simon17

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Posts by simon17

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  9

  Did the U.S. Overreact to the 9/11 Attacks? Undoubtedly

  by Rabbit in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  ever wanted to know your risks of being killed by lightning or a terrorist ?

  read on...and make a comment.

  this oughta be interesting... did the u.s. overreact to the 9/11 attacks?

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  simon17

  This is very misleading, mainly that is ONLY considering the loss of life from terrorism. Certainly the 9/11 attacks were NOT a major per capita killer. Howerver, what about the other effects:

  * Economic value of destroyed property: these attacks brought major damage/destruction to three of the most expensive structures in the entire country. The cost of the attacks alone cost billions and billions of dollars. This was not a bus blowing up where the loss of life is comparatively high in a small state in Israel but where the cost of destroyed infastructe is minimal.

  * Symbolic value of destroyed the most important landmarks and the effect on the country's psyche. Equivalently, by this argument you could say presidential assassination risks are minimal because they kill 1:300,000,000. But the symbolic and resulting implications of the TARGET are massive.

  * Economic Results of Attacks: Such large scale attacks crashed the stock market, nearly bankrupt the airline indursty (or did), and contributed to widespread fear and instabilty. THe cost of future attacks could have brought down the entire system.

  So no, they did not overreact (aside from the stupid foray into Iraq, but that was just Dubya being Dubya)
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  44

  Dec 15th WT: "Be like Solomon and don't go to university / don't be like Solomon and join a sports team!"

  by cedars in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  thanks to 'gayle' for bringing our attention to the fact that the december 15th watchtower has now been uploaded to jw.org.

  it doesn't take long to reach the first juicy bit on pages 8 and 9, this time regarding higher education:.

  it would be good to ask, am i taking to heart solomons example of treasuring divine wisdom?

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  simon17

  "extracurricular, masturbation, fornication....I knew they were very bad - never had a clue what any of it was."

  Thats funny, same here. I wish I had urbandictionary.com when I was growing up because it was such a source of guilt to think I was doing some of this stuff, which I didn't even understand and didn't even really know if i was doing it or not. Crazy, crazy crazy
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  68

  Your top 5 most irritating doctrines/practices?

  by cedars in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  it's clear that virtually everyone on here is infuriated by wt teachings/doctrines/practices, but i would really like to know what is of most concern to people who frequent this forum.. here is my top 5, number 1 being the most significant/infuriating:.

  the disfellowshipping practice - expanded to include family members (but not parents) who are old enough to leave home.

  wrecks families and creates abject fear once people find out the truth about the organization.the blood issue - another unmerciful teaching, but one that costs lives.unquestioned authority of governing body - a handful of men make life-altering decisions as representatives of a larger group of people who they never see or speak to, and yet they demand unquestioning obedience on pain of being disfellowshipped.failed prophecy - the fulfilment of huge swathes of bible prophecy, including revelation, has been attributed to the events of the early 20th century, and the actions of a small group of men.two-tier christianity - faithful and discreet slave are anointed who go to heaven to whom ransom provisions apply directly, whereas remainder, or "great crowd" stay on earth and form a sub-class, only access benefits of ransom through fds.i realise that many of these issues are inter-related, but that's roughly how i would put them.

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  simon17

  1 - Belief in the flood. Got me going. Completely ignorant belief in this day and age. Its probably as bad as continuing to believe in a geo-centric solar system.

  2- disfellowshipping and shunning. Enough said on that one.

  3- Babylon destroyed in 607. Also a preponderance of evidence against this. It wouldn't even be as bad if they said they realized all the evidence was against it but they were going with their odd interpretation of scripture. To deceptively force the evidence is just insane.

  4- the need to settle the "court case" of universal sovreignty. Its illogical on every level for an all-powerful, not to mention all-loving, God to solve things in the way it is purported

  5- I think the trying to force the creation account to fit scientific discovery is inane, it is so clearly written in a way that is demolished by science, but then day is not really "day" and "create" is not really "create". Its really a pathetic attempt.
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  322

  WT Nov. 1, 2011 (public) - When Was Ancient Jerusalem Destroyed - Part 2

  by AnnOMaly in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  out now.. yes, yes, yessssss!

  on p. 26-27 they talk about how the lunar positions on vat 4956 fit 588/7 bce!!!.

  "clearly, much of the astronomical data in vat 4956 fits the year 588 b.c.e.

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  simon17

  Rather than there being a GAP between Amel-Marduk and Neriglissar as the Watchtower suggests in footnote 10, the tablet they cite in footnote 9 actually shows a three-month OVERLAP in the documents from the reigns of Amel-Marduk and Neriglissar.

  Just a note on this: I think that is what the WT was trying to say in footnote 9: that like the supposed 6 month potential overlap mentioned in the paragraph, these two kings had a tablet which suggested a potential overlap. I think I'm reading that correct.

  Also wanted to say that simply wonderful work on this, great research and dedication to showing how twisted most of this disucssion has been.
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  322

  WT Nov. 1, 2011 (public) - When Was Ancient Jerusalem Destroyed - Part 2

  by AnnOMaly in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  out now.. yes, yes, yessssss!

  on p. 26-27 they talk about how the lunar positions on vat 4956 fit 588/7 bce!!!.

  "clearly, much of the astronomical data in vat 4956 fits the year 588 b.c.e.

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  simon17

  Rather than there being a GAP between Amel-Marduk and Neriglissar as the Watchtower suggests in footnote 10, the tablet they cite in footnote 9 actually shows a three-month OVERLAP in the documents from the reigns of Amel-Marduk and Neriglissar.

  Just a note on this: I think that is what the WT was trying to say in footnote 9: that like the supposed 6 month potential overlap mentioned in the paragraph, these two kings had a tablet which suggested a potential overlap. I think I'm reading that correct.

  Also wanted to say that simply wonderful work on this, great research and dedication to showing how twisted most of this disucssion has been.
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  23

  25 ATTRIBUTES OF A CULT - How does the WTS rate?

  by cantleave in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  this list is taken from a college course called the psychology of fundamentalismoffered by the university of texas.

  1. the leader is charismatic and often militaristically demanding.

  2. the leader is always right.

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  simon17

  The charismatic leader-by-committee actually does fit.

  Ever seen how enthralled JWs are when they know a speaker is a GB member? Even if he is dull and boring they can say they were there when so-and=so gave the public talk. How exciting for them.

  Sometimes it isn't the charisma of the person(s) but rather what people impose upon them.

  No, not really. You're describing #3 (people view leaders with awe). The leaders themselves are pretty boring and reclusive almost.

  The really interesting question, if you gave this list to a JW, how many would THEY identify as being true. Ten?
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  322

  WT Nov. 1, 2011 (public) - When Was Ancient Jerusalem Destroyed - Part 2

  by AnnOMaly in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  out now.. yes, yes, yessssss!

  on p. 26-27 they talk about how the lunar positions on vat 4956 fit 588/7 bce!!!.

  "clearly, much of the astronomical data in vat 4956 fits the year 588 b.c.e.

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  simon17

  Folks, let me tell you what we are up against (in case there are some of you who don't know).

  I showed this material to my wife (who knows of my skepticism, esp on this subject). Her response was: "I don't want to look at that! I think it's all bullshit! You have nothing to prove that what is being said is true. There is nothing to prove that what you are reading isn't all fabricated bullshit!

  Say you are doing exactly what the Watchower said to do at the conclusion of the article: WHY NOT EXAMINE THE EVIDENCE FOR YOURSELF. Ask her why she isn't following the WT's very own direction
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  322

  WT Nov. 1, 2011 (public) - When Was Ancient Jerusalem Destroyed - Part 2

  by AnnOMaly in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  out now.. yes, yes, yessssss!

  on p. 26-27 they talk about how the lunar positions on vat 4956 fit 588/7 bce!!!.

  "clearly, much of the astronomical data in vat 4956 fits the year 588 b.c.e.

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  simon17

  I summerized my own thoughts, paragraph by paragraph, along with some of the throughts of everyone here in a google document:

  https://docs.google.com/document/d/16wDBQn2xeVePilre174R5w8G2eONFF2gP7vFXRMMJTE/edit?hl=en_US

  I may have made some errors or omissions, so I left it open to editing publicly. If you want to add anything, feel free. Unfortunately, the formatting got messed up as it converted to a google doc but oh well.

  I also did not really get into the whole "70 years of serving vs 70 years of desolation" thing. Its a pretty minor point and although I agree with those here, thats not a very convincing line of argument either way.
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  18

  DEBUNKING BIBLE MIRACLES: Joshua telling the sun to stand still

  by Black Man in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  so, i'd love to start some threads debunking biblical miracles as the fairytale fiction that they are.

  the first i'd like to start off with is jehovah supposedly making the sun stand still to allow joshua's army enough daylight to conquer the amorites.

  here's a quote sentex.net explaining why this would be completely impossible:.

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  simon17

  You can't debunk a "miracle". By definition, a mircale is something that even believers realize they can't explain so they invoke an "all-mighty" creature as the explanation as to why this impossible thing happened. So there is no point in saying "this is impossible because...". They already know and accept that without God it wouldn't happen.
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  322

  WT Nov. 1, 2011 (public) - When Was Ancient Jerusalem Destroyed - Part 2

  by AnnOMaly in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  out now.. yes, yes, yessssss!

  on p. 26-27 they talk about how the lunar positions on vat 4956 fit 588/7 bce!!!.

  "clearly, much of the astronomical data in vat 4956 fits the year 588 b.c.e.

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  simon17

  I discovered the purpose of these articles.

  I received an email from an elder telling me there was more information on the subject and directed me to the latest 11/1 Watchtower.

  There we go, subject addressed, shepherding call done.

  I think this is GREAT actually. I'm expecting the same from an elder I've discussed this with and will simply say "oh yes I've read those already. They are among the most intellectually dishonest pieces I've seen yet. I'd be happy to sit down with you and point out the academic flaws, incorrect logic and false presumptions line by line with you."

  Its very easy actually if you have even done the slightest bit of research. Some of the paragraphs in thre are just downright twisted and anyone (should) be able to clearly see the deviousness of it. Not quoting researchers. Switching between calender systems to fool people. Saying on thing, pretending to prove another. That article is a TRAINWRECK for anyone who is willing to sit down and look at the evidence and dishonest techniques of writing, researching, and presenting information