This thread shows me that God as the Watchtower depicts him is by far not the loving, giving one the Bible shows us, but an egomaniac, selfish one. He asks of us to reach a certain state of mind in our life that can be used as a basis for creating a society of drones that worship him. Then when we die, he recreates that mind again, because it had the right qualities to fit in his plan. Of course your sins are forgotten, because it's not you any more! This whole thing sounds more like Satan, not like God.
Posts by teel
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45Resurrection or re-creation?
by teel inthis thing (along with jehovah's capability to know everything before, wich leads to predetermination) bothered me the most while i was a practicant jw, and the topic of jws mourning brought it back to me.
maybe someone could shed a light on how jws cope with this problem.
i've seen this mentioned at other places too, so it's not just me who thought of this problem.. as we all know, jw doctrine tells that absolutely nothing survives the death.
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45
Resurrection or re-creation?
by teel inthis thing (along with jehovah's capability to know everything before, wich leads to predetermination) bothered me the most while i was a practicant jw, and the topic of jws mourning brought it back to me.
maybe someone could shed a light on how jws cope with this problem.
i've seen this mentioned at other places too, so it's not just me who thought of this problem.. as we all know, jw doctrine tells that absolutely nothing survives the death.
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teel
Hey Tuesday, I saw your video before you posted it here (That's why I used the term recreation in my post - I am not native english speaking, so you helped me give it a proper name to it ) Your video confirmed to me that it is indeed a tough and deep question that comes up for many people independent of each other; it is not something to be shoved easily under the rug with a generalization, like "wait for Jehovah to clarify" or "we can't comprehend in our current state, wait until we're perfect".
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45
Resurrection or re-creation?
by teel inthis thing (along with jehovah's capability to know everything before, wich leads to predetermination) bothered me the most while i was a practicant jw, and the topic of jws mourning brought it back to me.
maybe someone could shed a light on how jws cope with this problem.
i've seen this mentioned at other places too, so it's not just me who thought of this problem.. as we all know, jw doctrine tells that absolutely nothing survives the death.
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teel
quietlyleaving, I've also heard that illustration several times, and it just highlights the problem more It is not me on that video tape, it is a copy of me.
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19
Wish to debunk Witness God's Org Concept
by Luo bou to ini wish to reach my ex who is heavily entrenched in the org.
i intend to argue along these lines using the parable of the wheat and the weeds.
that jesus knows those that belong to him and today they are scattered throughout the different denominations of christendom.
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teel
If one is a devout JW he/she has the answer to anything you proove to be wrong with his faith. That answer is: "this is the Devil's teaching", and they sink back and rehash in their minds that this is the Truth, that the GB is God's mouthpiece, and everything is just perfect. Hence the followup defensive stance, and severing the contact.
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45
Resurrection or re-creation?
by teel inthis thing (along with jehovah's capability to know everything before, wich leads to predetermination) bothered me the most while i was a practicant jw, and the topic of jws mourning brought it back to me.
maybe someone could shed a light on how jws cope with this problem.
i've seen this mentioned at other places too, so it's not just me who thought of this problem.. as we all know, jw doctrine tells that absolutely nothing survives the death.
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teel
wantstoleave: I just want to clarify this, not because you're technically wrong, but because JWs often take that 2% way too literally, and they argue that this is a proof that man was not created to live such a short life. In short: technically speaking you do use 100% of the brain. If you wouldn't, then you shouldn't mind me taking out 90% of your brain right?
However the brain does have the capability to do more. Here's an example (saw this on an other webpage): think of a stereo system. When you're listening to music, are you using the whole system 100%? However you have a knob to turn the volume up and down. When the volume is at 2% are you using 2% of the stereo? No, you're still using it fully.
There is absolutely nothing stopping you from using more of your brain right now! There are no blocked brain cells, that are waiting for God to release them. Technically with hard learning, and perseverence you can use much more than you are using now, and this was proved true by many who just wanted to best themselves. Our short lifespan is sort of a limiting factor, we start to decay way too early, but the average life expectancy is continually increasing, and some say the average intelligence is increasing too.
So I just proved that indeed our lives are too short to use our brains But long life is not equal to fully using brains, because it only gives you the time to best yourself, it won't come automatically. However one could argue that such mechanisms are present at the animals too, and they are not expected to live eternally even in Paradise.
On the other hand you have a point there, as someone said: "If our brain were so simple that we could understand it, we would be so simple that we couldn't"
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45
Resurrection or re-creation?
by teel inthis thing (along with jehovah's capability to know everything before, wich leads to predetermination) bothered me the most while i was a practicant jw, and the topic of jws mourning brought it back to me.
maybe someone could shed a light on how jws cope with this problem.
i've seen this mentioned at other places too, so it's not just me who thought of this problem.. as we all know, jw doctrine tells that absolutely nothing survives the death.
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teel
I don't necessarily care about this physical body. My perfect clone would recognize himself as ME, but would I be recognizing myself? Comparing to holograms you say that in a hypothetical case of God "resurrecting" me while I was still alive, I would actually be in two places, both selves being me - something along the line of trinity. Yet God would still need at least something that can be unmistakenly called me - bones don't cut it (for really long dead people they may not exist either), because all the atoms in my body are replaced after a while (I think it was about 7 years?) so there can be nothing physical that I can call myself.
Then there is the theory that the whole image of self is just a function of the brain, theory which is by some thought to be supported by "out of body experiences". For example placing a helmet with rotating magnetic field on your head can trigger this experience. The magnets disturb the functions of the brain, and with it the feeling of self. Of course it could be as well that the magnet disturbs your soul in an unknown matter as well :)
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45
Resurrection or re-creation?
by teel inthis thing (along with jehovah's capability to know everything before, wich leads to predetermination) bothered me the most while i was a practicant jw, and the topic of jws mourning brought it back to me.
maybe someone could shed a light on how jws cope with this problem.
i've seen this mentioned at other places too, so it's not just me who thought of this problem.. as we all know, jw doctrine tells that absolutely nothing survives the death.
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teel
inbetween: right, the Bible clearly speaks of resurrection. So to follow the Bible we have two choices: either accept that something of you does survive death, or resort to some sort of "sacred mystery" that JWs like to point out and laugh when talking of other's faith in trinity with no logical explanation.
My take on this is that you could actually twist together both the teaching "there is nothing that thinks" after you're dead, and still having a part of you surviving death. Simply put, your do have a "soul" (for lack of a better word), yet not in the sense that it can think, act or anything in itself, but something intangible inside yourself, that makes you you. This soul could be kept intact - not a copy, but by itself - and given back to a recreated body. This sounds a bit "sacred mystery" too, in the sense that there is nothing pointing to this in the Bible, but it's the only way I see that keeps both JWs beliefs. Or they could just drop the whole "mortal soul" altogether.
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45
Resurrection or re-creation?
by teel inthis thing (along with jehovah's capability to know everything before, wich leads to predetermination) bothered me the most while i was a practicant jw, and the topic of jws mourning brought it back to me.
maybe someone could shed a light on how jws cope with this problem.
i've seen this mentioned at other places too, so it's not just me who thought of this problem.. as we all know, jw doctrine tells that absolutely nothing survives the death.
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teel
Ok wantstoleave, but that doesn't change the original problem, so now we're dealing with a copy that's not 100% of yourself, but it's still copy
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45
Resurrection or re-creation?
by teel inthis thing (along with jehovah's capability to know everything before, wich leads to predetermination) bothered me the most while i was a practicant jw, and the topic of jws mourning brought it back to me.
maybe someone could shed a light on how jws cope with this problem.
i've seen this mentioned at other places too, so it's not just me who thought of this problem.. as we all know, jw doctrine tells that absolutely nothing survives the death.
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-
teel
This thing (along with Jehovah's capability to know everything before, wich leads to predetermination) bothered me the most while I was a practicant JW, and the topic of JWs mourning brought it back to me. Maybe someone could shed a light on how JWs cope with this problem. I've seen this mentioned at other places too, so it's not just me who thought of this problem.
As we all know, JW doctrine tells that absolutely nothing survives the death. You have no soul that travels to God, your body is dead. At the resurrection you will get your body back in a perfect condition. Yet the original body is most likely decomposed by then. So this raises a problem: if nothing survived death, then the person that will be resurrected won't be me, it will be a perfect copy of myself.
To give a parallel: let's suppose humanity develops a way to scan every single atom in my body, and to put a corresponding atom 1 meter away from me. This would be the absolutely perfect cloning system: all my memories (stored in the brain cells in my body) would be copied, along with my personality, my looks, etc. This is what according to JW doctrine God does when you die - copy every single little bit of you. But the catch is: it's still a copy! Taking that imaginary perfect cloning system, I'll be standing there looking at my perfect copy, who behave perfectly the same as I do, has the exact same memory as I do, but it's still not me!
So what is the JW stand on this, anyone knows? As I see it according to JWs, you better not die before Armageddon, because by the looks of it you'll be dead forever, with no chance of resurrection. And you still have to do your best, so that a copy of yours can some day walk again the Earth
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61
If you pray, do you say 'Jehovah'...?
by wantstoleave injust wondering of those that pray and who have left the organisation, do you still address god as jehovah?.
i think i'm currently in that awkward stage where i'm neither in or out, yet don't feel i should even address, or have the right, to talk to god (jehovah) until i decide where i sit.
so i'm wondering if it's hypocritical to pray and use his name.
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teel
I understand you, I am somewhat in a similar position. I admit it sounds funny, but I actually addressed to God in one of my prayer as "Jehovah, or whatever your name might be" . I am sure God would understand your hesitation (and my awkward naming). Usually I tend to just use "God" though.