Posts by Paulapollos

ElderPatrol makes an interesting point, and in some ways a valid one - having the wrong opinion or interpretation of something might not necessarily disqualify you from being God-appointed. And yet, he shows the strange convergence of ideas at the heart of the WT Society's authority.

In the example he/she quotes, the "saying" went out, based on something Jesus had said. In other words, there was an interpretation of a statement made by Jesus, that became a belief. When John penned his statement saying that Jesus hadn't actually said that, knowing that he would indeed pop his clogs, the early Christians would be faced with the issue - how much of what is said is from God, and how much is interpretation, to be jealously defended?

And isn't that the crux of the matter - the Watchtower Society claims that what is said by them, each interpretation, is indeed from God......unless it doesn't happen, in which case, it was something that they misinterpreted. Which seems suspiciously convienient, until you realise that actually in Deuternomy (I think!) essentially the same standard regarding prophecy is applied, albeit with some very important, WT-ignored, caveats!

It seems to me that the idea of accurate/inaccurate information is somewhat of a dead end - whether the WTS said aluminium is dangerous or not, that cream seperators and bicycles are some of the wonders proving Christ's presence, and that Job prophesied about locomotives proving we are in the last days, and so on and so forth, no matter how ridiculous, are actually immaterial.

The fact is, any fool can say that God has chosen him. There are a number of people who used to claim that where I used to live - most of them are now locked up in a place where they cannot shower us in spit, as they roam the streets spouting their deep wisdom. The issue is - do they have any proof of the claim?

Luke, somewhat politically, states Peter had miracles, as did Paul, attested to by eyewitnesses. It proved their authority. The WT, in their effort to replace the Vatican, claims the events of 1914-1919, in respect to the organisation, prove that God has chosen them. So it is an examination of those claims and those events that alone can prove or disprove their claim - and in that, the WT has a very.very shaky foundation.

This whole thing reminds me of the Therevada Buddhists vs the Mahayana Buddhists. The Buddha died - after stating that "I have not kept a closed fist", implying what he had taught them was all that was needed, and there were no new teachings to be had. Later, a new group of Buddhists arose, claiming that the Buddha knew the limitations of his-then disciples, and decided to keep it simple, teaching them only what they could take at the time. Apparently, these Mahayana Buddhists state that the Buddha knew that later, a group of more "enlightened" Buddhists would turn up (themselves, of course) , who would be able to discern and originate "greater truths". This group state that Therevada Buddhists, who do not recognise thier authority and stick to the original Buddhist teachings, are a figure of fun. Sound familiar?

PP

28

The Days After Armageddon -- Future Fantasy written by JWs

by VM44 in

jw
friends

mark k. tjernell, sep 8, 1946 to feb 15,2002.. obituary .

mark tjernell, author of the story "day one", and owner of his own business, died from electrocution in pierce county, washington, on february 15, 2002. .

tyernell's theocratic fiction "day one", at one time widely distributed on the internet, dealt with one person's experiences during the first few days after armageddon.

Paulapollos

There is something macabre about this constant fascination with "vindication" through the death of "opposers", this morbid, almost fetish-like obsession with the idea of being patted on the back by God and given a "promised well done" being manifested through the painful death of billions.

It's almost an apocalyptic, purification-by-fire cult. Very disturbing - it makes me think of 15 year kids who find themselves unable to stand up for themselves in the "real" world, and so retreat into their bedrooms, nurturing violent fantasies, hoping one day that they will be able to take vengeance on a world that they feel is inimical to them.

PP

25

Captives of a Concept

by dgp in

i'm reading "captives of a concept", by don cameron.

cameron holds that the one thing that keeps jehovah's witnesses prisoners in the watchtower is the idea that they are in "god's organization", and, therefore, the right thing to do, in spite of what one sees, is to stay within it.

cameron also says that those jehovah's witnesses who become convinced that the watchtower is not god's organization eventually leave.

Paulapollos

DGP.

I see where you are coming from, but actually, from their point of view, they HAVE said that. Just because it is not coherent, does not mean the Society view it as "unsaid"!

In the Revelation book, it is constantly stated that (in more or less words) the fulfillment of "Bible prophecy" upon JW's "proves" they are God's people.

The Societys' position is fairly clear. They claim that in 1918, as per Malachi 3, Jesus came to inspect the people claiming to be his, which included all Christendom. He found JW's were the closest to the "truth" (which would be obvious if he had been using them since 1874.) For a period he refined them, which was done thru the imprisonment of the board of directors. Then in 1919, Jesus fulfilled a "remarkable" prophecy toward the JW's by "resurrecting them to heaven" figuratively, by freeing the board and reinvigorating the preaching work. This whole series of events is the "proof" the Society points to.

I understand what you are saying, but I know I was told that at Bethel, and all the brothers and sisters I ever hung around with understood this to be the case - the events of 1914-1919 were the "seal of approval". I am sure this is mentioned somewhere in the Revelation book.

*** re chap. 6 p. 32 Unlocking a Sacred Secret ***
Early in 1918 the Kingdom activity of Jehovah’s people met with great opposition. It was a time of testing earth wide, and fearful ones were sifted out. In May 1918 Christendom’s clergy instigated the imprisonment of officials of the Watch Tower Society, but nine months later these were released. Later, the false charges against them were dropped. From 1919 the organization of God’s people, tried and refined, moved zealously forward to proclaim Jehovah’s Kingdom by Christ Jesus as the hope for mankind.—Malachi 3:1-3.
As Jesus began his inspection in 1918, the clergy of Christendom no doubt received an adverse judgment. Not only had they raised up persecution against God’s people but they had also incurred heavy bloodguilt by supporting the contending nations during the first world war. (Revelation 18:21, 24) Those clergymen then placed their hope in the man-made League of Nations. Along with the entire world empire of false religion, Christendom had fallen completely from God’s favor by 1919.

*** re chap. 25 pp. 169-170 Reviving the Two Witnesses ***
Raised Again!
23 The public press joined the clergy in vilifying God’s people, one paper saying: “The finis of The Finished Mystery has been given.” Nothing, though, could have been further from the truth! The two witnesses did not stay dead. We read: “And after the three and a half days spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet, and great fear fell upon those beholding them. And they heard a loud voice out of heaven say to them: ‘Come on up here.’ And they went up into heaven in the cloud, and their enemies beheld them.” (Revelation 11:11, 12) Thus, they had an experience similar to that of the dry bones in the valley that Ezekiel visited in vision. Jehovah breathed upon those dry bones, and they came to life, providing a picture of the rebirth of the nation of Israel after 70 years of captivity in Babylon. (Ezekiel 37:1-14) These two prophecies, in Ezekiel and in Revelation, had their striking modern-day fulfillment in 1919, when Jehovah restored his “deceased” witnesses to vibrant life.
24 What a shock for those persecutors! The corpses of the two witnesses were suddenly alive and active again. It was a bitter pill for those clergymen to swallow, the more so since the Christian ministers whom they had schemed to put in prison were free again, later to be fully exonerated. The shock must have been even greater when, in September 1919, the Bible Students held a convention in Cedar Point, Ohio, U.S.A. Here J. F. Rutherford, recently released from prison, stirred conventioners with his talk “Announcing the Kingdom,” based on Revelation 15:2 and Isaiah 52:7. Those of the John class began once again to “prophesy,” or preach publicly. They advanced from strength to strength, fearlessly exposing Christendom’s hypocrisy.
25 Christendom tried again and again to repeat her triumph of 1918. She resorted to mob action, legal maneuvering, imprisonment, even executions—all to no avail! After 1919 the spiritual domain of the two witnesses was out of her reach. In that year Jehovah had said to them: “Come on up here,” and they had ascended to an elevated spiritual state where their enemies could see them but could not touch them. John describes the shocking effect their restoration had on the great city: “And in that hour a great earthquake occurred, and a tenth of the city fell; and seven thousand persons were killed by the earthquake, and the rest became frightened and gave glory to the God of heaven.” (Revelation 11:13) There were truly great convulsions in the realm of religion. The ground seemed to move under the leaders of the established churches as this body of revivified Christians got to work. One tenth of their city, figuratively 7,000 persons, were so profoundly affected that they are spoken of as being killed.

*** w60 7/15 p. 436 pars. 20-22 The Awake “Faithful and Discreet Slave” ***
20 As we now know, this watchman class of the “faithful and discreet slave” was being cleansed for still greater watchman service in the turbulent years to follow their restoration in 1919. Previously, in the spring of 1918, Jehovah came to his temple of earthly Christian servants for inspection and cleansing. (Mal. 3:1-3) The many bad ones were disfellowshiped by Him and sent away. A loyal remnant were permitted to go through the fiery test where Jehovah and his Messenger, Christ Jesus, (1) tested them by organization arrangements on their loyalty to Jehovah’s organization rather than to human leaders, (2) tested them by service instructions and provisions as to their zeal and devotion to Jehovah’s worship and witness work, and (3) tested them by revealed truth as to their love of it. What a fiery time it was!—See You May Survive Armageddon into God’s New World, pp. 303 to 305.
21 A faithful remnant of some thousands of the “domestics” of the “faithful and discreet slave” class survived this time of testing. From the spring of 1919 forward they began to rise from the dust of inactivity to their new lofty service as watchmen to the world. (Dan. 12:2; Rev. 11:11, 12) The Scriptures also describe them as being clothed with new garments of clean identification to represent Jehovah’s interests in the earth.—Zech. 3:4, 5; see the book Preparation, pp. 55 to 58.
22 Now that the long-expected Kingdom had become an established reality in heaven, surely its growing interests in the earth after 1919 would not be left

The Societys' position, as far as I know, is the "fulfillment" of the prophecies is the confirmation Jesus chose them - so what else would anyone else look for?

PP

22

Volunteer Injured While Working On A Kingdom Hall Construction Site

by Bangalore in

jw
friends

http://www.globaltoronto.com/impaled+metal+after+victoria+crane+overturns/3329739/story.html.

.

bangalore.

Paulapollos

In the UK, a sister I knew fell off scaffolding, and was so badly injured, she couldn't walk for months.

PP

73

what was the worst advice given to you while you were a JW ?

by wasblind in

mine's was, if your job interfere with the meetings you have to decide who you will choose,.

serving jehovah or serving man, if anyone knew my needs it most definitely was jehovah.

and he knew i needed my job to eat.

Paulapollos

PEacedog,

sadly I did, and learnt that all the "commendation" from the brothers in the world does not make washing windows a fulfilling career choice!

Education - the enemy of the WT!

PP

83

If you felt/feel that you had/have good, close "friends" in the org, how did/does it feel to just give them up?

by Crisis of Conscience in

jw
friends

this is my biggest dilema.

although mentally i really feel i could walk away from the org right now, i still have genuine love for the people i have come to know over the years.

i love people!.

Paulapollos

Very painful to lose relationships that were so close for so long.

Yet liberating to be left with people who are your friends, no matter what.

PP

73

what was the worst advice given to you while you were a JW ?

by wasblind in

mine's was, if your job interfere with the meetings you have to decide who you will choose,.

serving jehovah or serving man, if anyone knew my needs it most definitely was jehovah.

and he knew i needed my job to eat.

Paulapollos

"Don;t go to University, you are only going to be wasting your time. Pioneer and do a humble job instead, like window cleaning. "

25

Captives of a Concept

by dgp in

i'm reading "captives of a concept", by don cameron.

cameron holds that the one thing that keeps jehovah's witnesses prisoners in the watchtower is the idea that they are in "god's organization", and, therefore, the right thing to do, in spite of what one sees, is to stay within it.

cameron also says that those jehovah's witnesses who become convinced that the watchtower is not god's organization eventually leave.

Paulapollos

I know that at Bethel, it was often stated in Writing that the fact that Judge Rutherford and his cohorts were released from prison, and then were able to reorganise the preaching work was a direct fulfillment of the prophecy of the 2 witnesses resurrection in Revelation. It was said that this was the proof that Jesus had chosen them - the fulfillment of that specific prophecy.

PP

61

Overpopulation in the "Paradise" Earth!

by Leolaia in

jw doctrine teaches that the 1,000 years of christ corresponds to "judgment day," and everyone who has not already been judged will be resurrected from the dead.

the exceptions would be those who died during the flood, the destruction of sodom and gomorrah, and a few odd individuals.

but that's only the people living today.

Paulapollos

This is an excellent discussion, and has piqued my interest.

I think I am going to try and find out more about this idea of "paradise" in the Bible......

PP