Posts by dgp

32

Danish article about shunning. Very interesting.

by worried in

i just found a danish article in "jyllands posten" (yea, the ones who printed drawings of muhammed once).

i hope that my translation is ok, otherwise, please tell me if there is somewhere you dont understand it.. .

jehovahs witnesses to be investigatedmembers are encouraged by the leaders, to cease contact with those leaving the society.. .

Danish article about shunning. Very interesting.

by worried in

i just found a danish article in "jyllands posten" (yea, the ones who printed drawings of muhammed once).

i hope that my translation is ok, otherwise, please tell me if there is somewhere you dont understand it.. .

jehovahs witnesses to be investigatedmembers are encouraged by the leaders, to cease contact with those leaving the society.. .

»As politicians, we are not to mendle with peoples private, social relations. But if the leaders of a religious society recommends, that its members should avoid contact and association with persons, who leave the society, we have a serious problem« Bente Dahl states.

Exactly.

35

Well I've been 10 years on here

by mouthy in

jw
friends

am i still the oldest?

84???

?and the stupidist?.

dgp

Well, dear Grace, you're the only person who has voluntarily adopted me as a son (if only for Christmas). What can I say? My parents had no choice; you did.

48

No need to know Hebrew and Greek for Bible Translation, according to the Watchtower's Branch Organization Manual revised 2003

by dgp in

i copied this from page 153 of the branch organization manual, effective: december 15, 1977, revised: february 2003. .

it is not necessary for bible translators to know.

by using this file, such scriptures will be ren-.

dgp

Botchtower, no discussion as to Arabic.

According to this blog in Spanish (http://blog.lengua-e.com/2008/palabras-de-origen-arabe/), Arabic contributed with more Spanish words than any other language except Latin. Words that you can find in English, too, such as alcohol, Aldebaran, arsenal, adobe, algebra, algorithm, Gibraltar, zenith (cenit in Spanish), nadir, azimuth, alkali, sugar (azúcar), tariff (tarifa) and, guess what? "atalaya", the word for watchtower.

According to

https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/es/wiki/Léxico_del_español#Pr.C3.A9stamos_de_otras_lenguas

El léxico del español está constituido por alrededor de un 70% de palabras derivadas del latín, un 12% derivadas del griego, un 8% del árabe y un 10% de palabras derivadas de distintas lenguas, como el extinto germánico, las lenguas celtas, el extinto íbero, el vasco, el catalán, el gallego, el caló, las lenguas amerindias; como el maya, el náhuatl, quechua, el aymara, el guaraní y el tupí, las lenguas caribes; como el caribe y el taíno, y palabras de lenguas austronesias, como del filipino y del tagalo. Así como palabras de lenguas como el inglés, el francés, el italiano, el portugués, el alemán, el japonés, el chino, el ruso, el bereber etc.

My translation:

Approximately 70% of Spanish words come from Latin, 12% from Greek, 8% of Arabic and 10% of different other languages, such as the now extinct Germanic, the Celtic languages, the extinct Iberian, Basque, Catalonian, Galician, Romany, Amerindian languages such as Mayan, Nahuatl, Quechua, Aymara, Guarani and Tupi, the languages of the Caribbean, such as Caribbean and Taino, and words from Austronesian languagues, such as Filipino and Tagalog. Also, words from languages such as English, French, Italian, Portuguese, German, Japanese, Chinese, Russian, Berber, et cetera.

Now, the origin of English words, according to the Wikipedia, is as follows:

https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/English_lexicon#Word_origins

Numerous sets of statistics have been proposed to demonstrate the proportionate origins of English vocabulary. None, as of yet, is considered definitive by most linguists.

A computerised survey of about 80,000 words in the old Shorter Oxford Dictionary (3rd ed.) was published in Ordered Profusion by Thomas Finkenstaedt and Dieter Wolff (1973)[91] that estimated the origin of English words as follows:

Influences in English vocabulary

Langue d'oïl, including French and Old Norman: 28.3%
Latin, including modern scientific and technical Latin: 28.24%
Germanic languages (including words directly inherited from Old English; does not include Germanic words coming from the Germanic element in French, Latin or other Romance languages): 25%
Greek: 5.32%
No etymology given: 4.03%
Derived from proper names: 3.28%
All other languages: less than 1%

A survey by Joseph M. Williams in Origins of the English Language of 10,000 words taken from several thousand business letters gave this set of statistics:[92]

French (langue d'oïl): 41%
"Native" English: 33%
Latin: 15%
Old Norse: 2%
Dutch: 1%
Other: 10%

I will start from here.

There is a difference in the percentage of Spanish words that each source gives as originating from Greek and Arabic, but the difference is not that great. In any case, you'd say that 20% of all Spanish words originates in either Arabic or Greek. According to the Wikipedia, Greek contributes with 5.32% of English words, and "less than 1%" of the other words come from "all other languages", among which one would include Arabic. Spanish, 20% of Greek and Arabic, English, say, 6% (and we're being generous here).

Let's start with Arabic.

The assumption is that, Arabic and Hebrew being Semitic languages, they are close. Since Arabic did heavily influence Spanish, then there has to be some similarity between Hebrew and Spanish.

I don't know how close Arabic and Hebrew really are, but, according to the Encyclopaedia Britannica 2011 (DVD), in its article about the Hebrew language:

Modern Hebrew, based on the biblical language, contains many innovations designed to meet modern needs; it is the only colloquial speech based on a written language. The pronunciation is a modification of that used by the Sephardic (Hispano-Portuguese) Jews rather than that of the Ashkenazic (East European) Jews.

The Wikipedia, in turn, contains this:

https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/es/wiki/Idioma_hebreo
Comparación con el español

Las coincidencias entre el español y el hebreo antiguo son escasas, mientras que las existentes entre el español y el hebreo moderno son más numerosas. La razón de esto es que la lengua antigua tenía una exigua influencia de la lenguas origen del español, el latín y el griego, mientras que el hebreo moderno ha adoptado numerosos préstamos de ambos idiomas. Además, la adopción por el Estado de Israel de la norma de pronunciación sefardí (frente a la ashkenazí) supuso que la pronunciación moderna del hebreo sea casi igual a la de los judíos expulsados de España en 1492, y naturalmente próxima a la del español. Un ejemplo de ambas similitudes serían los nombres hebreos de numerosas ciencias: ???????? (biologuia), ???????? (gueografia), ???????? (historia) etc.

The "??????" above are the spaces occupied by Hebrew characters in the original.

My translation:

Comparison with Spanish

The similarities between Spanish and Ancient Hebrew are few, while similarities between Spanish and Modern Hebrew are more numerous. The reason for this is that [Ancient Hebrew] had little influence from the languages that gave origin to Spanish, [namely] Latin and Greek, while Modern Hebrew has borrowed numerous terms from both languages. Also, the adoption by the State of Israel of the Sephardic pronunciation standard (as opposed to the Ashkenazi standard) resulted in the fact that modern pronunciation of Hebrew is almost the same as that of the Jews expelled from Spain in 1492, and, naturally, close to that of Spanish. An example of the many similarities would be the name of numerous sciences: Biology, Geography, History, et cetera.

So I rest my case regarding Hebrew. Spanish has little resemblance to Ancient Hebrew, which is the language of the Bible. On the other hand, Modern Hebrew adopted a pronunciation standard that is largely based on that of the Sephardic Jews, to whom I alluded in one of my previous posts. Sephardic Jews speak Spanish, people, even if their language is an old form of the language. Those of you who speak Spanish, check the link I gave above, and read; you will have no problem doing that if you really master the Spanish language. The assumption that Hebrew is similar to Spanish because Hebrew is similar to Arabic is doubtful from the very beginning, but has been disproved. Ancient Hebrew (the language of the Bible) does not have much in common with Spanish. Ancient Hebrew existed in written form and had a literature centuries before Spanish even existed, and here I mean Spanish in its ancient form, which is not easily readable to most of us. Those familiar with Spanish will not let me lie. How many people can read the Poema del Cid in the original words? It's pretty much like The Canterbury Tales for speakers of English.

And what about Greek?

The argument here is as follows: Greek contributed with more words to Spanish than to English. Therefore, Spanish is much more like Greek than English is.

According to

https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/es/wiki/Helenismo

En español, los helenismos suelen ser términos científicos o técnicos: átomo, hemorragia, hematología... Algunos helenismos fueron traducidos por los romanos a su lengua, el latín, y de esa manera transvasados a ella y por tanto al castellano, de forma que poseemos dos palabras para designar una misma realidad. Por ejemplo, el griego metamorfosis, compuesto por el prefijo meta-, la raíz morfo y el sufijo -sis, se tradujo en latín por transformatio, compuesto de la traducción del prefijo griego meta- por su correspondiente latino, trans-, del lexema latino forma, equivalente al griego morfo, y del sufijo latino -tío, que posee idénticas funciones que el griego -osis, lo que redunda en el doblete castellano metamorfosis/transformación.

In Spanish, most words of Greek origin are scientific or technical terms: atom, haemorrhage, haematology... Some words of Greek origin were translated by the Romans into their own tongue, Latin, were thus transferred into [Latin] and later to Castilian, in such a way that we have two words to designate the same reality. For example, the Greek word metamorphosis, formed by the translation of the Greek prefix meta- by its Latin equivalent, trans- and the Latin lexeme - forma, equivalent to the Greek word morpho, and the Latin suffix -tio, whose functions are identical to those of the Greek -osis; all this ended in the Castilian duo metamorphosis/transformation.
Can we say that most words of Koiné Greek -that of the Bible- are scientific and technical terms?

For one minute, let's say that Greek is actually closer to Spanish than to English. Let's say I was wrong. In that case,

Why should speakers of Spanish read a Bible translated from English? Why should "discrepancies" be checked using the English version, not the Greek?

The same source I use above regarding the origin of English words is useful to note that there is a wide divide between English and Spanish. This isn't something that the posters on this forum know only too well, so I won't dwell on it anymore. So, with different words, I repeat my question. Why should a Spanish bible be translated into English first, and then into Spanish? Or Portuguese, or French, or Italian, or Catalonian?

Would translators of the Bible into Spanish do well to learn Greek and Hebrew?

Let us turn the same argument from Watchtower apologists upside down. If Spanish is (according to them) closer to Greek and Hebrew, would translators of the Bible into English do well to learn Greek and Hebrew? What about translators into Quechua? Malayalam? Rarotongan? Cambodian? Korean? Japanese?

All this is just for the sake of argumentation. It should stand to reason that a translation straight from the source is better than a translation through a go-between.

The Roman Catholic Church (good ol' Harlot) demands that priests learn Hebrew, Greek and Latin.

https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Priesthood_(Catholic_Church)#Education

Education

The Canon law of the Catholic Church holds that the priesthood is a sacred and perpetual vocational state, not just a profession, and regulates the formation and studies of clerics. In the Latin rite, this legislation is found in canons 232–264. As a general rule, education is extensive and lasts at least five or six years, depending on the national Programme of Priestly Formation.[19]

In the United States, priests must have a four-year university degree plus an additional four to five years of graduate-level seminary formation in theology with a focus on Biblical research. A Master of Divinity is the most common degree.
In Scotland, there is a mandatory year of preparation before entering seminary for a year dedicated to spiritual formation, followed by several years of study.
In Europe, Australasia and North America, seminarians usually graduate with a Master of Divinity or a Master of Theology degree, which is a four-year professional degree (as opposed to a Master of Arts which is an academic degree). At least four years are to be in theological studies at the major seminary.[20]
In Africa, Asia and South America, programmes are more flexible, being developed according to the age and academic abilities of those preparing for ordination.

Regardless of where a person prepares for ordination, it includes not only academics but also human, social, spiritual and pastoral formation. The purpose of seminary education is ultimately to prepare men to be pastors of souls.[21] In the end, however, each individual bishop is responsible for the official call to priesthood, and only they may ordain. Any ordinations done before the normally scheduled time (before study completion) must have the explicit approval of the bishop; any such ordinations done more than a year in advance must have the approval of the Holy See.

From "Master of Divinity" you can jump to

https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Master_of_Divinity

Christian MDiv programs generally include studies in Christian ministry and theology. Coursework usually includes studies in New Testament Greek, theology, philosophy, church history, pastoral theology, Hebrew Bible (Old Testament), and New Testament studies. Many programs also contain courses in church growth, ecclesiology, evangelism, systematic theology, Christian education, liturgical studies, Latin, Hebrew, canon law, and patristics. The degree may or may not include a thesis.

Then, Master of Theology:

https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Master_of_Theology

In North America, the Master of Theology (Th.M. or M.Th.) is considered by the Association of Theological Schools to be the minimum educational credential for teaching theological subjects in accredited schools. The degree is usually earned after the Master of Divinity (M.Div.) or an equivalent of three years of graduate studies in theology. This degree can range from a one or two years of specialized advanced studies in theological research. It may or may not require comprehensive subject exams and a research thesis. The Th.M. is usually designed as an advanced academic degree with an emphasis on academic research. [citation needed]

And these are not necessarily the guys who will undertake Bible translation. Why can't the Watchtower do something like this with its translators?

Why is is that, regarding Bible translation, the Harlot puts a lot more effort than Jehovah's (self-appointed) organization?

24

For your reading pleasure, we added 200 more documents to the Watchtower Documents website

by AndersonsInfo in

http://www.watchtowerdocuments.com/documents/1800.html.

http://www.watchtowerdocuments.com/documents/1900-1919.html.

http://www.watchtowerdocuments.com/jw-stories.html.

dgp

I was wondering if anyone knows of a similar collection being kept in other languages, primarily Spanish. I make this comment on the basis of the wonderful usefulness of the Anderson's website.

6

Having your say: Jehovah's Witnesses have NONE

by Terry in

jesus was the leader, the rabbi, the teacher and he chose his apostles.. they followed him, they listened, they obeyed.. but--did they have their say?.

did they ask stupid questions and get answers?.

did they have opinions that were voiced, heard and answered?.

dgp

Bookmarked.

48

No need to know Hebrew and Greek for Bible Translation, according to the Watchtower's Branch Organization Manual revised 2003

by dgp in

i copied this from page 153 of the branch organization manual, effective: december 15, 1977, revised: february 2003. .

it is not necessary for bible translators to know.

by using this file, such scriptures will be ren-.

dgp

Paulapollos, I agree with most of what you say, and I am under the impression that you made the same points I made, only in a more succint and readable way.

May I just raise your attention to one point:

Nobody is ever required to have any knowledge of Greek and Hebrew, understandably, since most people do not have familiarity with such languages.

Yeah. Most people are not familiar with Chinese, either, and you have to master Chinese for people to ask you to do a translation from or into that language. I am aware that most people don't speak Greek or Hebrew. That is not the point in question. The point in question is, this people are working from a translation, not an original, and then a translation that was made by people who were not exactly the best candidates to do the job. These people are required to be true to that questionable translation, and, should they find a doctrinal problem, they need to follow what the organization says, not what the Bible says. The organization is claiming that they translate from English consulting the originals, and that is a blatant lie, used only for the general public. They, and the translators working under their control, know that no use is made of the originals.

Simple point: If you want people to devote their lives to "what the Bible really teaches", would you please be decent enough to have it correctly translated, no matter the language? Would you please recognize doctrinal problems - meaning mistakes in your doctrine- whenever they come up? Would you please not lie about how the translation is really made?

Now, if anyone would give me the more updated copy of that manual, I would be very happy.

TD: I am glad you made this post. I didn't know those inconsistencies appear in the Book of Mormon. Your post is not tangential, in my opinion. A qualified translator would notice that "synagogue" does not belong in the book. If a similar thing happened within the Watchtower and the translator asked uncomfortable questions, those questions would be swept under the rug, according to Watchtower procedure. This would be right before Jehovah's eyes, or at least the organization.

Wonderment, what about my questions?

You keep saying the same thing: "The ENGLISH NWT was made by great scholars, namely Fred Franz and George Gangas, and others". Were you there to see them pick Greek and Hebrew originals and laboriously translate? What about ALL OTHER TRANSLATIONS?

I can answer one of your questions right now:

Now, if he was able to dominate those languages the way he did, why would someone here in this website doubt that he was not able to dominate the bible languages?

We have no proof that he "dominated" (meaning "master") those languages. Now, tell me: Does the fact that you "dominate" one foreign language automatically means you will "dominate" another?

2

Jo Jo Billingsley

by dgp in

jo jo billingsley was one of lynyrd skynyrd's "honkettes".

i thought she was incredibly gorgeous and hot as hell.

i think her grace shows wonderfully in the you tube video i'm embedding below.

dgp

Broken, you're not looking carefully. The woman was full of grace. But thanks for the comment .

My more general point being, whatever grace she had, she lost when she became righteous.

8

Cyrus the Great was the Jewish Messiah?

by sabastious in

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/history_of_ancient_israel_and_judah.

the biblical historythe hebrew bible contains "myths, legends and folktales, sagas, heroic epics, oral traditions, annals, biographies, narrative histories, novellae, belles lettres, proverbs and wisdom-sayings, poetry (including erotic poems ...), prophecy, apocalyptic, and much more ... the whole finally woven into a composite, highly complex literary fabric sometime in the hellenistic era.

"[2] although tradition ascribes them to times and authors contemporaneous with events, they were in fact written in many cases considerably after the times they describe and by authors with a clear religious and nationalist agenda, and it is therefore critical to treat them with circumspection.[3].

dgp

It is very obvious this is not what Jews themselves thought at the time Christianity began. Or today, for that matter. They are still waiting for their Messiah.

2

Jo Jo Billingsley

by dgp in

jo jo billingsley was one of lynyrd skynyrd's "honkettes".

i thought she was incredibly gorgeous and hot as hell.

i think her grace shows wonderfully in the you tube video i'm embedding below.

dgp

Jo Jo Billingsley was one of Lynyrd Skynyrd's "Honkettes". I thought she was incredibly gorgeous and hot as hell. I think her grace shows wonderfully in the You Tube video I'm embedding below. She became a born-again Christian in 1980, after the plane crash that killed several members of the band, and passed away last year. I just wanted to make a tribute to who she was before she lost her grace to religion.

I am sorry to think that Ms. Billingsley herself would not agree with me and would perhaps find my remark extremely offensive. I would be very sorry.

I can only regret I never met her. Boy, would I have tried to marry her...

In case someone doesn't know who she is in the video, she's the burning hot one in the white dress...

Sweet Home Alabama.