did you use wt dates as well as things found from a secular perspective?
if a witness was researching the 607 dates strictly from watchtower info, would it still become clear they are wrong?
or does the wtbs *make* the dates add up...?
Scholar
Post 1855
| You are correct in that secular scholars do use the Bible, secular sources and scholarship to prove 586 or 587 BCE but the celebrated WT scholars use and can use the same identical information to prove 607 BCE. |
So you are saying that celebrated WT scholars can use sources like Ptolemy's Canon along with tens of thousands of cuneiform documents to prove 607 BCE?
i have a new take on the 587/586 "controversy".
this is of course, speaking for me over 3 years after i left.
i realize that if you are first leaving, this is a big deal.
scholar
Post 1853
The 607 BCE and 587 BCE have these in common (according to you).
As you stated in another post, I have a problem on my hands. However, I have learned today that those secular scholars are uncovering more and more evidence that points to 587 BCE. Meanwhile, you're still directing me to WT publications and writing Brooklyn Bethel.
thought i'd share this little bit of 'research' with you all.
i remember sometime back when i was visiting my wife's kh, they sang a song from the song book that contained the words, present truth.
i did a quick search on google to see what people on the internet were saying about this phrase.
Yes, it does indeed appear that Jehovah's Witnesses take present truth to mean, "What the Watchtower currently teaches." What is sad is how witnesses must ask themselves, "What does the WT say instead of, what does the Bible say?" Of course, they will never admit this publically and especially to 'non-believers' such as myself.
It's too bad they don't just admit that they were wrong and say that we've been corrected rather than keep saying, "Jehovah has given us 'new light.'" But if they did that, then I guess their whole claim to being in The Truth TM would fall apart.
did you use wt dates as well as things found from a secular perspective?
if a witness was researching the 607 dates strictly from watchtower info, would it still become clear they are wrong?
or does the wtbs *make* the dates add up...?
Farkel
| The fact that there is no year zero is irrelevant when dealing with dates starting and ending before the Common Era. |
Yes, I know. I was just illustrating to scholar (and everyone else) that 624 - 18 = 606 and pointing out that the WTS used to teach 606 as the starting year for the gentile times before (oops) it was discovered that year zero does not exist.
Now the documentation put forth by thetrueone at http://www.2001translation.com/587_or_607.htm uses 625 BCE as the starting date for Neb's reign so the math works. This makes me suspect that the WT use to teach 624 and now teaches 625 after discovering the fact that there is no year zero. Either that or scholar just got his dates confused.
one of the things i hear from jws and even my mother is "if being a jw is so bad, where else would we go?
" or along the same line, but different wording "i know the society isn't perfect, but where else do they teach about jehovah?".
so i got to thinking last night, is there really a fds?
My thoughts and prayers go out to you.
| So I got to thinking last night, is there REALLY a FDS? |
Technically no, at least not in a sense of how the WT teaches it. Now, from what I understand I think the faithful and wise servant (or FDS) really composes of the whole body of Christ. In other words, all Christians. What the WTS teaches is a total sham.
| But is there someone or something out there that is providing food at the proper time? |
The best I can come up with is the Holy Spirit working within the body of Christ. Again, that makes the whole body of Christ the faithful and wise servant.
| But realistically, does anyone know of a group (not organization - but group) that is unified, Bible based and not wakko? |
Be careful not to confuse unity with conformity. Compared to our country, countries with dictatorial governments appear unified but would anyone trade our seemingly chaotic government for one that forces all of its members to conform to one set of dictates?
I don't think there is one church denomination that offers what the witnesses offer and if there was, it would most likely be just as culty as the witnesses. All Bible believing churches are united in Christ even though they may occasionally 'bicker' about peripheral doctrines.
thought i'd share this little bit of 'research' with you all.
i remember sometime back when i was visiting my wife's kh, they sang a song from the song book that contained the words, present truth.
i did a quick search on google to see what people on the internet were saying about this phrase.
Sylvia,
Indeed it is. When I saw that 'present truth' was actually in the Bible, I checked it against all the English language translations on Bible Gateway. It appears that the KJV, Young's Literal Translation, Derby Translation, and Wycliff New Testament uses 'present truth.' All others use something like truth, or truth that you have now (or at this time). I believe truth is unchanging so the whole idea of 'truth' changing from one instance to another does not make sense, only our opinions or best guests about what the truth is changes.
OTWO,
Good catch. I remember reading about Jonas Wendell on wikipedia from the link about Charles Russell on wikipedia. The Proclaimers book gives a little info about how Russell got some of his beliefs from the Adventists. Interesting on Russell where it states that his followers thought of HIM as the faithful and wise servant and 'was described by the Watch Tower after his death as having been made "ruler of all the Lord's goods".'
thought i'd share this little bit of 'research' with you all.
i remember sometime back when i was visiting my wife's kh, they sang a song from the song book that contained the words, present truth.
i did a quick search on google to see what people on the internet were saying about this phrase.
Thought I'd share this little bit of 'research' with you all. I remember sometime back when I was visiting my wife's KH, they sang a song from the song book that contained the words, present truth. I did a quick search on Google to see what people on the Internet were saying about this phrase. Interestingly, the only major branch of religion that I saw in the first couple of pages of results were Adventist (though there were lots of churches that used it in their title). In wikipedia, all references were to adventist groups.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Present_Truth
How enlightening...
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Welcome to the board
did you use wt dates as well as things found from a secular perspective?
if a witness was researching the 607 dates strictly from watchtower info, would it still become clear they are wrong?
or does the wtbs *make* the dates add up...?
Scholar
Post 1852
Okay, in all seriousness. You have an opportunity now to prove 607 BCE for anyone who cares, which right now includes me. I realize you are probably not taking this exchange seriously as I have made some comments in the past regarding your 'scholar-ness' as questionable. However, all jokes aside. If you have proof, present it. If you have already done so before, show us what you've done.
Here's what you've given me so far:
I don't understand why proving these claims should be so tough. I also don't understand why, if indeed 607 BCE is correct, it is too tough to present facts that support it from sources outside of the watchtower.
| In working from 539 BCE to 607 BCE the celebrated WT scholars use the Bible and secular sources combined with the latest and best scholarship yhus proving 537 BCE along with seventy years arriving at 607 BCE |
The problem here is that secular scholars and historians can also use the Bible along with secular sources combined with the latest and best scholarship to prove 586 BCE with the seventy years falling between 609 BCE and 539 BCE. However, the facts concerning 586 BCE are readily available for anyone to check.
i don't know about you, but i enjoy doing comparisons, especially with wine.
felt like during and after each.
i think the music was intensely different...i really wish i remembered about my video ability on my phone for the 1st song, because the jw's performed their first new song out of the new song book.
Yeah, those KH meetings are pretty friggin boring compared to church worship.
Wow, Ben Stein looks so much younger in the film even though I think he is actually cooler now than I did back when that movie came out.
