Posts by sd-7

44

Being honest & fair, can you think of anything that the Watchtower does that's beneficial to the public?

by Theocratic Sedition in

jw
friends

i'm curious, as where i reside there's about to be a major brouhaha over the tax exempt status of a major player in this area.

reading and hearing the arguments from both sides conjured thoughts about the tax exempt status of religions and the arguments associated with that issue.

a significant portion of the arguments related to that issue center around how a tax exempt organization benefits it's community.

sd-7

In helping people learn about the Bible, JWs have been able to inspire some people to break bad habits or stop self-destructive behavior. That can be a positive thing, but it's also something that could be accomplished without destructive social influences.

But otherwise, no. They don't have any programs for the poor, hospitals, food drives, neighborhood cleanups, or any other community-based activity that would benefit non-JWs or the world outside in general. The only activity they have that engages the public is their recruitment work. So the only beneficial things they accomplish are things based on a lie. If the means is bad, and the end is good, and there are alternative, good means to the same end, it's not really logical to choose the bad means to the good end.

--sd-7

49

Is There Other Sites Many Members Are Bailing To? M.I.A JWN People, where did they go?

by ÁrbolesdeArabia in

since i joined the forum i noticed more than a few people have not been posting, what is going on?

i received a couple of emails from other groups asking me to join their new forms with a promised technology, i wondered how they got my email address and thought it be strange.. .

people during the first year of a great change might post daily to any support chat or message board they feel is going to aid them.

sd-7

I've gone to another site from time to time. Not nearly enough people posting there, though--it seems like this site is percolatin' 24-7!

Honestly, some folks here have been rather aggressive with their opinions and I think that can do more harm than good. Of course people sometimes need to be told things that are uncomfortable for them, but there are ways to do that without name-calling and insults. I would hardly be surprised that some would not wish to return to this site, given how many times I've seen this done to people or to myself. Sometimes people just want to vent or need a kind word to encourage them, not a boot in the face when they're already having a struggle in life. We can return to the cult if we want that sort of treatment from our fellowman.

That said, I'm sure even the least tactful of us may actually have good intentions. Or not. It doesn't concern me to the point that I never want to come back, just gives me cause to take a break sometimes. Well, actually, it's just that this site is addictive and has some really insightful people on it, personal differences aside. It's enough of the good here to outweigh the bad, but then...I don't generally get into the more heated debates so... Maybe it's not as good as I'd like it to be some days. But that just tells me I should either double-check before I submit a thread about my personal life, or rethink my argumentation, or just not say anything.

But I'm kind of a doormat (or drama queen, depending on who you ask), so...I may be wrong.

--sd-7

24

Under the New Light, Where is the Continuity?

by Ding in

under the old light, from 33 ce onward, there was always an anointed remnant on earth, and these constituted the faithful and discreet slave class whom jesus had appointed over his domestics to give them spiritual meat in due season.. but the new light is that the "anointed" were not the faithful and discreet slave after all.. in fact, according to the new light, jesus did not appoint anyone as faithful and discreet slave over his domestics until 1919 (not even the apostles or russell).. so according to the new light, who or what was jehovah's visible organization from the death of the apostles until 1919?.

who was authorized to provide spiritual food in due season?.

where is the continuity?.

sd-7

sd-7 where is the word organisation in Jesus' teachings, the red in some bibles ?. May be that is the flaw no.1, if its not an organisation it is irrelevant?

The word 'organization' is not in Jesus' teachings. He did tell his followers that he'd be there if two or more were gathered together in his name, and that they should go make disciples and baptize them. Clearly there was some intention of their becoming brothers and sisters (ie. a group, congregation, or brotherhood, even), but no hierarchy such as in an organization was stated by Jesus--if anything, quite the opposite, since that was how the rulers of the nations did things. The greatest would be those most willing to serve each other, not those most eager to be in charge.

But that's the problem, of course, that the Society has been stuck on since Rutherford came up with this concept of organization. Everything in scripture has been presented as from an organizational perspective. Jesus' judgment seems in part, according to the Watchtower, based on what organization people belong to, along with their conduct, rather than being just their conduct regardless of which group they're in.

But they do think that if you're not in an organized group, you can't accomplish anything relevant before God. So...there you have it...

--sd-7

24

Under the New Light, Where is the Continuity?

by Ding in

under the old light, from 33 ce onward, there was always an anointed remnant on earth, and these constituted the faithful and discreet slave class whom jesus had appointed over his domestics to give them spiritual meat in due season.. but the new light is that the "anointed" were not the faithful and discreet slave after all.. in fact, according to the new light, jesus did not appoint anyone as faithful and discreet slave over his domestics until 1919 (not even the apostles or russell).. so according to the new light, who or what was jehovah's visible organization from the death of the apostles until 1919?.

who was authorized to provide spiritual food in due season?.

where is the continuity?.

sd-7

The really odd thing is there wasn't a Governing Body until 1975!!!! But the choosing appointment of the FDS happened in 1919? Try pointing that out to your favorite JW.

They'll probably point you to the July 15, 2013 WT, p. 22, par. 10: "In recent decades, that slave has been closely identified with the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses." There's an admission in there, that the 'slave' was not always identified with the Governing Body, only "in recent decades". Which means it was first Rutherford, then Knorr, then Franz, then the Governing Body. There always was a board of directors that filled the GB role, but the President had the final authority, until the Governing Body wrested that control from Franz.

But it's not really going to be relevant to a JW, since 'the truth' was still being taught and preached all over the earth because of this organization. Where's your organization, and why aren't you knocking on doors? See, this is the problem with apostates, they keep picking at these little things, but they produce no beneficial fruit at all. And that'll be the end of that discussion.

--sd-7

24

Under the New Light, Where is the Continuity?

by Ding in

under the old light, from 33 ce onward, there was always an anointed remnant on earth, and these constituted the faithful and discreet slave class whom jesus had appointed over his domestics to give them spiritual meat in due season.. but the new light is that the "anointed" were not the faithful and discreet slave after all.. in fact, according to the new light, jesus did not appoint anyone as faithful and discreet slave over his domestics until 1919 (not even the apostles or russell).. so according to the new light, who or what was jehovah's visible organization from the death of the apostles until 1919?.

who was authorized to provide spiritual food in due season?.

where is the continuity?.

sd-7

I thought the previous WT teaching was that the anointed remnant was the faithful and discreet slave class and that they were always somehow faithfully proclaiming Jehovah's truth on earth throughout the centuries.

You are correct.

Given the WT views, how could anyone from 33 CE to 1919 CE understand Bible truth without "God's organization" to explain it to them?

That would be the $144,000 question, now, wouldn't it? The WT has no idea who these people were.

p. 10, par. 4: "Speaking about the wheat and the weeds, Jesus said: "Let both grow together until the harvest." This command reveals that from the first century until today, there have always been some anointed wheatlike Christians on earth...So anointed Christians would be protected by Jesus all the days leading up to the time of the end. However, since they were overgrown by weedlike Christians, we do not know for certain who belonged to the wheat class during that long period of time."

So while they will go so far as to say there have always been anointed Christians around in all those years, they provide no explanation as to how such individuals came to understand 'Bible truth'. If I had to offer a JW-based guess, I would say the answer would be that those anointed ones received spirit-directed guidance to grasp some small portion of Bible truth that was evidently hidden from the majority of Christendom, the weedlike Christians during that long period. Like say, one person or small group understood that the Trinity was wrong. Or that hellfire was wrong. Or [insert JW teaching here].

But the bottom line is that that's just guesswork. The Society apparently doesn't think that issue is particularly relevant; there may not have been an organization then, but there is one now, and you would do well to provide your loyal cooperation and leave matters in Jehovah's hands regarding this question. And for asking the question, you're officially marked.

--sd-7

48

2013 Watchtower, July 15 - CHARTS for discussion

by bats in the belfry in

.

sd-7

I think the charts are there just to simplify the information. There's enough dates in these articles to confuse, I would say, most JWs. It's not that they're stupid, just that this is a very detailed set of information. The not-so-studious kind will be completely stumped and just hope to get a comment in. The charts are sort of like...in any textbook, really. You sum up the big points.

The wheat and the weeds--there seems to be a bit too much wheat amongst those weeds. I would expect a lot less.

But...not really a whole lot to be said about the charts. It seems like they could have been more colorful, maybe had paintings of people in them. This looks like you could do it with Powerpoint. But that's no big deal, really. I can imagine some JWs will photocopy the charts and maybe even lay them end-to-end or make a display board with them for Family Worship.

--sd-7

38

No more big District Conventions?

by serenitynow! in

so i went to the hall today for a funeral and took a look at the bulletin board.

i was surprised to see a letter stating the dc for michigan would be held at the local assembly hall instead of the big convention center in ohio where it had been held the past few years.

have you all heard about this?.

sd-7

I wasn't picking on either of you personally.

Oh, well that's good. Surely you weren't picking on us! I figured you were jokin' around.

--sd-7

24

Under the New Light, Where is the Continuity?

by Ding in

under the old light, from 33 ce onward, there was always an anointed remnant on earth, and these constituted the faithful and discreet slave class whom jesus had appointed over his domestics to give them spiritual meat in due season.. but the new light is that the "anointed" were not the faithful and discreet slave after all.. in fact, according to the new light, jesus did not appoint anyone as faithful and discreet slave over his domestics until 1919 (not even the apostles or russell).. so according to the new light, who or what was jehovah's visible organization from the death of the apostles until 1919?.

who was authorized to provide spiritual food in due season?.

where is the continuity?.

sd-7

Who was authorized to provide spiritual food in due season?

The Society's reasoning on this question is that the "due season" hadn't started until 1914, and that Jesus' words about the 'slave' are relevant only to the time after 1914. Therefore, there was no 'faithful slave', no channel for providing spiritual food after the death of the apostles. Basically, the slave didn't exist because the WT understanding of Matt. 24 is that the slave would not exist until after 1914.

That said, the scattered anointed across nearly two millennia would only have discovered parts of JW truth, like some small group that disbelieved the Trinity or hellfire in the 1400s or what have you, but it's irrelevant because it would be difficult to track that from the year 100 to probably at least sometime beyond the Dark Ages. But in short, there were mostly 'weeds' for all that time, and the 'wheat' maybe discovered some bit of 'truth' but probably by and large in isolation.

--sd-7

26

It's Proof! Why We Can Trust the FDS (The OD Book Chap 3)

by ezekiel3 in

from the new organized to do jehovah?s will (od) pages 18, 19. this is from a new chapter (3) in the book ?trusting the faithful and discreet slave?.

why trust "the faithful and discreet slave".

there are many reasons to have complete trust in the slave class.

sd-7

First and foremost, Jesus has appointed them over all his precious "belongings." This is a clear indication that he has complete trust in them.

...But since this hasn't happened yet, this is a clear indication that Jesus does not have complete trust in them. And Jesus is a really, really nice guy, so if he doesn't completely trust them, why should we?

--sd-7

108

July 15th Study Edition Is Up..

by confusedteenager in

jw
friends

not sure if anyone mentioned this yet, but yeah.

they just posted up the new watchtower...with the confusing new information.. time for me to go dive into this "new light" and try to see what sense it makes.

of course cedars already nicely did a run down for us.. .

sd-7

Aha, thanks sd-7, full control. That is what I've been thinking since last October. Rutherford had full control of what went in the publications. He had full control when in 1919 Jesus supposedly appointed the FDS.

This is a particularly critical point to bear in mind. By saying the slave was appointed in 1919, they're very firmly saying that Rutherford was directly picked by Jesus Christ as his channel. That tells me an awful lot. An awful lot.

I actually went back and read the Proclaimers book's recounting of these events, and it seems they actually explain it to that level of detail. It's just they present it in such a manner as to say that those board members who disagreed with Rutherford were by default "questioning the organization", which means quite clearly that Rutherford alone was the organization at that time, and that the 'slave' was not composite then, but rather, one individual.

In fact, this is even supported by something the July 15th WT says. Let me see if I can find it...p. 22, par. 10: "In recent decades, that slave has been closely identified with the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses." Note that they said "recent decades". You wouldn't say something like that unless the decades were, you know, RECENT. So it's an admission that the President of the WTS had most of the power until....yeah, probably the '70s, as Ray Franz related in CoC. That same paragraph on p. 22 adds that the slave is "composite", that the decisions are made collectively. But clearly that was not always the case if the slave was only identified with a Governing Body "in recent decades".

So that's actually a little extra gem they've thrown in. I mean, it's probably not news to people who have been around for awhile and can remember how much focus was given to the President of the Society in the past. But it's interesting to see it mentioned here.

--sd-7