i was explaining the basic teachings to a non-witness coworker the other day and we began talking about the incident in the garden of eden.
i told him that according to the society, if adam and eve had not sinned, the world today would be full of perfect human beings who never die.. he then asked "what about the animal kingdom?
would they be mortal and grow old and die and if so, how would god explain that to humans?".
But, Sylvia - "dominion" does not address whether they (animals I mean) were immortal in eden prior to original sin, nor if they will be so in the supposed "new earth" - that is all speculation.
It is obvious with or without Stephen's reference that in today's world man can kill animals and that they are not immortal - the question was what was the rule in the garden and in the new system? (assuming of course that you accept the JW theology on both)
i was explaining the basic teachings to a non-witness coworker the other day and we began talking about the incident in the garden of eden.
i told him that according to the society, if adam and eve had not sinned, the world today would be full of perfect human beings who never die.. he then asked "what about the animal kingdom?
would they be mortal and grow old and die and if so, how would god explain that to humans?".
I am confused: What exactly does that say about the immortality of animals, Steven???
I see nothing there unless you jump to conclusions.
i was explaining the basic teachings to a non-witness coworker the other day and we began talking about the incident in the garden of eden.
i told him that according to the society, if adam and eve had not sinned, the world today would be full of perfect human beings who never die.. he then asked "what about the animal kingdom?
would they be mortal and grow old and die and if so, how would god explain that to humans?".
This must be a tough one.
For the JWs, do you mean? Yes, it poses some pretty intractable questions. I am pretty sure that the literature printed out at one time that Adam, Cain, and Abel knew what life and death was because they had seen animals die; this would suppose that eden animals were not thought to be immortal. I am also pretty sure that I have not ever actually seen it published in the literature that in the new system the animals would be immortal.
i just learned that sometimes people give "green handshakes".
is this the same as bribing your way up?.
thanks for any posts..
I think this was more of an indictment of the WT Society (who notoriously refuses to pay their employees) than it is for the circuit overseers or the people who were trying to help them.
It is disgusting to see the WTBTS build up billions of dollars of net worth over the years on the backs of essentially slave labor - and then to turn these people out when they are old to fend for themselves.
http://www.themadjws.com/thercvbible.htm.
still troll?
i was explaining the basic teachings to a non-witness coworker the other day and we began talking about the incident in the garden of eden.
i told him that according to the society, if adam and eve had not sinned, the world today would be full of perfect human beings who never die.. he then asked "what about the animal kingdom?
would they be mortal and grow old and die and if so, how would god explain that to humans?".
From a purely scientific viewpoint, there are micro-biological reasons why DNA based creatures grow old and die. These apply to animals as well as humans and are inexorable due to natural aging of the DNA sequence, environmental issues, and the constant existence of external radiation.
I have heard (but cannot recall reading) the notion that animals could not (or would not) eat of "the tree of life" in the garden of eden, (or in the paradise earth) and thus could not be eternal. (i.e. - per witness reasoning).
I have also heard JWs say that dinosaurs and other ancient forms were deliberately extincted to make way for human society.
Many witness views are as naive as the priesthood of ancient Egypt when it comes to life sciences.
i tried searching the site to see if this has been commented on before, but i didn't see anything...hope i'm not asking a duplicate question.... at any rate, i was a born-in, so the elders that disfellowshipped me are the same ones that baptized me and the same ones that came to visit my parents when i was born...needless to say, they knew who i was and that i was not operating under a fake name or whatnot... .
for those who were not so lucky as to grow up around the exact same group of tyrannical men...is there any sort of identification that the elders require before granting a person "privileges"...does any sort of "proof" have to be presented before they baptize people to show they are who they say they are?
i.e., picture id, birth cert....anything?.
At first they were only giving them to people baptized for 25 years or more; they adjusted it to 15 years on Sunday.
Maybe they realized that they were refusing a book to people who they had willingly baptized at ages much less than 25 years. There have also been people baptized at less than 15 years in a number of cases.
Ironic indeed - you can get baptized at what age you want, but cannot have this stupid book???
being raised in the jehovah's witnesses for 44 years ( exited 7 years ago ) - i observed many different variables that made each witness tick or operate.
but one of the most common variables was witnesses wanting to excel in progressing to positions becoming elders, ministerial servants, or pioneers because then and only then would they be looked at as allegedly " spiritual " or closer to jehovah.
but i learned as years went by that having a " position " in the congregation didn't make a person anymore " spiritual " or closer to god than witnesses who were not in appointed positions.. myself- having been appointed a ministerial servant at the tender baby age of 20 yrs.
I can tell you that I personally knew a number of elders (this was back when the elder arrangement was first created) who accepted it only for their own personal status.
In one case, there was a guy who refused or avoided ANY elder responsibility other than giving the traveling hour talks. This guy NEVER TO ANYONE's KNOWLEDGE EVER WENT FROM DOOR TO DOOR or did any other kind of "field service". He turned in time, assumption was made that it was had by "incidental witnessing". He was fairly well off and was a reasonably generous contributor to the congregation. He was also one of the most arrogant persons I have ever run into - inside or out of the JW world.
I heard from inside sources years after I left in 1979 that he was eventually deleted by a new CO for "insincerity".
This was an extreme example - but not the only one that held the position of servant or elder out of desire for the sake of appearances.
people, please don't be angry at me, but do you sometimes ask yourselves this question?
i do..
then the Bible is wrong!
Oh horrors - then the Bible did not ACTUALLY SAY that the millennium rule of Christ would begin in 1975, that the creative days are 7,000 years long, that medical vaccinations are injecting demonic pus into your body, that aluminum cooking utensils will give you deadly disease, that the human heart can think like a brain (usually like a very bad brain), that the USSR was the king of the north and would dominate the USA, as so on and on and on? I am shocked. You know, serial killer and cannibal Jeffrey Dahmer may well have been a very good chef (on his "good" days) but I don't think I would have wanted to have dinner at his house - knowing what we know now.
watching religulous.
http://www.paganizingfaithofyeshua.netfirms.com/comparsison_horus_jesus_chart.htm (more charts on site).
comparison of the lives of horus and jesus: coincidence?mstheme.
Don't know how accurate all that is (both sides of chart), but it is disturbingly similar. Especially to die-hard evangilists, I should think.
There was an old guy who had a series of books on Myths in History and did specials on public TV that also mentioned this years ago.
