those people on that cover were supposed to represent a group of people that would still live on into the new order.
in your best guess, how old were most of those 16 people at the time the photo was taken, and how many do you suppose are still alive today?.
remember, that wt was printed in 1984, nearly 27 years ago.
Third row from the back or the middle row: second from left - man - Steiman. He was the chiropractor. Heard that he was later dfd (not for apostasy).
At his age, how'd he get DF'd, and not for apostacy? What could a 90 something year old man get DF'd for?
gregor posted a "true grit" thread a few days ago but i didn't want to read it for fear of "spoilers".
as a jw youth, i was not allowed to watch the original "true grit" because it was too violent.
anyway, on to the opinion poll: for those who have seen both the original and the coen brother's remake, would you recommend seeing the john wayne version first?.
This is a good question. I'm yet to see either version, and I'm not exactly a fan of John Wayne. He just seemed like cornball to me. Prefer Clint Eastwood over him any day. When I found out that this was a remake of a John Wayne film, I said why bother. Then I found out it was a Coen Brothers film, and in my opinion, they can do no wrong. I think I'm gonna see this latest version first, and may not bother at all to see the original version.
everytime i have ever told an active jw about this forum and described it's designation they all, in essence, say the same thing.. they say that we are nitpickers, that we are all just rubbed the wrong way and can't get out of the state of disgruntlement that we have allowed ourselves to enter.
some throw in supernatural elements some just stick to human imperfection and call it murmurings.. these kind of assertions highly imply that our anger is exaggerated or misguided; that we don't have all facts and are drawing highly speculative conclusions.. as participants on this forum how do you refute such a claim?.
my first thought would be to point out that "murmurings" is what created the watchtower to start with.
I'm not an Ex-JW yet, but I'm still pretty disgruntled, but mostly I'm sad and defeated. Some days I feel angry, cheated, taken advantage of, lied to, depressed, stressed, misanthropic, just general malaise I guess you could say. Its rough some days cuz I don't know exactly who to lash out at. Like, I feel somebody has to pay for what they did to me, to us. I hate the thoughts circulating in my mind, and the emotions in my heart, and I tried a couple ways of running from them. I tried drinking a little more, and taking sedatives in an effort to be robotic. I figured I can work, handle congregational responsbilities, life's responsibilities, and when I get home by myself, I'll drink a brew or two and pop a sedative. That way I'll never have time to really think about all thats happened in my life that lead me to this point. The problem with that was I ended up waking in the morning with no recollection of what I did the night before. In some cases I posted things on here inappropriate, or I would wake up with stains on my tee shirt from the buffalo wings I ordered the night before, that I didn't remember ordering or eating. The stained tee shirt and Google cache doesn't lie though.
I guess what really burns, is the lost time. Considering how low I might live till, I may have wasted anywhere from a 1/3 to a 1/2 of my life voluntarily slaving for a religious publishing company. I try to view my own life as golden compared to other people. I could have been born addicted to drugs, or paralyzed, cerebal palsey, autistic, HIV, or Cancer, there's a million things that could have went wrong. I just happened to be unlucky enough to be the son of devout Jehovah's Witnesses. All these wasted years and oppurtunities, and this system of things is still here. Still fucking here, and doesn't appear to be going anywhere. Its not right what they've done to me, to us. Somebody has to pay for this.
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i saw the image below on reddit this morning, and it reminded me of how wt doesn't have a grip, at all, on any real truth.
As the one Russian ice-skating circus bear said to the other - you know, these anti-biting masks just snap right off...
LOL
Good pic LeavingWT.
many people in positions of teaching others the doctrine of their particular religion do not actually believe the doctrine themselves.
this is a fascinating article from daniel dennett and linda lascola.
i could relate to some of the expressions made.. http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/non-believing-clergy.pdf.
Well, for one, most people have to be cracking the national average for the national average to exist, right? Do you think it's in the realm of possibility that the published average hours per month are not in reflection of actual involvement?
-Sab
Ohhh, without a doubt!!! When you see articles discouraging ones from fudging their hours, that speaks volumes right there. Another thing, as Franklin Massey mentioned, there always those who are scrambling at the end of the month to get double digit hours or right underneath the average. How far do you think they'd go to avoid ending up on the elder's radar? The same with elder's, how far will they go to avoid ending up on the CO's radar? Another poster mentioned something else in another thread, I can't remember if it was Undercover, or OTWO, but it was sooooo truthful!!! There's publishers who show up at the field service meeting point, on time, well just say, 9:30am. Because the group overseer is hung over from the night before, the group is a little sluggish getting to the territory, and to be fair to the Alcoholic In Chief, maybe the territory is a little bit out of the way from the meeting point. So they don't actually get to the group, and start field service until 10:05am. But there will be publishers who stopped at the laundrey mat and dropped off a couple older magazines on the table beside one of the washing machines at 9:25am. They did this before showing up at the meeting point. So they conclude that they started their time at 9:25, and even though they didn't actually start any doors with the rest of the group until 10:05, they've convinced themselves that they've already got 40 minutes. Ever hear of the Pioneer Shuffle? I've known older sisters who've placed magazines in the windows of their homes, while they were getting dressed for field service and convinced themselves that this was acceptable for counting time. The WT has printed articles of individuals preaching to animals, and counting it as time.
I'll give you one last example, and its one that actually hurts me a little bit to relate. There's an older sister I view almost as a grandmother. I love her, and it hurts me to see her physical health deteriorate. I visited her a few weeks ago, and during my visit, she started crying and sobbing. She mumbled that it pains her that she can't get out into the field anymore. You know, in times past, I would read articles in the literature where it encouraged older ones that their limited service was still acceptable to Jehovah, and I never believed older ones had those misgivings until I got appointed and they started really expressing themselves to me. It hurt me to see her like this. I reassured her the best I could and emphasized that all she's done would not go unnoticed or forgotten by Jehovah. Then the indoctrinated side of me kicked in. I then stated, maybe we can organize letter writing, or phone witnessing here so you can have a share, and at least get 15 minutes in? Later on after giving it some thought, I felt like scum. I wanted to step in front of a bus. The reason I share that with you, is to show you the pressure that some have allowed the WT to put on their shoulders. That pressure will lead some to fudge hours, stretch hours by rounding, and a host of other questionable ways to count time.
The WTS knows this, make no mistake about it, they know whats going on. Their articles reflect their awareness of the reality they try to shield themselves from. The COs and DOs are reporting to the Branches. The Branches are reporting the New York. They have their finger on the pulse of this organization. I don't doubt for one moment they know what they're doing. To answer your original question in yellow, the leadership may be printing an actual national average based off of what congregation secretaries are submitting every month. Whether the figures from the secretary are accurate or not, well that's debateable.
many people in positions of teaching others the doctrine of their particular religion do not actually believe the doctrine themselves.
this is a fascinating article from daniel dennett and linda lascola.
i could relate to some of the expressions made.. http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/non-believing-clergy.pdf.
MLE, would you say your position on field service apathy is debatable from a Witness perspective? Or is it just too blantent for debate?
-Sab
Well Sab, I have to give people the benefit of the doubt because at the end of the day, who am I? I'm not in a position to judge anyone's motives, and even with those who's family and work schedule's I'm familiar with, there's things I may be not taking into consideration. Fear plays a role into various ones hesitating to do door to door, myself included. Its not the easiest thing to show up uninvited to a complete stranger's door and discuss non-dinner table related matters. There's other factors to consider as well, such as fatigue from life's other demands. Some people can balance both, others can't. Maybe they're discouraged from the apathy from the people in the territories, which I've said from the platform that I'm discouraged at times for that very reason. There's other reasons that are legitimate I'm sure.
For myself though, and many others whom I know, for the most part, it can be said we can do more. There's times I've been in the audience and a Ministerial Servant was doing a Service Meeting part on a subject such as... well just say The Importance of the Ministry! These articles are a dime a dozen filled with stupid questions and ridiculous, baseless assertions such as, "Why do we find joy in the ministry, yet view it as important?" I or another publisher might raise our hand, and when the microphone reaches us, say, "because we love our neighbors and we have an important life saving message to give them." The brother on the platform will nod his head in approval with a creepy smile on his face. Meanwhile that brother barely cracks the national average, and goes on more vacations then Bob Barker is giving away. But nobody says anything, because they're all guilty of the same lack of enthusiasm in one way or another. Their wives aren't cracking the national average, their children aren't either.
There's a telling picture in one of the more recent books, I can't recall the title, as its slipping me. There's a picture of two men in field service. One is ringing the bell, the other is walking away looking at his watch with an expression on his face that says, "Well, its 11:45am, I did my hour and a half, I'm outta here!!" While the brother closest to the door is looking at him in disbelief like, "how can he leave so abrubptly? We have lives to save!" Somebody needs to scan that photo, as its very telling, and not the exception to the rule. Its prevelant in your average congregation, USA.
Give you another example, this Sunday is the day of the big announcement regarding for the month of April, they're dropping the Auxilliary Pioneer times to 30 hours "for a limited time only." As in only April 2011. If I was a gambling man, I'd be willing to bet the powers that be in Walkhill are fishing and using anything they can for bait. Trying anything to motivate the average publisher, and even those taking the lead. Like Wooo-hooo!! I only need to get thirty hours and I get to sit in half of the Pioneer meeting when the CO visits!!! Yippy Skippy!! Reality Check. Some of those devoid of personality and with complexes may bite on this lore, but most will just view this as business as usual. My CO told us in his meeting with us, "It would be nice if some of you, and really all of you can take advantage of this provision from the slave. Think of the example you'll be setting for the sheep. When they see you shepherds out there, they'll think wow, look at him. Maybe I can do this too!" It was so pathetically delusional, that it was comical. But hey, if it makes him feel good, good for him.
I'm a firm believer in what resides in one's heart, is what motivates him. If we really believe that this work, this door to door work is a life saving work and so very important, then why aren't we more gung-ho about it? Why does the Slave feel the need to bend our arms to make us get involved with the all so very important work? Why do the same ones get interviewed at assemblies and conventions every year? Why won't they interview the average publisher barely cracking the national average? Why does the literature seem so far removed from reality? The answer is, the average JW's beliefs, including elders and ministerial servants isn't as strong as they'd like you to believe.
i attended a huge well known "show" for the industry i am in today.
i walk in and who do i see to my right?
my elder uncle who i have not seen or spoke to in almost 2 years.
That is weird, and they say this religion doesn't break up families, or at least strain families. Utter nonsense. Its so weird running into someone disfellowshipped or disassociated. Just awkward. Being a JW is awkward enough socially without the sanctions. You sure he didn't see you? There's been times I've seen someone DFd, and I just act like I didn't see them, and try to avoid having contact with them in general so as to avoid an awkward situation.
many people in positions of teaching others the doctrine of their particular religion do not actually believe the doctrine themselves.
this is a fascinating article from daniel dennett and linda lascola.
i could relate to some of the expressions made.. http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/non-believing-clergy.pdf.
If this forum's activity is any indication, especially when it comes to threads that have several thousand views, yet only four pages of comments, I believe there's a significant amount of appointed men who aren't believers. The same way the preacher in your link justifies playing the role of a believer for the sake of other believers, many appointed JWs do the same thing. This message board wouldn't exist if it wasn't for undercover nonbelievers needing an outlet to express themselves while outwardly appeasing family members and close friends.
One of the main eye openers for me that there are a lot of nonbelievers in Kingdom Halls across the country was, field service time. I'd look at the field service time of various, random publishers, including elders and ministerial servants. Their time would in many cases be less than the national average, or right at the national average. Rarely did anyone exceed the national average by even single digits. Double digits, forget about it, its just not happening. The thing is, I know the congregation, I know the families that make it up, I know what they do for a living, I'm very familiar with their schedule. These folks, myself included, were and are all capable of putting more time in the field ministry, but we don't. I would ask myself why aren't they getting more hours? Then I'd ask myself the same question, and the answer kinda scared me. The best part is, all of us would sit in those service meetings and comment about the joy we have from participating in the ministry. I'd ask myself again, if its so joyful, then why do I and so many others have to force ourselves to get only 10 hours a month? Why do Service Meeting parts have to bend our arms and give us guilt trips in order to get out in field service? If we really believe in the importance of the preaching work, why aren't we doing it. Why aren't those taking the lead in the average congregation, doing it in a exemplary fashion?
I think it all falls back to a lack of beliefs. It would be easier to appease family and friends by showing up at the Kingdom Hall every Sunday for an hour and a half, and nothing more throughout the week. But trying do all of the things that make a JW exemplary despite not believing in it all, is difficult to say the least. Something has to give eventually. The proof is in the pudding, namely people's field service times, and the literature's constant theme of "do more, you're not doing enough!" When a nonbeliever's heart isn't in it, there's only so much guilt tripping to get him motivated to do what he doesn't believe in doing.
i don't usually post regarding my personal relationship, but i need some help.. i've been married for 20+ years (married young, both of us raised as witnesses), and my wife and i have kids.
my wife feels like i've disappointed her, made a fool of her, and betrayed her when i stopped being a witness.
other than the witness-thing we seem to have a pretty good marriage, but she can't get over the fact that i'm never going to be a witness again.
She's becoming apostate by osmosis
Classic.
last week's results:.
iron head 3 - 1. keyser soze 2 - 2. darth plaugeis 2 - 2. tec 2 - 2. doubting bro 3 - 1. miseryloveseleders 2 - 2. .
nfl divisional playoff games.
I'm glad you're doing these threads Iron Head. Its nice to have something lively and easy spirited on this forum. I get tired of the heated debates at times. Increases my anxiety levels!
I'll take New England over the Jets.
Seatle over Chicago.
These last two I'm going back and forth on, I just don't know who will show up. Oh well.
Green Bay over Atlanta
The Ravens/Steelers game is the one I'm really hesitant picking sides on. I'm gonna go with the Ravens though.
