Thanks avashai,
She may one day read 'apostate' material but I doubt that day will come anytime soon. I will definately keep your links handy when (or if) that day comes.
garyneal
JoinedPosts by garyneal
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26
Child Molestation and the Two Witness Rule
by garyneal inthis morning, as i was fixing breakfast, my wife and i got on the subject of religion (again) and i apologized to her for some of the things i said yesterday regarding the jehovah's witnesses.. in short, i said that given the way she treated me in regards to keeping me in the dark about certain financial situations, overdrawing her checking account and running up $500 in credit card debt due to her overdrafts that i am surprised the elder and his wife would approve of her activities in light of their teachings.
i said, "when you go to their house and study that book 'keeping yourself in god's love' with them, ask them what they would think of you taking such a nonchalant attitude over how you are managing the household finances and the way you respond to me when i inquire about the situation.
telling me that 'i should not worry' and that 'i am being fed and have a roof over my head' in such a way that i should just be quiet about it and let you be in charge.
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26
Child Molestation and the Two Witness Rule
by garyneal inthis morning, as i was fixing breakfast, my wife and i got on the subject of religion (again) and i apologized to her for some of the things i said yesterday regarding the jehovah's witnesses.. in short, i said that given the way she treated me in regards to keeping me in the dark about certain financial situations, overdrawing her checking account and running up $500 in credit card debt due to her overdrafts that i am surprised the elder and his wife would approve of her activities in light of their teachings.
i said, "when you go to their house and study that book 'keeping yourself in god's love' with them, ask them what they would think of you taking such a nonchalant attitude over how you are managing the household finances and the way you respond to me when i inquire about the situation.
telling me that 'i should not worry' and that 'i am being fed and have a roof over my head' in such a way that i should just be quiet about it and let you be in charge.
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garyneal
diamondiiz:
My wife never attended church (except occasionally with me) but was instead raised a Jehovah's Witness. She is now trying to become fully immersed into the Watchtower lifestyle as she believes that this is the only 'true' religion. Given the fact that she has both her mom and dad in it (along with several aunts and cousins), she feels right at home in the Watchtower organization. The fact that she is not baptized means that if she chooses to give it up now, she can at least know that her family will not shun her. Once she is baptized, there is no honorable way out (at least that is what I hear).
I told her about 1914 and how it is based on 607 B.C.E. and how that date is not supported by the vast majority of other sources (scholar's 'celebrated WT scholar' sources not withstanding). I also told her about the 1874 teaching and even told her about the pyramidology and astrology that Charles Russell used to predict 1914. When she does 'research' about the history of the Jehovah's Witnesses, she consults the Proclaimers book alone. I think she does not like the fact that I am discovering all of this information as it could be upsetting her neat packaged theology.
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17
Why Do Kingdom Halls Have no Windows?
by foolsparadise inanother fear tactic to make members paranoid?.
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26
Child Molestation and the Two Witness Rule
by garyneal inthis morning, as i was fixing breakfast, my wife and i got on the subject of religion (again) and i apologized to her for some of the things i said yesterday regarding the jehovah's witnesses.. in short, i said that given the way she treated me in regards to keeping me in the dark about certain financial situations, overdrawing her checking account and running up $500 in credit card debt due to her overdrafts that i am surprised the elder and his wife would approve of her activities in light of their teachings.
i said, "when you go to their house and study that book 'keeping yourself in god's love' with them, ask them what they would think of you taking such a nonchalant attitude over how you are managing the household finances and the way you respond to me when i inquire about the situation.
telling me that 'i should not worry' and that 'i am being fed and have a roof over my head' in such a way that i should just be quiet about it and let you be in charge.
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garyneal
Thanks Heartbreaker,
I think I will ask her to ask the elders the "right" way to treat a disfellowshipped person. Since she is currently an unbaptized publisher, I would not be surprised if the elders don't 'dance' around that question. I don't know but I do know that the elder she studies with seems to me to be a really nice guy. Perhaps he is one of the exceptions or perhaps it is a ruse to reel in a new convert (I don't know).
Wasanelder:
I happen to have that book but I keep it at work for fear that she may throw it away if she finds it. I told her about it and as usual she says that there may be more to it than that. All I can say in response is, "Has the Watchtower answered any of Raymond Franz's allegations? If not, why do they choose to remain silent?"
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Honestly, I find myself not knowing what to think at times about this organization and about the so called 'apostate opposers' of it. The fact that many posters here are atheists would certainly seem to play into the Watchtower's hands concerning those who leave the 'truth.' Though I can understand why someone who was hurt by the only religion that they knew, the religion that claimed to be the only true religion, would wonder if this whole God business is for real. I find myself actually being thankful that my parents were never really into going to church and that I only began attending church in my early 20's as oppose to being raised in one.
I find my wife at times even question the existence of God and thinking of Him as someone who is very egotistical to demand His creation to worship Him. But at the same time, she wants to do the 'right thing' and fears being destroyed by Him and since this religion has been taught to her since her childhood, she believes it is the only true religion.
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183
How many of you knew about the"Jesus is not your Mediator" teaching when you were JWs??
by Lady Liberty inhi everyone.... just curious how many of you knew when you were active, about the societys official teaching regarding jesus the mediator.
i was floored to find in my research, that they teach jesus is the mediator for the 144,000 only.
and it is only by our association with them that we might have salvation.. i don't know about you guys but i was blown away when i learned they taught this.
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garyneal
Another teaching that creates the same dissonance is the recognization that all non-jws who are not minors with one baptized jw parent, will be destroyed forever at Armageddon. jws dance around this one too. Could you elaborate on this please? I seem a little confused on this one. Is this scenario right:
My daughter, who is just my daughter and not a witness nor a Christian in a sense that since she is only 3 is not of the age to make such a decision, grows up and chooses not to be a witness (or maybe not even a Christian for that matter, who knows). However, assuming my wife makes her goal of becoming baptized, my daughter will have at least one JW parent. My daughter (and I) will be destroyed at armageddon? Is this right?
I'm confused here.
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26
Child Molestation and the Two Witness Rule
by garyneal inthis morning, as i was fixing breakfast, my wife and i got on the subject of religion (again) and i apologized to her for some of the things i said yesterday regarding the jehovah's witnesses.. in short, i said that given the way she treated me in regards to keeping me in the dark about certain financial situations, overdrawing her checking account and running up $500 in credit card debt due to her overdrafts that i am surprised the elder and his wife would approve of her activities in light of their teachings.
i said, "when you go to their house and study that book 'keeping yourself in god's love' with them, ask them what they would think of you taking such a nonchalant attitude over how you are managing the household finances and the way you respond to me when i inquire about the situation.
telling me that 'i should not worry' and that 'i am being fed and have a roof over my head' in such a way that i should just be quiet about it and let you be in charge.
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garyneal
This morning, as I was fixing breakfast, my wife and I got on the subject of religion (again) and I apologized to her for some of the things I said yesterday regarding the Jehovah's Witnesses.
In short, I said that given the way she treated me in regards to keeping me in the dark about certain financial situations, overdrawing her checking account and running up $500 in credit card debt due to her overdrafts that I am surprised the elder and his wife would approve of her activities in light of their teachings. I said, "When you go to their house and study that book 'Keeping Yourself in God's Love' with them, ask them what they would think of you taking such a nonchalant attitude over how you are managing the household finances and the way you respond to me when I inquire about the situation. Telling me that 'I should not worry' and that 'I am being fed and have a roof over my head' in such a way that I should just be quiet about it and let you be in charge." I then said, "If being a Jehovah's Witness is such a good thing and improves attitudes and marraiges, prove it. Why should I become a witness if this is what they allow or even condone?" She said, "Why should I try to prove anything?" Then I said, "Personally, I think that if I became a witness, in a year I would end up being disfellowshipped for apostacy because there would be some doctrinal issue that I disagree with." She said, "I think you'd be a better witness than I would." I said, "I doubt it, besides, from what I've been reading I think I am better off staying as far away from them as possible. These are people that one does not want to associate with."
As you can see, the exchange got a little heated. Personally the issue regarding finances is normal and has nothing to do with religion or a lack of it. My only problem was the attitude taken by her when I try to have a rational discussion with her over this or any other issue where she feels strongly about something. My way or the highway is the general response.
Anyway, back to this morning's apology. I apologized for the exchanged and said that I said some things that in hind sight were inappropriate. She said, "I just can't help but to think that if I were a Baptist, Holiness, or whatever, we would not be having these exchanges." I said, "I understand, but you got to understand the uniqueness of your religion. They put down all other religions claiming that they are the only ones who are right and then act in ways that make them out to look like hypocrits." I continued, "Think of the child molestation issue in regards to the witnesses. I understand that when it happens, the parents cannot report it to the police until the elders are consulted first. The elders require 'two witnesses' to validate the charge or otherwise, the offending brother is not disfellowshipped. Where will one find 'two eye witnesses' other than the offender and the victim in such a case? If the brother is not disfellowshipped, the parents of the victim are discouraged from contacting the authorities for fear of 'bringing reproach upon Jehovah's name.'" She did not believe this and stated that if something happened to our daughter, she would verify it first and if necessary press charges. I told her about Barbara Anderson's story though I could not remember the full story at the time. I told her that she was in the writing department at Bethel and had learned about the issues surrounding the Watchtower concering child molestation. I said, "How can they put down the Catholic church and their problems concerning priests and alter boys but deny or even cover up their owns issues regarding child abuse." I even told her that just before Barbara went public with her findings, she was disfellowshipped and the witnesses were told not to believe her testamony.
My wife said, "I think there are two sides to that story and she was not giving you the full picture. If this organization is truly engaged in this practice, then it is an organization that I do not want to be a part of. How could I believe that this is true?" I replied, "I don't know, it's too bad we cannot verify these things first hand. I could show you her testamony, but since she was disfellowshipped I know you will not read it."
Maybe some of the people on this board can relate and/or share their testamony. I've been to silentlambs.org but I guess given the way the Watchtower seems to operate, how can anyone convince the rank and file witness (or even those who have never been witnesses) that these things are really happening? A lot of the testamonies I share with my wife regarding WT issues don't seem to jive with her personal experiences. For example, the policy of shunning disfellowshipped people (including family) is something she has never seen happen in her personal experience. The disfellowshipped ones are still treated nicely by their JW family according to her experiences. The stories I read here about family members completely cutting off all relations with disfellowshipped ones are something she beleives (from the things she's personally witnessed) does not exist. She thinks all of this stuff is coming from a bunch of people who are mad and seeking to slander the organization because they want to do something the Bible does not approve of.
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183
How many of you knew about the"Jesus is not your Mediator" teaching when you were JWs??
by Lady Liberty inhi everyone.... just curious how many of you knew when you were active, about the societys official teaching regarding jesus the mediator.
i was floored to find in my research, that they teach jesus is the mediator for the 144,000 only.
and it is only by our association with them that we might have salvation.. i don't know about you guys but i was blown away when i learned they taught this.
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garyneal
I remember when I first stumbled on this at that http://www.4jehovah.org/ website. I asked my wife and of course she said that Jesus was her mediator. Then I told her not so according to the Watchtower and I quoted her the book. I did not know the full title of it "Worldwide Security Under the Prince of Peace." I just recalled the "Prince of Peace" part and asked her if she could get the book. She asked the elder and his wife and they both said, "Never heard of it." The elder's wife went on to say that sometimes former witnesses will publish books under the disguise of the Watchtower in an attempt to fool Jehovah's Witnesses. Sometimes they will appear at assemblies and try to spread lies through their 'counterfiet literature.'
I looked on that website again and told my wife the complete name of the book. She called her mom and lo and behold her mom had the book. I asked her mom, "Is Jesus you Mediator?" She said yes and I said, "Can you turn in the book to page ten?" She did, and I read the paragraph where it stated that the greater Moses (Jesus) is not the direct mediator for all of mankind but only for the 144,000. She still maintained that Jesus was her mediator because that is how they pray to Jehovah (in Jesus's name).
I got off the phone with her and thought about it for a moment. Then I asked my wife, "How come you can say that Jesus is you mediator, and your mom can say this but the Watchtower says no? It is like you and your mom are saying one thing and the Watchtower is saying something different." I let my wife read the photocopied Watchtower article published in 1989. After reading it she was like, "OH I GET IT!!!! Jesus is the direct mediator for the 144,000 and they mediate for us just like how Moses mediated for his direct reports and the direct reports mediated for the rest of Israel!!!!"
All I could think was WOW, drinking the Watchtower Koolaid.
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9
Scribblings at the convention
by MisfitMeL ini'm sure others have done similar topics and there might be many points that are repeated - i apologise!.
i allowed myself to be dragged by mum to the district convention which was a very bad idea... i have not been to a meeting in four years... so it's like staying clean for four years and then overdosing it for 3 days in a row (5 days if you count the total time spent staying with an elder's family!
) - bad reaction!
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garyneal
Blondie:
Sorry it took so long to respond. I am just now going back to some of the old threads that I posted on.
I remember that WT and I remember we were in a meeting when we went over it. When I told her about it, she was like "I can't believe of all the information that was presented, you chose to remember just that point!" The brother at the meeting elaborated by saying that in one incident, a 'Christian' woman who started studying the 'truth' was told by her non-believing husband that she could not go out that door referring to the front door. She instead, went out the back door. She was very respectful of her husband even though he would show great disrespect and he was eventually won over.
You're right, when I feel disrespected by my wife I see little point to think that her religion has anything to offer save for the rigid legalism that I used to encounter in the independent fundamental baptist churches. This wikipedia article on that denomination is very accurate based on my personal experience. If it is legalism based solely on the Bible, that is one thing. However, legalism that goes beyond the Bible (which tends to change frequently and contradicts itself often) is something I cannot tolerate.
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Addresses of Kingdom Halls
by Perry inwhy are kingdom hall addresses listed in the phone book many times a home address of an elder?
has anyone else noticed this?
it seems deceptive..
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garyneal
This could be for security reasons. Security for whom? Why not just set up a PO box for someone to go get the mail?
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75
Question for believers: How does God set priorities?
by sir82 inwhile waiting for the bus yesterday, i overheard (wasn't trying - but due to his volume, impossible to avoid) a guy on his cell phone talking to someone about his likely imminent dismissal from his employment.. but he then went on to say that he had full confidence that god would take care of him, and he wasn't worried at all about finding new employment.. then i got home, watched the news, and found out that 4 million kenyans are in danger of starving to death because of a year-long drought there.. so i got to thinking - how exactly does god set priorities?.
the guy at the bus stop is not the first christian i've heard express his confidence that god chooses to intervene and help in the lives of individual believers.
he saves them from car wrecks, he helps them find jobs, he lends some sort of invisible emotional support to help them cope with the death of a child, and so on.. on the other hand, millions of people suffer excruciating pain for months or years before finally dying covered in mud with flies crawling on them - no relief from god in sight.. why does god help one middle-aged guy who's never been hungry in his life find a new job in time so that he doesn't miss his $3000 mortgage payment, but not send a little rain to help a land where millions of people are already living in misery and filth?.
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garyneal
apologies to all - just realized this thread was for believers only - my mistake.
No need to apologize betsy, we're all entitled to our opinions and none of us know everything.