I've often wondered about that too. I just happened to be born into a family of devout JWs. Is there no hope for the kid who just happened to be born in the Middle East? Not his fault where he ended up. Plus considering that we as humans are made in God's image, if we're sympathetic towards other faiths and peoples who didn't have a choice of where they were born and what faith they were indoctrinated into, wouldn't God be sympathetic too? I feel like Abraham when he was making the case for sparing Sodom and Gomorrah if only 5 righteous souls could be found in the city. Or God's sympathy towards the Ninehvites after Jonah prophesied to them. It seems cruel and unfair to believe God would terminate whole peoples who could not change where they were born and how they were raised. What does the WT call that? Community guilt or something?
miseryloveselders
JoinedPosts by miseryloveselders
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272
*Grace* According to JW's. Your thoughts will be appreciated.
by Lily Pie inhi, i'm a bit of a lurker on this site occasionally, just to help me understand my jw relative.
i am so curious to ask this question, but i fear asking a practicing jw, because you know, they can be a tad evasive, and maybe defensive too.
lutherans say.
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35
Did you ever do something for this religion that now makes you shudder ?
by man in black inback in the early 80's right after i was married the main driving point i kept hearing at the meetings was "do more,,, pioneer ".. well being the young impressionable jw couple that we were, .
my wife is a speech therapist, so working pt was no problem, but i ended up working construction, cleaning carpets, and shoveling snow at all hours with the brothers, and i worked like a d*** fool at all hours.. funny how there was so much support for me to work with the witnesses, but once the decision was made work could be very iffy at times.. and the main thing that just causes me to cringe now is how so many of the witnesses in charge of the congregation thought that we did not need insurance, my wife had a policy with her school district, but my son and i did not.
granted medical expenses were not as bad then, but just the idea of thinking that we did not need it that god would watch over us just embarasses me to no end now.
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miseryloveselders
At a holiday lunch in the office I could have handled it a little more diplomatically. I've always made it a point not to bring attention to myself as a JW. One way or another the cat got out the bag. My supervisor approached me and stated he acknowledged my beliefs, but wanted me to enjoy the meal not as a way of celebrating the holiday, but just as his appreciation for me as an employee. Instead of just capitulating, my JW upbringing kicked in with steroids. I told him I couldn't do such a thing as my conscience would be troubled. That was my first mistake. The second mistake was I went down the street and purchased a lunch, and on top of that ate it seperately from my coworkers in my cubicle where they could all see. At that point I was inducted into what was in my boss' eyes as employees who have a poor attititude. Granted, to be fair I don't think the WT has ever in print, spelled out to handle that sort of situation they way I went about it. However don't underestimate the power of indoctrination. That guy is no longer my supervisor, but I see him occasionally and even though its been a handful of years since that event I still feel at times that I should apologize to him out of respect.
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Did You Have a Favored Place to Sit in the KH?
by snowbird indid you sit to the right, left, or in front of the podium?.
just curious.. syl.
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miseryloveselders
I prefer the back on the left hand side of the Hall. I'm such a hypocrite too as I've stated from the platform that The Friends should seat themselves closer to the podium and leave the back rows for latecomers, disabled, and those with young children. Meanwhile every meeting I sit in the left hand corner in the back. The best seat by far is out in the lobby when doing the attendant thing. Those chairs are like chairs you find in your grandma's house. Some nights getting off work I struggle keeping my eyes open sitting out there. Just when I get comfortable, here comes somebody wanting to talk about something, never fails. Some sister approaches me like, "Misery I believe my son is masturbating." I look back at her and go, "B##$ don't you see I'm trying to sleep?"
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Question for elders/former elders - or anyone else who knows
by tec inthis has been brought up here, so i want to see if i understand right.
as elders, did you read and study the bible thoroughly, or just the stuff that corresponds with the wt books and magazines?.
tammy.
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miseryloveselders
Thats a good question. Being a born-in, all I ever studied and used for research were WT publications. It wasn't until the past couple years when my instincts started going haywire that something was very wrong in this organization, that I stepped outside of WT related material. I love reading, and learning, so I've always shopped at Barnes N Noble and more recently Borders. I always avoided the Religious aisles like you could get HIV from touching any of that material. Since waking up, the past couple of years I've purchased several books dealing on Christian history, early beliefs, philosophy, and even purchased God Is Not Great by Christopher Hitchens, which is an awesome book by the way. I haven't finished it yet due to time, but what I have read so far is amazing. I started exploring philosophy before waking up. I bought Nietzsche's complete works, and Epictetus, and most recently Marcus Aurelius. I really like Epictetus' thoughts, and have been trying to incorporate it in my life. It really helps too.
Reflecting on some things, I don't think I can say that I ever studied the Bible thoroughly, other than JW doctrines, or what was on the School/Service meeting schedule. I thought for a long time I was studying the Bible thoroughly, but really I was only studying JW doctrines thoroughly. Thats my situation, but I've known brothers and sisters throughout the years who read different Bibles and publications not JW related, although its not common. My COBOE is well learned. He uses different Bibles not JW related from the platform. The guy is like a walking, living , breathing WT CD Rom. Fascinating whats in his brain.
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272
*Grace* According to JW's. Your thoughts will be appreciated.
by Lily Pie inhi, i'm a bit of a lurker on this site occasionally, just to help me understand my jw relative.
i am so curious to ask this question, but i fear asking a practicing jw, because you know, they can be a tad evasive, and maybe defensive too.
lutherans say.
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miseryloveselders
hi miseryloves
I have consistently said faith inspires works and not the other way round! The underserved kindness we get off Jehovah is not by our works. It's understanding that having faith means you simply have no choice but to do works, it is your faith that pushes you to do them. If I breathe in then I breathe out, that is similar to how Faith and works are linked.
If You truly have Faith that Jehovah is our our Almighty and One true God and that the message we have been given to preach by his son saves lifes then why would preaching be a chore?
I'll tell you why I and probably many other JWs consider it a chore. I don't know where you reside, but I'm in the States, in the northeast. Most of the religious people in my city are Christian of various denominations. We have some Jews, some Muslims, Humanists, Atheists, etc.. We have it all, but mostly Christians. So when myself and others go out in field service, who are we going to come across for the most part? Other Christians. Doctrinally speaking we have some differences obviously, but for the most part our beliefs are the same. You ever hear the phrase, "preaching to the choir?" Thats essentially what we do when we're out in field service. Our work is more irritating to others rather than lifesaving, rarely is it comforting to those we meet, and we may possibly even be guilty of judging. Now you might ask how is it judgemental? By us supporting the WT's view that all religions are false, including Christian denominations, we're judging and condemning the public for not believing in what we believe. If a person tells me he's Christian, and has faith in Jesus, who am I judge him? Yet thats exactly what I do when I attempt a conversation blocker stating something along the lines of, "you pray the Lord's prayer, right", as I try to engage him with the purpose of undermining his beliefs. Make no mistake about it, thats what our main objective is in field service, to undermine other people's beliefts, all because we judge them as not having truth. (Matt 7:1-5) Lets talk about truth while we're at it.
What I find particulary atrocious about this is that the differences that JWs have with other Christian denominations tend to be over matters that are grey and subject to debate and criticizm. The accuracy of JW beliefs isn't what you'd call certain or truth, as evidenced by some of the excellant posts and threads on this forum. Not to mention the WT has had to altar the belief system of JWs NOT because the light got brighter, but because they were dead wrong. There's no such thing as a true religion, when what we consider true turns out to be inaccurate, and our leadership has to adjust their position as a result. They do this all the while condemning other faiths as being false, even when the WT adjusts its doctrine to something that other Christian denominations were and are already teaching. A good example is the feelers WT is throwing out there regarding the 144,000 and whether the number is symbolic or specific. Time will tell if that doctrine was another error as opposed to truth.
Now you agree with me that works are a result of our faith. From what the Bible tells about Jesus, he not only was concerned with His father's name and promoting the kingdom as a secure hope to look forward to, but he also took the time to assist those that are poor, and those that were sick. Those activities are viewed upon poorly by the WT. This mentality is present even in local congregations as many congregations don't even take care of their own. The exception would be in medical related matters where blood could become an issue. Typicall though, in the GB's opinion the only thing JWs need to do or should want to do, is continue to preach no matter how ineffective it may be. What's happened Debator, is the average JW isn't preaching because they want to, but because they're pressured encouraged to do so. The average JW sees the lack of results from field service, and it goes against the logic of anyone with common sense to continue in a work so ineffective, especially considering we're often preaching to the choir. So lets say a JW decides he/she is going to go volunteer in a neighborhood cleanup, or a food bank, or maybe a walk-a-thon or race for a cure. There's no scripture that would condemn these activities. However, if it became common knowledge what this JW was participating in such activities, at the very least they would be looked upon poorly. Worst case scenario, an Elder may do some shepharding, especially if this JWs volunteering caused them to miss meetings or field service occasionally. So at that point I have to ask, what happened to a person's conscience motivating their actions? Ohh, thats right, the average JW doesn't have a bible trained conscious because all of their decisions are made by the WT. Even when a JW wakes up from the stupor they've been in for a long time, they realize that making their own decisions isn't to be taken likely due to the rest of the congregation still being in a stupor. Its like waking up in the film 28 Days Later where a bunch of zombies are running around seeking to infect nonzombies.
So when its all said and done, for the most part JWs don't perform their activities from the heart. I used to believe we did, but no more. JWs do what they've been trained and pressured to do. Its not from the heart. I cant judge all of them, but I can say as a born in that more than a few fall under this category.
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272
*Grace* According to JW's. Your thoughts will be appreciated.
by Lily Pie inhi, i'm a bit of a lurker on this site occasionally, just to help me understand my jw relative.
i am so curious to ask this question, but i fear asking a practicing jw, because you know, they can be a tad evasive, and maybe defensive too.
lutherans say.
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miseryloveselders
In encouraging our faith and the works we do by Faith we are simply strengthening ourselves.
You have it backwards. Faith compels the works but works is not a road to salvation. If man had that kind of power then the sacrafice of Christ was for not, it has no meaning, it was done for nothing. There is nothing man can do to save himself other than have faith. That's it.
Galatians 2:15-16
15 "We who are Jews by birth and not 'Gentile sinners' 16 know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.
Well put. Me personally this is my take on works, and why I don't have a problem with people who view works as something being absolutely necessary. My view is that as long as the works are a reflection of whats in the heart, meaning a faith and love of Christ and His Father, than there's nothing wrong with "works." Where the WT dropped the ball, is how they go about "encouraging" works. The WT is notorious for changing the meaning of words. Encouraging in WT speak means a knife planted at your back under the threat of being marked, or losing your family, or not doing enough on behalf of Christ's brothers, the annointed. There's far too many JWs who go out in field service, attend meetings, attend conventions, not because they really want to, but because they're pressured into doing. Others are trained to do that as born-ins, similar to teaching and training a dog to take a poop on a newspaper in a certain section at the house. The dog doesn't take a dump there because he likes to, but because he was trained to.
After a while the JW realizes something is very wrong, but isn't savy to figure out exactly what it is as they're trying to see the forest from the trees. A good example of this is the average hours spent in the ministry across the nation. It typically swings around 9.5-10.5 hours monthly. People are capable of putting in more hours, but they don't want to for a host of different reasons including everything from apathetic territories, to contempt for The Friends due to excessive familiarity with the congregation their in. Not to mention they're exhausted from the daily demands of life while trying to balance out what the WT told them to do in the name of God and His Son. Most who go out in field service aren't doing it because they love Jehovah, or Jesus. No, its done because this is whats expected of them. The repurcussions of not doing so include being viewed poorly by others in their congregation, being marked, and estrangement from family and so called friends. Sometimes it becomes so ingrained that they even start to believe that they're doing it because they love God and Christ. Its really amazing how the WT has perfected this. I tip my hat to them.
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Do You Truly Believe A Certain Politician Or Political Party WILL Bring About Real Change?
by minimus insoooo many thought obama was the savior and now scores of people are abandoning him and his policies.
the pendulum swings and you hear how we need a republican to bail us out of our mess.. do you really believe a single person or party can make the changes for the country or the world ?
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miseryloveselders
Absolutely not. I find it sad that posters on here have traded being a delusional JW to being a delusional elephant, donkey, or teabagger. I hate politicians, hate em all. I don't give a flying you know what about them, there families, their friends, any of that nonsense. If those planes would have hit congress that day, more than a few people in this country wouldn't have lost sleep.
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miseryloveselders
Several years ago I was in a supermarket. I walked in and knew exactly where I needed to go for whatever item my dad sent me to get. So I was walking kinda fast, as I hate shopping and wanted to get out of there ASAP. I walked by the cashiers and baggers, and there was this bagger who was one of the baddest women I've ever seen. I mean this woman was serious. Probably a college girl. You know how they sometimes chain off certain checkout aisles that aren't being used? Well I was so enthralled with her, that I walked right through the chains of the aisle two or three lanes from her aisle. When I did it, you heard this huge BAM!! Pieces of chains were falling from the sky. I walked through it so hard, that I ripped solid plastic and wood from the different sides of the aisles that the chains were attached to. I looked at what I did, and then I looked over at the hot bagger and said, "my fault." Then I turned around, walked out of the store and didn't go back in that store for a good year or so. I wouldn't recognize her today if I saw her again as since then I've seen way too many beautiful women to remember any one of them at random. But that day, she by far was the illest woman I've ever seen in my early 20ish life.
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Were you ever embarrassed or somewhat ashamed when the WT patted themselves on the back in their own articles?
by miseryloveselders ini was browsing through the december 2010 awake, and noticed an article on the earthquake that happened in haiti earlier this year.
it didn't take long for the article to disturb me.
the third paragraph initiated the sanctimonious tone that is present througout the article.
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miseryloveselders
I was browsing through the December 2010 Awake, and noticed an article on the earthquake that happened in Haiti earlier this year. It didn't take long for the article to disturb me. The third paragraph initiated the sanctimonious tone that is present througout the article. I typed it below.
In the city of Jacmel, Ralphendy, 11 year of age, lay trapped under a partially collapsed building. For hours, a city rescue team worked feverishly to release him. Repeated aftershcoks forced them to abandon their efforts because of fear that the fractured upper floors would crash down on them. Philippe, a missionary of Jehovah's Witnesses, refused to give up, explaining, "I could not bear to leave Ralphendy there to die." Philippe and three others squeezed through a narrow space under the broekn building and inched their way forward to where Ralphendy lay, his feet held fast by fallen debris. From midnight on, theycautiously chipped away. With every tremor, they heard the concrete overhead shift and crack. At5:00am, more than 12 hours after the quake, they pulled Ralphendy out to safety.
Here's another paragraph that I found to be irritating on page 15.
It had been 150 years since Haiti's last great quake. Haiti had therefore largely left off constructing buildings that resisted earthquakes in favor of those that protected the population from hurricanes and floods. Hence most of the block walls and heavy concrete roofs were no match for the magnitude 7.0 tremor. However the Haiti office of Jehovah's Witnesses, completed in 1987, was designed in accord with accepted seismic construction standards. Although located near the eastern edge of Port-au-Prince, it suffered virtually no damage.
Here's another beauty from the following page.
When the quake struck, seven year old Islande looked out of her home and saw power lines snapping and showers of sparks. Inside, the walls buckled and blocks cascaded down, breaking her leg and seriously injuring her. After she was lifted from the debris, her father, Johnny, drove Islande just across the Dominican border to a hospital. She was airlifted to a hospital in the country's capital, Santo Domingo. But when Johnny later called the hospital, Islande was not there.
For two days Johnny searched everywhere for Islande, without result. She had been taken to a different hsopital, where a hospital volunteer heard her praying to Jehovah. "Do you love Jehovah?" the volunteer asked. "Yes," Islande replied through her tears. "Then don't worry," the volunteer assured her. "Jehovah will help you." Johnny asked the Dominiccan Republic office of Jehovah's Witnesses for help in finding Islande. A Witness named Melanie offered to search for her. As Melanie inquired at one hospital, the volunteer who had heard Islande praying overheard the conversation and pointed the little girl out. Soon, Islande was reunited with her family.
One last paragraph I wanted to mention.
One Haitian customs official, while approving the importation of the construction materials, commented: "Jehovah's Witnesses were among the first ones who came across the border to get help for people. They don't just talk aboiut helping, they really do it." In the first few months following the quake, 1500 homes had already been built by the Witnesses for those who had lost theirs.
Articles like this have always irritated me. Throughout the article there's a sanctimonious tone that neglects the efforts that people throughout the entire globe contributed assistance when this tragedy occured. There's a couple brief mentions of other relief efforts, but this article's MO was to highlight how wonderful the Witnesses are. What I'm wondering is, was the article a reaction to people thinking JWs isolate themselves from the rest of mankind? Was this article an oppurtunistic attempt by the WT to make itself lappear better than all the other individuals and organizations that helped with relief efforts in Haiti?
When I do the right thing by people, I don't do it because I want it advertised. I do it because its the right thing to do. I'm not looking to "provide a witness" when I return a lost sum of money. How many articles have we had like that where the JW returns the lost money, and then states their reason for returning the money as, "Well I'm one of Jehovah's Witnesses." I have to ask the question, when someone who's not a JW does the same thing, what do they say? "I'm an atheist!" "I'm a Catholic!" "I'm a member of NAMBLA!" It irritates me that the WT prints this tripe for the public. An article such as this should have been reserved for the JW only WT, not for the public Awake. When this tragedy happened, a brother at my hall made the announcement that JWs were the first on the scene. He stated, "We did it again! We beat everyone else!" I felt so disgusted hearing him make that comment. At the same time though, it put things in perspective for me. This religion is too much about appearances to the point that it overshadows what genuine love is left in the organization.
Let me ask you, do articles such as this irritate you? Am I not being fair to the WT regarding this article? If I'm being overly critical, please by all means call me out on it. I'm not looking to argue, but I want to make sure I'm being fair.
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Here is the link to the new KS book!!!
by elderelite ini decided to take the heat for brother yancey knotingham on this one and post the book myself directly!!
of course, bigmac, littlewich, mosche and all the others who think there is no reason for anyone to be an elder/fader or that elders cant provide anything usefull to the group, need not click the link...just saying.
ks 2010. .
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miseryloveselders
EE, you know you're wrong for that right?