Posts by simon17

30

How Long Can WT Stonewall The Mounting Evidence For Evolution/Age of Man?

by Room 215 in

the evidence for some form of evolution -- and the age of earth and life upon it -- is mounting almost daily.

how long can the wts insulate its followers from the incontrovertible evidence without lapsing into total irrelevance?

what do you think?.

simon17

The 607/587 thing is critical to the authority of the WTS and to its Governing Body. They claim to be the sole earthly representative on earth of Jehovah's Government that began to rule towards earth in 1914. That date is based on a calculation that includes 607 BCE for the destruction of Jerusalem. This is the reason WTS apologists rise so strongly to defend that date. See how much effort their JW doyen Furuli expends on the subject.

I'm not saying its not an important piece of information. I'm saying its not an important concern to the JW Brass. To be a problem two things must exist:

1) You're wrong (check)

2) People must have a way of being confronted with the fact that its wrong.

You dont learn about the destruction of Jerusalem in school. There are no TV shows about it. No one in the general public knows (or cares) when this happened. So there is no reason to ever really question the date... therefore it is not an important concern.

112

Can anyone come up with a morally acceptable reason for waiting thousands of years to end wickedness?

by gubberningbody in

jw
friends

i can't.. some bar-bet between jehovah and satan balanced against all the evil allowed just doesn't wash..

simon17

Shame on you White Dove!

If he had ended things earlier, then the angels would all be asking one another "perhaps if God only allowed humans to develop communism and nazism, then things would have been different and makind would be able to rule themselves". If that were the case, nothing would be solved at all!

24

So my Dad is finally out... And I'm as mad as hell!

by artemis.design in

jw
friends

my story isn't very interesting.

i left as a teen, never baptised.

a plesant but distant relationship with my jw family.

simon17

This is tricky. Basically I read your emotions as this:

* He chose the organization over me. Fine, I understand if one's mind is controlled and they choose their everlasting salvation over their family with legitimate hopes that this is the best way to help that family member gain everlasting salvation. Thats annoying but understandable.

* But if he then chooses money over that same everlasting salvation, then that leaves you squarely in 3rd place.

I wouldn't hold it against him... but I wouldn't be going out of my way to be there for him.

36

(For Christians) Why should Muslims question the Koran?

by SweetBabyCheezits in

i'm wondering about this hypothetical scenario:.

suppose..... a young muslim (non-radical/moderate) in a middle-eastern country has no access to the bible or any form of christianityhe's keenly aware of other non-christian faiths and the loyal adherents of those faithsaside from a blind faith in the koran (and, in turn, allah) he is an intelligent and logical thinkerhe doesn't see any flaws in his reasoning, no matter how illogical it may seem to outsidersokay, now based on the above suppositions..... what kind of introspective thinking might lead him to identify his own flawed reasoning so that he eventually realizes the koran is not a revelation of god?

is such a thing possible?

simon17

Simon you sound like you are in field service ;-)

Well the TMS tought me something lol... Not really... but it does help build you in you some public speaking skills and reinforces the core concepts of building a persuasive argument. Now... applying what I know after, if the persuasive argument is ALSO logical, its even harder for the object haha

36

(For Christians) Why should Muslims question the Koran?

by SweetBabyCheezits in

i'm wondering about this hypothetical scenario:.

suppose..... a young muslim (non-radical/moderate) in a middle-eastern country has no access to the bible or any form of christianityhe's keenly aware of other non-christian faiths and the loyal adherents of those faithsaside from a blind faith in the koran (and, in turn, allah) he is an intelligent and logical thinkerhe doesn't see any flaws in his reasoning, no matter how illogical it may seem to outsidersokay, now based on the above suppositions..... what kind of introspective thinking might lead him to identify his own flawed reasoning so that he eventually realizes the koran is not a revelation of god?

is such a thing possible?

simon17

I would approach from the fact of how other to other religions THEY are born into are just as devout as he.

Q's:

* You agree that, as much as you deeply believe your belief to be right, the same exact feeling is felt by devout Catholics, Jews, Hindus, JWs, etc etc etc, yes?

* What is God's view of such ones (actually this answer may even surprise you and will determine the rest of the conversation... eventually you'll pin down that Islamic is the RIGHT way)

* Had you been born Christian in a Christian land, what religion would you be now? What religion would your dad be right now if he had been raised in a christian? Your mom? Your Immam? (Sp?) Your brothers/sister? All your friends?

Going in that direction will usually get people into one of two corners... God is either wildly unfair in the way in which he allows humans to attempt to reach him OR Muslims are inherently better and more religious than anyone. He's not going to be in either corner.

There are other discussions points that you can do very much the same thing. Ask him why demons are in the world? Who created them, etc etc etc...

You can also attack the unity of Muslims in general to show its not an us vs. you religious issue. What does his female family wear on their heads? Are they simply dressed modestly? Are they veiled with headcovers? Are they wearing burkas (sp?)? Whatever the case may be, probably not the latter, then there is entire muslim nations with THEIR interpretation of the Quran under which the behaviour of the women in his life would be considered obscene and worthy of punishment. Further: do the women in his life get educated? Can they walk hand in hand with their significant other? etc etc etc. The wildly different application of Islamic law is just as staggering as the wildly different denominations of the Christian sect.

112

Can anyone come up with a morally acceptable reason for waiting thousands of years to end wickedness?

by gubberningbody in

jw
friends

i can't.. some bar-bet between jehovah and satan balanced against all the evil allowed just doesn't wash..

simon17

My main problem is this. The "challenge" made by Satan was that people would not serve Jehovah if their life was hard. Jehovah said "Bet!" So, what the Watchtower is saying is that because currently much less than one percent of the population of Earth is serving Jehovah, that somehow this makes God a winner? What kind of math is that? It appears that not only has Satan won, but it was a beat down of Biblical proportions. Can we just declare him winner and move on?

This is actually not the worst part though. Yes, when Satan's conditions were present, more people went Satan's way. Fine.

Then God gets a crack during Paradise and what happens AFTER the 1000 years. Despite the perfect conditions, the number who choose Satan is STILL like the sands of the sea compared to the faithful.

Satan wins this challenge under any condition, and he wins it going away...

14

Are the numbers accurate?

by Joshinaz in

jw
friends

they claim they are 7 million and growing.

is this true?

i haven't been to a meeting in 12 years but i know of at least 100 people i grew up with that have left the congregation.

simon17

I'd say the numbers are accurately reported by the WTBS. Like was said, a lot of those field service numbers are either fluff or fabricated. My time report is always a "roll-the-dice" kind of affair. But what gets written on the slips I'm pretty sure is accurately reflected.

The "growth" in industrialized nations, if there is any (most of Europe is negative) is at or under worldwide population growth rates. It can easily be explained by born-ins and then some converts to take the place of the churn of DF'd people. Non-English nations lead the charge.

If there was any cooking of the books, you would never see an increase in worldwide partakers IMO.

32

How long until the WT Society gives "new light" about the Internet?

by DagothUr in

jw
friends

the watchtower and awake have given some warnings in the past concerning materials available via the internet.

apostate and porn sites, violent games, useless and frivolous entertainment, and so on.

for now, they are contended with just giving friendly warnings.

simon17

They could never do this and it has nothign to do with doubters. No one would listen to this counsel and you would inherently start losing your control by making an edict that can not be enforced and will not be followed.

30

How Long Can WT Stonewall The Mounting Evidence For Evolution/Age of Man?

by Room 215 in

the evidence for some form of evolution -- and the age of earth and life upon it -- is mounting almost daily.

how long can the wts insulate its followers from the incontrovertible evidence without lapsing into total irrelevance?

what do you think?.

simon17

But it is not incorrect. Its not like you're going to do something useful with the correct number of ~5 Billion year anyway. Its just a number that is hard to comprehend as it is (I have heard it said from the platform for what its worth). And its certainly not going to make anyone question the organization because its not wrong.

Yes they say humans have only been here for 6000 years but so does 50% of the country so... its not like they stick out as ridiculuos.

30

How Long Can WT Stonewall The Mounting Evidence For Evolution/Age of Man?

by Room 215 in

the evidence for some form of evolution -- and the age of earth and life upon it -- is mounting almost daily.

how long can the wts insulate its followers from the incontrovertible evidence without lapsing into total irrelevance?

what do you think?.

simon17

this will go on a long time:

*WTS does NOT teach the earth is only 6000 years old. They say it can be many millions so they are in line with science on that (and ahead of a large portion of the US including all the fundamentalist religions)

* The 607/587 thing doesn't matter because there is NO information that people come across regarding this. Evolution is taught in schools. There are facts that are very public. 587 is just a random date buried in a dusty history book that no one will ever see. So that will never ever change because no one has any reason to ever question it.

* Evolution of man.... well.... thats going to last a long time too. They are wrong, I believe, but so is half of the country. Its not a very extreme position to take. In fact they take a less extreme approach to all this than many religions so as long as they are not behind the curve (of the everyday American not of science), they'll be fine.