a reeel greek scholar
yep.
chuck russell surely knew .
it did not help my insomnianity though.
Me too! I didn't get to be last night ..... it was cracking up ..... had two hours sleep and am still going ... this is so funny and Tally, it is so good to see you back on board with all guns balsting!!!!
JanG
a reeel greek scholar
yep.
chuck russell surely knew .
Finally, JanG, I will have to note that the force of an assertion is very often detoriating at a rate proportional with the
number of exclamation marks added to it.
Next time I will use one
JanG
a reeel greek scholar
yep.
chuck russell surely knew .
UH!? <i>There is simply no evidence here that Russell committed perjury. </i>
Question: (Attorney Staunton) "Do you know the Greek Alphabet?"
Answer: (Russell) <b>"Oh yes."</b> <<<<<<<<<<<< What is this? A lie????
Question: (Staunton) "Can you tell me the correct letters if you see them?"
Answer: (Russell) "Some of them, I might make a mistake on some of them."
Jan, he told a big great fib!!!!!!! WE had a test on the alphabet after week 2 and had to know it verbally and written by then!!! You either know it or you don't Jan. He lied!!!!!
JanG
a reeel greek scholar
yep.
chuck russell surely knew .
The following is taken from the transcript as Rev. Ross's attorney, Mr. Staunton cross-examining C.T. Russell in the case Russell v. Ross.
Question: (Attorney Staunton) "Do you know the Greek Alphabet?"
Answer: (Russell) "Oh yes."
Question: (Staunton) "Can you tell me the correct letters if you see them?"
Answer: (Russell) "Some of them, I might make a mistake on some of them."
Question: (Staunton) "Would you tell me the names of those on top of the page, page 447 I have got here?"
Answer: (Russell) "Well, I don't know that I would be able to."
Question: (Staunton) "You can't tell what those letters are, look at them and see if you know?"
Answer: (Russell) "My way ..." [he was interrupted at this point and not allowed to explain]
Question: (Staunton) "Are you familiar with the Greek language?"
Answer: (Russell) "No."
(Ibid, p. 44).
As Martin observed, Russell first claimed to know the greek alphabet, then when challenged said he knew, "some of them" but may make mistakes on other letters.
Finally when presented with the greek letters themselves, admitted the he did not know Greek - one of the main points of Ross's "libellous" pamphlet.
---------------------------------------
When I did Koine Greek I was able to recognise and read the words by the end of our 5th week. Our final semester exam was reading John chapter 1 out aloud.
We also had to be able to translate from english to greek and back again in simple Koine Greek sentences.
Jang
JanG
i think we as jws acquire many phobias...that ordinary people dont get like:.
clithrophobia - the fear of being locked in (to a cult).
scopophobia - the fear of being stared at (when you are partaking or are disfellowshipped).
That is brilliant! Defnitely a 'passer on' ......
It is 2 am here and after this laugh I can see myself not going to bed for another 2 hours!!
JanG
groups jim moyers, ma, mft.
(while this article was originally written for psychotherapists.
working with ex-fundamentalists, it should be helpful for anyone who.
Psychological Issues of Former Members of Restrictive Religious
Groups Jim Moyers, MA, MFT
(While this article was originally written for psychotherapists
working with ex-fundamentalists, it should be helpful for anyone who
has been involved with a restrictive religious group.
Restrictive religious groups, characterized by rigid beliefs,
authoritarian structure, rejection of mainstream culture, and a
tendency to isolate their members from outside influences that might
lead to questions about the group's teachings, come in many forms
from fringe cults to well established churches. While the experience
of individuals involved with so-called cults that clearly deviate
from established religious practice has been extensively discussed
in both popular and professional literature, there is relatively
little recognition of the similar issues presented by those
affiliated with more restrictive forms of mainstream religion such
as can be found in Christian fundamentalism.
Shattered Faith
There are many people who find membership in such groups to be a
positive experience. This article is not so much concerned with them
as it is with those who, often after a great deal of inner turmoil,
leave such groups. Many, especially those who had been intensely
involved with their religion, experience what has been called the
"shattered faith syndrome" (Yao, 1987). Having lost faith in what
was once a primary source of meaning and guidance, the former
believer is apt to feel lost and overwhelmed. Estrangement from the
community of believers - the focus of social life for most members
of restrictive religious groups- compounds the former member's
isolation and despair.
The psychological effect of membership in a restrictive religious
group often persists long after the outward severing of ties. There
may be a chronic sense of dissatisfaction coupled with difficulty in
finding new sources of meaning and direction. Formermembers are apt
to distrust their own judgment, and may feel despair in their
inability to recapture the certainty that they once experienced in
unquestioningly accepting the group's teachings. Fundamentalist
groups tend to view pride in oneself as sinful. This is internalized
as the persistently negative self image that is apparent in many
ex-believers. Sexual inhibitions, compulsions, frustration, and
guilt are liable to linger on long after negative beliefs about sex
have been consciously rejected. Having been taught to regard every
impulse as potentially evil, the former group member may have little
tolerance for spontaneity and lack the means for genuine
self-expression. Conditioned distrust of the world outside the
community of believers coupled with the experience of disillusionment
with teachings that once seemed infallible can present serious
obstacles to joining any group or making lasting commitments.
Issues Of the Former Member in Psychotherapy
Ex-members of restrictive religious groups rarely come into therapy
with their religious past as the presenting issue. They are of
course subject to the same pathogenic factors as everyone else: such
a background is not an all-inclusive explanation for every problem a
former member may present. But as the work of therapy proceeds,
unresolved conflicts involving past beliefs sometimes become
apparent.
Religious conflicts should always be approached from a carefully
neutral position. The therapist must walk a fine line between the
traditional psychoanalytic bias against religion as pathological on
one hand and naivet about the potential of some religious systems
for undermining a healthy sense of self on the other. Even though
the client may claim to have rejected her or his former beliefs, the
therapist should remain neutral. Emphasizing negative aspects of a
once strongly held way of being in the world may trigger defense of
something with which the client is still unconsciously identified.
Criticism of past beliefs may be misconstrued as criticism of the
client for having believed them. There may be shame in having once
accepted as true things that now seem untenable.
The former member should be encouraged to look at the positive as
well as negative aspects of having belonged to a restrictive
religious group. It is often helpful to approach the involvement as
a developmental stage that was important, in ways both good and bad,
in shaping the individual's life. As with any other developmental
stage, the restrictive belief system was eventually outgrown. But
unlike most other life stages, there is rarely a readily apparent
next stage for the former believer to move on to. This is especially
true with groups that actively discourage awareness of other systems
of thought and lifestyles. Group members may know nothing about
other religions, the humanities, or modern critical thought.
Education in schools operated by the group, where all ideas are
filtered through the shared belief system, tends to increase social
and cultural isolation. Thus the former member may be unaware of
alternative approaches to spiritual and existential questions.
Support for spiritual and philosophical explorations, in contrast to
the limits set by the former belief system, will help validate the
client's capacity for independent thought.
Without the unequivocal pronouncements that once guided them, former
members of restrictive groups are apt to feel lost and confused. In
any transition, there is a naturally occuring period of time between
the collapse of old beliefs and their replacement by a new set of
guiding principles. Kuhn's (1970) account of the disorientation that
occurs when a scientific viewpoint once thought to be definitive
fails to fit emergent facts can be applied to the similar confusion
that comes with shifts in religious belief. Bridge's (1980) concept
of an "empty" middle phase in transitions is also helpful in
normalizing the ex-believer's sense of confusion and inner emptiness
as a natural part of the process of moving beyond outmoded views
about self and the world.
The tenets of a restrictive religious group serve as the primary
source of meaning and self definition for its members. In departing
from them, the former believer loses what may well have been the
central focus of her or his life. As with any loss, there is an
associated grief process which, however, often goes unrecognized.
Acknowledging losses as well as gains in leaving the group, and
normalizing the depression the ex-member may feel as a natural
response to the loss can go a long way towards helping him or her
move through the necessary grief process.
Ex-believers often feel doubly misunderstood and isolated. Family
and friends who remain in the group are likely to have little
tolerance for the views of anyone who has rejected their beliefs.
People who do not share the same background are not likely to
understand the intense and long lasting effects of having once
belonged to a restrictive religion. Often the connection between
current life difficulties and past religious experience is not
apparent even to the former member.
Fundamentalist doctrines emphasize human imperfection, maintaining
that there is no possibility for doing good without the assistance
of divine grace. Along with the loss of idealized images about the
group and its leaders, the disillusioned believer also loses what
was believed to be the only hope of salvation. Self esteem based
upon association with the group and its "sure truths," is seriously
impacted when one no longer belongs to the group. I have found
Jung's (1965) concept of the self as an inner, transcendent source
of healing and wholeness that is often projected onto institutions
and their leaders useful in helping people reclaim aspects of
themselves that they may have given away to the group. In addition,
Jung's psychological awareness of spirituality and account of his
own struggle with religious beliefs can be very helpful for
individuals seeking a new way to understand their religious
experience.
In therapy as well as in other relationships, the projections
formerly carried by the group and its leaders are likely to appear
in the form of idealization or devaluation, with the two processes
sometimes alternating. Ex-believers may need to test a relationship
to see if they are at risk for another painful betrayal. Therapeutic
process often revolves around reclamation of the personal authority
once given over to the group, and now perhaps projected onto
significant others as well as the therapist.
The former believer may be very adept at unconsciously meeting the
perceived expectations of others. Denial, repression, splitting, and
a false sense of self are often well developed defense mechanisms.
The black and white thinking expressed in such conflicting pairs of
opposites as God vs. devil, church vs. world, sin vs. righteousness,
leads to repression of anything that might possibly be construed as
unacceptable. Constant self monitoring and rigid self control, along
with confession of every sin in prayer, may have been regarded as
the only means for avoiding divine condemnation. In the literalism
characteristic of fundamentalism, an "evil" thought or feeling is
considered just as sinful as an evil act. Impulses and feelings may
be believed to be demonic in origin. The former group member is
likely to need frequent reminders that there is nothing inherently
evil about negative feelings, and the fact of their existence does
not mean that they will be acted out.
Strongly held beliefs greatly complicate family dynamics when not
all family members share those beliefs. Unlike former members of
"cults" whose families likely opposed their group membership,
individuals who leave fundamentalism often leave family members
behind. People who have left religious groups to which their
families still belong will need support in coping with the anger,
pain, and grief of being misunderstood and judged. They will also
need assistance in maintaining a personal philosophy that clashes
with the deeply held beliefs of family members. Family interactions
can become dominated by the well meant attempts of the "faithful" to
persuade their "lost loved one" to return to "the Truth."
Conversely, the former believer's desire to win family and friends
over to his or her condemnation of the group is often as strong as
the desire of those who still belong to bring her or him back into
the fold.
Dysfunctional family patterns are sometimes hidden behind the
idealized image of the religiously affiliated family, an image that
is apt to fail when faith in the church is lost. The discovery of
pathology in one's family presents yet another challenge to
previously held beliefs. Adolescents from families belonging to
restrictive religious groups often rebel through gross violations of
the strict moral codes that have been prescribed for them. Sexual
acting out, running away, and substance abuse may represent attempts
to establish autonomy in the face of overbearing parental and
religious authority. Divorce and bitter child custody disputes,
based in black and white conflicts over transcendent values, often
occur when one spouse leaves a restrictive religious group while the
other remains. While not all groups go so far as to prohibit contact
with those who leave, a former member is unlikely to be well
regarded by the faithful. Conclusion Psychological issues of former
members of restrictive religious are unique in the degree to which
they involve past religious belief and experience. It is important
to remember that what may seem to be eccentric ideas and practices
are likely to have been very important in shaping the former
believer's life. In addition to the usual goals of psychotherapy,
former members may need assistance in exploring lingering religious
conflicts, as well as support in seeking sources of meaning and
guidance more congruent with current beliefs and lifestyle.
References
Bridges, W. (1980). Transitions. Reading, Mass. Jung, C.G. (1965).
Memories, Dreams, Reflections. New York: Random House. Kuhn, T.S.
(1970).
The Structure of Scientific Revolutions. Chicago: University of
Chicago Press. Yao, R. (1987).
Addiction and the Fundamentalist Experience. New York:
Fundamentalists Anonymous.
Earlier versions of this article appeared in Psychotherapy, The
California Therapist, and Cultic Studies Journal.
(c)1999 James C. Moyers
< http://home.earthlink.net/~jcmmsm/Groups/index.html>;
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
^^THE MOST DANGEROUS LIE IS THAT WHICH MOST CLOSELY RESEMBLES THE TRUTH^^
The price of freedom is eternal vigilance- for fear we imprison the mind
Cult Awareness & Information Centre
(OZ = Australia C.A.I.C Ph. 61-(0)7-3216 8514
_--_|\ Web Page: http://www.caic.org.au
/ x <- Brisbane E-Mail: [email protected]
| OZ | [email protected]
\_.--._/ [email protected]
v Jan's Personal Page: http://www.uq.net.au/~zzjgroen
ICQ: 7611954
I'd much rather go through life with questions I cannot answer
than have questions I cannot ask!
"Truth is always strong, no matter how weak it looks; and
falsehood is always weak, no matter how strong it looks."
- Phillip Brooks
"Truth may be stretched, but cannot be broken, and always gets above
falsehood, as oil does above water"
- Miguel Cervantes
JanG
this applies to both cults and spiritually abusive systems.. the emotional pain of leaving a cult.
the following is how former cult members and members of spiritually abusive.
and yet you know you cannot go back.. it hurts when you feel you are all alone - that no one seems to.
For those who haven't seen this before:
This applies to both cults and spiritually abusive systems.
The Emotional Pain Of Leaving A Cult
The following is how former cult members and members of spiritually abusive
systems described how they felt when they finally left their group.
This may give you some insight into their pain and why there are
no easy answers for them.
It Hurts
It Hurts to discover you were deceived - that what you thought
was the "one true religion," the "path to total fredom," or "truth"
was in reality a cult.
It Hurts when you learn that people you trusted implicitly - whom
you were taught not to question - were "pulling the wool over your
eyes" albeit unwittingly.
It Hurts when you learn that those you were taught were your "enemies"
were telling the truth after all - but you had been told they were
liars, deceivers, repressive, satanic etc and not to listen to
them.
It Hurts when you know your faith in God hasn't changed - only
your trust in an organization - yet you are accused of apostasy,
being a trouble maker, a "Judas". It hurts even more when it is
your family and friends making these accusations.
It Hurts to realize their love and acceptance was conditional on
you remaining a member of good standing. This cuts so deeply you
try and suppress it. All you want to do is forget - but how can
you forget your family and friends?
It Hurts to see the looks of hatred coming from the faces of those
you love - to hear the deafening silence when you try and talk
to them. It cuts deeply when you try and give your child a hug
and they stand like a statue, pretending you aren't there. It stabs
like a knife when you know your spouse looks upon you as demonised
and teaches your children to hate you.
It Hurts to know you must start all over again. You feel you have
wasted so much time. You feel betrayed, disillusioned, suspicious
of everyone including family, friends and other former members.
It Hurts when you find yourself feeling guilty or ashamed of what
you were - even about leaving them. You feel depressed, confused,
lonely. You find it difficult to make decisions. You don't know
what to do with yourself because you have so much time on your
hands now - yet you still feel guilty for spending time on recreation.
It Hurts when you feel as though you have lost touch with reality.
You feel as though you are "floating" and wonder if you really
are better off and long for the security you had in the organization
and yet you know you cannot go back.
It Hurts when you feel you are all alone - that no one seems to
understand what you are feeling. It hurts when you realize your
self confidence and self worth are almost non-existent.
It Hurts when you have to front up to friends and family to hear
their "I told you so" whether that statement is verbal or not.
It makes you feel even more stupid than you already do - your confidence
and self worth plummet even further.
It Hurts when you realize you gave up everything for the cult -
your education, career, finances, time and energy - and now have
to seek employment or restart your education. How do you explain
all those missing years?
It Hurts because you know that even though you were deceived, you
are responsible for being taken in. All that wasted time ... at
least that is what it seems to you - wasted time.
The Pain Of Grief
Leaving a cult is like experiencing the death of a close relative or
a broken relationship. The feeling is often described as like having
been betrayed by someone with whom you were in love. You feel you
were simply used.
There is a grieving process to pass through. Whereas most people understand
that a person must grieve after a death etc, they find it difficult
to understand the same applies in this situation. There is no instant
cure for the grief, confusion and pain. Like all grieving periods,
time is the healer.
Some feel guilty, or wrong about this grief. They shouldn't - It
IS normal. It is NOT wrong to feel confused, uncertain, disillusioned,
guilty, angry, untrusting - these are all part of the process.
In time the negative feelings will be replaced with clear thinking,
joy, peace, and trust.
Yes - It hurts but the hurts will heal with time, patience & understanding.
There is life after the cult.
Copyright 1985, 1995 Jan Groenveld
May be freely reproduced as long as all text remains intact.
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
^^THE MOST DANGEROUS LIE IS THAT WHICH MOST CLOSELY RESEMBLES THE TRUTH^^
The price of freedom is eternal vigilance- for fear we imprison the mind
Cult Awareness & Information Centre
(OZ = Australia C.A.I.C Ph. 61-(0)7-3216 8514
_--_|\ Web Page: http://www.caic.org.au
/ x <- Brisbane E-Mail: [email protected]
| OZ | [email protected]
\_.--._/ [email protected]
v Jan's Personal Page: http://www.uq.net.au/~zzjgroen
ICQ: 7611954
I'd much rather go through life with questions I cannot answer
than have questions I cannot ask!
"Truth is always strong, no matter how weak it looks; and
falsehood is always weak, no matter how strong it looks."
- Phillip Brooks
"Truth may be stretched, but cannot be broken, and always gets above
falsehood, as oil does above water"
- Miguel Cervantes
JanG
defining what a cult is, is difficult.
similarly, in science, there is no established definition for what a weed is; at least i have found none.
there is no clear-cut way to separate and define a weed from other non-weed plant life by logical methods.
The difference is that in the Army etc they person knows they are going to be manipulated and coerced etc and they consent to this when they join. They read the small print and agree.
In cults they person is deceived into becoming a member and does not consent to being manipulated and coerced .... they re not given the small print to read at all. When they do get to see it it is too late.
That is the basis of the 'thought contol' paradigm.
JanG
i'm intersted in finding out more information on the formation of the bibical canon.
i know the catholics did it, but i was interested in knowing what all they chose from and why!
does anyone know of any good sites or books about this!.
http://www.gty.org/~phil/hall.htm
These should keep you busy for a while .......
http://www.hivolda.no/asf/kkf/rel-stud.html
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/
http://www.bible.ca/indexHistory.htm
JanG
please: pass this on to all ozzie ex-jws you know of.
thanks jang.
jw and exjw australian women research.
Please: Pass this on to all Ozzie ex-jws you know of. Thanks JanG
JW and exJW Australian women research
Hello, my name is Mim Hughes and I am a doctoral candidate at the University
of Southern Australia in Adelaide SA. I begin my dissertation formally at the
uni in June of this year, I am enrolled and I am putting out a request for JW
and exJW Australian women who would like to be partners in my research on the
experiences of women who are or were Jehovah's witnesses from a personal and
political spectrum.
I am a Canadian, I was a JW myself for 22 of my 35 years and I am currently
living in British Columbia Canada, and will be here for about 3 more months
before heading to Australia. All participants can be assured of complete
anonimity and research ethics will be applied to this work and strictly
adhered to by myself. All legalities and formalities will be observed:)
If this sounds like something you would be interested in I can be reached at
[email protected] for further information.
Thank you:)
Mim Hughes
JanG
