Posts by JAVA

57

Hello.

by gloria in

jw
friends

i'm not sure i'm putting this in the right place.

i'm even a little hesitant to do this but i have finally decided to try, for a while at least.

a lot of the comments that i have read seem somewhat harsh toward the witnesses.

JAVA

Gloria (we need to quit meeting like this),

Java, you keep comparing the truth with the Catholic religion. Surely having been an elder and all you can’t seriously compare one to the other. -gloria

You missed my point; I used the Catholic church because Witnesses meet many Catholics while going door-to-door. I'm not suggesting the Catholics and JWs are similar religions. I used the Catholics because their religion is different. That being said, the Catholic Church states they are the only true religion, and many Catholics believe that to be true. Of course JWs don't believe that, but that's not the point.

Catholics who believe they have the true religion can easily say what you said, "It makes sense that once we know what is true that there is no point in looking any further." Witnesses can see the flawed reasoning when others say these words, but fail to see the flaw when they do it. If using the Catholic religion to compare is problematic, use the Seventh-day Adventist or other religions, because the group doesn't change the argument. The point is when anyone says, "It makes sense that once we know what is true that there is no point in looking any further," they can't honestly examine their own house.

RedhorseWoman, SixofNine, and Prisca have already pointed out some excellent thoughts about the sources we use in our spiritual quest. Indeed, if Catholics only use information printed by the Catholic Church to examine their religion, what type of examination would that be?

--JAVA, a cup without coffee is like a room without windows

57

Hello.

by gloria in

jw
friends

i'm not sure i'm putting this in the right place.

i'm even a little hesitant to do this but i have finally decided to try, for a while at least.

a lot of the comments that i have read seem somewhat harsh toward the witnesses.

JAVA

Gloria,

JAVA, you said, "going to the next level suggests one is questioning "the Truth," a serious trap that could lead to disfellowshipping." That's sort of what I was told. It makes sense that once we know what is true that there is no point in looking any further. - gloria

The Catholic Church (and others, too) believes it is the true religion. Why would any Catholic examine their religion once they know they have the Truth? What is the "point in looking any further?" I'm sure you can see where I'm going with this, but it's important to see how an argument works if it's on the other foot. If an argument works on one foot but not the other, it's flawed.

Why does a religion need to intimidate followers with disfellowshipping for examining their religion? Why does a religion ask others to examine their religion, while pressuring its members to do otherwise? Truth does not need to use intimidation to prove it's "the Truth." Indeed, any religion claiming they have "the Truth" should welcome full examination, without intimidation. Truth has nothing to fear from honest examination.

Gloria, please don't be put off by the above questions. I don't expect you to answer or comment, unless you want. I'm just thinking out loud, and the above comments are some rambling thoughts. The nice thing about this group is you don't have to agree. It's a group that shares ideas, and you can pick and choose what works or doesn't work.

--JAVA, a cup without coffee is like a room without windows

Edited by - JAVA on 7 February 2001 14:53:41

140

NEW RELIGION! NEED INPUT!

by TR in

jw
friends

this is sort of a take-off of the "what should the wt do" thread.. i need to get together a board of directors and elect a president and officers.

we need to figure out a doctrine, a manifesto, and a set of disciplinary rules.

we need to figure out a way to fund our new movement.

JAVA

amicus,

You were slimed by the Old Tower Sock DEMON. The Department of DEMONS of our new religion picked this occurrence up before you sent the email. Our proton pack neutralize the protonic particles, but we used too much anti-slime, thus you were left without clothing. BTW, Simon already contacted us about using the proton pack at the baptism pool for our first assembly. I guess he's afraid of DEMONS, and doesn't want to take any chances.

--JAVA, a cup without coffee is like a room without windows

57

Hello.

by gloria in

jw
friends

i'm not sure i'm putting this in the right place.

i'm even a little hesitant to do this but i have finally decided to try, for a while at least.

a lot of the comments that i have read seem somewhat harsh toward the witnesses.

JAVA

Gloria,

They tell us that the priest had told them not to listen to us but we always try to reason with them that they have nothing to fear from an examination of the Bible. I always wondered why that never applied to us, as Jehovah’s Witnesses. I asked an elder this once and he told me that it’s because we have the truth and we don’t need to look anywhere else. What do you think about this? - gloria

That's the answer I would have given when I was an elder. However, it answers the question by avoiding the logic of the question. His answer is circular in that a Catholic priest (or any religionist) could say the same thing to members of the perish, church, etc. That answer discourages going to the next level of reasoning. It also puts pressure on the one asking the question because going to the next level suggests one is questioning "the Truth," a serious trap that could lead to disfellowshipping.

If we de-construct the elders answer to your question, it says: It's a logical question to ask when talking to folks at the door, however JWs should not use the same logic when scrutinizing their religion. That's not a rational answer!

--JAVA, a cup without coffee is like a room without windows

Edited by - JAVA on 6 February 2001 17:9:8

57

Hello.

by gloria in

jw
friends

i'm not sure i'm putting this in the right place.

i'm even a little hesitant to do this but i have finally decided to try, for a while at least.

a lot of the comments that i have read seem somewhat harsh toward the witnesses.

JAVA

Welcome Gloria,

I know what we, as Jehovah's Witnesses have been told about coming to such places on the internet but I just had to. - gloria

Thanks for joining in, and taking a big step by posting. Yes, the Society warns about reading information on the internet. Many Witnesses reach a point when they wonder why "the Truth" needs to fear information. Truth stands on its own merit. If a Catholic priest warned his parish not to read anything about their religion unless it's approved by Rome, what does that suggest? I think that's a fair question for any religion.

Nice having you here, and I hope you enjoy the conversation and coffee.

--JAVA, a cup without coffee is like a room without windows

140

NEW RELIGION! NEED INPUT!

by TR in

jw
friends

this is sort of a take-off of the "what should the wt do" thread.. i need to get together a board of directors and elect a president and officers.

we need to figure out a doctrine, a manifesto, and a set of disciplinary rules.

we need to figure out a way to fund our new movement.

JAVA

Your gray hair serves you well. You’re not only wise, you are brilliant!
The Holy Hole of WiseGuys! - amicus

My beloved spouse has another title for my so-called wisdom amicua, but this is a family channel, and I don't want to stumble larc and other weaker ones in our new religion. Speaking of new religion:

I've expressed concerns about DEMONS, and oversee the GhostBusters Department, but I now have another question. What will we do with members who run ahead of the new religion? For example, what will we do with brothers who run ahead of other brothers at the baptism pool? Like all religions, we need to set up controls because older brothers might be left behind at this important event.

All of this reminds me of a district assembly in the late 60s. It was at an outdoor stadium, and like most assemblies, restrooms for sisters were in short supply. In order to help, we had several dozen portable toilets brought in and placed in a field just past the north wall of the stadium. We turned most of the male restrooms inside the stadium into female restrooms. In order to let the men know where to go (not one word Zazu) we had an announcement made over the loudspeakers.

The idiot reading our announcement thought he could add clarity and added, "so the brothers can go over the north wall of the stadium." Needless to say, that was the highlight of the assembly.

--JAVA, a cup without coffee is like a room without windows

Edited by - JAVA on 5 February 2001 16:46:11

140

NEW RELIGION! NEED INPUT!

by TR in

jw
friends

this is sort of a take-off of the "what should the wt do" thread.. i need to get together a board of directors and elect a president and officers.

we need to figure out a doctrine, a manifesto, and a set of disciplinary rules.

we need to figure out a way to fund our new movement.

JAVA

amicus,

During that time my hair and beard grew very long and turned grey -which of course means that my conclusions are extremely wise.

As you can see from my picture, I've spent many hours in that cave, too. It was difficult to find, in that there are not many caves found on "very tall mountain(s)." I guess that's why it's called the Holy Hole of WiseGuys.

Larc visited the Holy Hole too, but computer screens can't handle that much grey.

--JAVA, a cup without coffee is like a cave without windows

Edited by - JAVA on 4 February 2001 9:55:38

31

hello

by Latte in

hi

JAVA

Latte,

What better way to spend the day at a coffe shop (Or wine bar I might add!)

Before we were married, my spouse lived in Columbus, Ohio. On the weekends I made the 160 mile round trip, and we spent many wonderful hours at Stauf's Coffee Shop. It's a place where graduate students, professors, lovers, etc would hang out reading, talking, and drinking coffee. I've been in love with my spouse and a good cup of coffee ever since.

As a side note, I collect antique coffee grinders. I have over 50 different grinders ranging in age from 250 to 40 years old. The history of coffee in the United States also shares something in common with the Watchtower location. Here's a quick history lesson:

Up until around 1859 a cup of coffee was available only to those who could afford green coffee beans, roast them, and grind the roasted beans. The green coffee beans were expensive, roasting was not a fine art, and coffee grinders (called coffee mills) were few in number. John Arbuckle was born in Allegheny, PA in 1839. John's elder brother had a wholesale grocery business in Pittsburgh, and in time both became owners of the Arbuckle Brothers.

John Arbuckle was the first to ship small 1-pound packets of roaster whole bean coffee around the states and colonies 1865. (This started a huge increase in coffee mill manufacturing in the states.) By 1873, those packages of coffee were marketed throughout the entire nation. By the middle of 1870's it was apparent business opportunities were greater in New York, and John Arbuckle established a company concentrated solely on coffee. That great company, Arbuckles' Ariosa Coffee, was located in Brooklyn, NY at the foot of Adams and Jay Streets. The company was in business until the depression of the 1930's. The Pittsburgh to Brooklyn history of coffee and the Watchtower in the United States is interesting. The Brooklyn location of Arbuckle Brothers and the Watchtower Society are nearly identical.

Anyway, "JAVA" was an easy pick for me when I joined this group.

--JAVA, a cup without coffee is like a room without windows

140

NEW RELIGION! NEED INPUT!

by TR in

jw
friends

this is sort of a take-off of the "what should the wt do" thread.. i need to get together a board of directors and elect a president and officers.

we need to figure out a doctrine, a manifesto, and a set of disciplinary rules.

we need to figure out a way to fund our new movement.

JAVA

What about the DEMONS? We all know they're everywhere and they like to hide in used stuff becasue they can't afford new stuff. Anyway, I'm concerned about DEMONS jumping into JW clothing the instant we leave the Kingdom Hall's safety zone.

Why just the other day I heard a frightening DEMON story. A Kingdom Hall building was sold to a church (false religion) when a congregation (true religion) moved to another location. Some brothers accidentally left coats and hats in one of the back rooms, and the minute the Kingdom Hall became a church, the DEMONS got right into those old coats and hats. I hear the church members had a devil of a time; finally nailing the door to that room shut to trap the DEMONS.

I don't want DEMONS following us into our new religion. I suggest taking old Kingdom Hall clothing to the nearest congregation, leaving the pile at the front door. When the next herd of swine goes by the Kingdom Hall, the DEMONS will exit the clothing and enter the pigs. That should drive the price of porkers down and help feed the brothers at the next assembly. What say you?

--JAVA, a cup without coffee is like a room without windows

Edited by - JAVA on 2 February 2001 15:55:37

32

Books

by larc in

jw
friends

a good book,.

i was wondering if any of you have read a book "visions of glory" by barbara grizzutti harrison.

as far as i know, it is the only book written by a woman about the witness experience.

JAVA

waiting,

During the 60's - Catholics came into the org. by the droves. I think they were searching - but did like many wives/children of alcoholics - go back to what they know. -- waiting

The 60s was an interesting period for many of us. The Vietnam War didn't make sense, yet the body count came in daily. It was the first time many in the United States realized our leaders would lie and cover up. Young people were in the streets protesting the war while burning draft cards, the flag, smoking pot, and questioning authority. The Catholic Church was also going through changes at this time when many needed comfort and tradition--not change and more questions.

You're right, many Catholics jumped ship in search of a religion with all the answers; easy prey for sects like the Watchtower. In time they realized the Witness security blanket was an empty promise. Many returned from whence they came after the 1975 failure. Perhaps they're the lucky ones, in that they had a place to land. I feel sorry for those who left still believing the Tower has "the Truth," but couldn't continue impersonating the happy little JW. Many of these remain stalled, and have a difficult time getting on with life while awaiting the rewards of Armageddon. How sad . . .

--JAVA, a cup without coffee is like a room without windows

Edited by - JAVA on 1 February 2001 15:43:53