Posts by JAVA

17

Another WOL "Gem"

by thinker in

jw
friends

first a quoted post from w.o.l.

why we sometimes adjust our beliefs .

when a watchman is posted on the watchtower, he must report all perceived approaching threats.

JAVA

TR,

Reverse psychology, it sounds like.

Yeah maybe, but I think it's more BS than anything else.

JAVA, working the Coffee Shop territory

32

Books

by larc in

jw
friends

a good book,.

i was wondering if any of you have read a book "visions of glory" by barbara grizzutti harrison.

as far as i know, it is the only book written by a woman about the witness experience.

JAVA

larc,

Now I have no idea what your next question is? Do JWs have higher or lower concerns about mental illnesses?

I don't understand why you couldn't understand a non-understandable question. I spent 20 years as a JW perfecting the art of saying nothing--looks like I've perfected the skill.

I want to know if you think the Witnesses have a higher rate of mental illness compared to other groups in the same population?

JAVA, working the Coffee Shop territory

Edited by - JAVA on 1 February 2001 15:52:0

32

Books

by larc in

jw
friends

a good book,.

i was wondering if any of you have read a book "visions of glory" by barbara grizzutti harrison.

as far as i know, it is the only book written by a woman about the witness experience.

JAVA

JWs appeal to the down trodden, the poor, the down hearted. Among these the JWs pick and choose.

Sounds like the way we treat immigrants entering the United States.

I'm sure folks with extreme schizophrenia don't find many welcome mats in the religious and secular community. This is not my field of study, but it's right down your gutter, so here's a question: Are there different degrees of schizophrenia, and if so, are some successfully treated with medication?

In general, I think you're right about the JWs appealing to the down trodden, poor, etc. Your comments seem to suggest the Witnesses might not have higher mental health concerns than the larger society. Do you think poverty can influence mental health, and if so, how does that fit into the JW profile?

JAVA, working the Coffee Shop territory

Edited by - JAVA on 31 January 2001 12:55:38

32

Books

by larc in

jw
friends

a good book,.

i was wondering if any of you have read a book "visions of glory" by barbara grizzutti harrison.

as far as i know, it is the only book written by a woman about the witness experience.

JAVA

larc,

The major psychoses of schizophrenia and bipolor disorder are geneticaly inherited and are a form of brain desease. You get it no matter where you live.

Bergman's research was his undoing in the academic field, as you pointed out. It's really a shame because he's a bright person with academic credentials to back him. I believe he made the mistake of allowing personal beliefs to direct his research and outcome. That ALWAYS produces sloppy results; a fatal blow in the eyes of the academic community. The last I heard Bergman has not been awarded tenured status in a university, which makes his research in the JW community tenuous at best. That's unfortunate, because he's a smart person who had a promising future.

Schizophrenia and bipolor disorders came up in a discussion with a group of hospital chaplains during lunch. One of them wondered if his denomination created these disorders because they seem to have more than their share in his church. For the reasons larc gave, most at the table discounted that notion quickly, but the topic continued with a different twist.

Are some denominations more likely to ATTRACT members with schizophrenia and bipolor disorders? If so, why? I don't know if this has been studied, and if not, it could easily be turned into a graduate thesis.

I believe folks with some mental disorders are attracted to some high-control denominations because things are more black and white for them. Perhaps their mental state of disorder seeks physical order. Maybe that's not the case; perhaps high-control groups are more needy for members, thereby attracting some who are less welcome in mainline denominations. Of course I can't prove any of this, but it could be an intriguing study. Anyone out there wanting to continue where Bergman left off?

JAVA, working the Coffee Shop territory

7

JW's & Child Sexual Abuse Reporting

by JAVA in

another interesting article in the news about jw's not reporting child abuse: .

from the front page of the paducah sun in paduach ky, jan 28th 2001. .

"jehovah's witnesses' handling of child sexual abuse criticized".

JAVA

waiting,

Thanks for taking a look and highlighting the important sections of the article.

JAVA, working the Coffee Shop territory without a watch

47

JW Dictionary

by thinker in

jw
friends

warning !.

the following "dictionary" may be very discomforting to true believers of jehovah's organization.

if you ask too many questions about these things you are told " jehovah will make it all clear in time.

JAVA

larc,

I thought I would resurrect this thread with my miracle cyber-powers, for the new ones who missed it.

Thanks for the miracle larc; I now know you have great power, except answering your phone when you're on the Net seems to be a challenge lately. I missed this thread the first time around, and it's a great read.

So, hard to get them in. So easy for them to go out.

Thinker, I hope "thinker's wife" doesn't read the latest contribution on this quote from you.

"Couch" -- A place where thinker sleeps tonight.

JAVA, working the Coffee Shop territory without a watch

17

Another WOL "Gem"

by thinker in

jw
friends

first a quoted post from w.o.l.

why we sometimes adjust our beliefs .

when a watchman is posted on the watchtower, he must report all perceived approaching threats.

JAVA

Time and time again the watchman wakes the inhabitants with shouts of "The world is coming to an end !!!" And nothing ever happens.

thinker, thinker, thinker; there you go thinking again. When will you ever learn Jehovah gave the thinking-license to the Watchtower Society? Here's how it really works:

Everyone knows the Watchtower Society has failed in all their ends-time predictions; this fact alone makes them the true religion. You see, Jehovah is a Zen Master and He teaches by not teaching. We see by not seeing. The light of truth is found in its darkness. In 1914 the Great Zen Master found one religion always getting it wrong, thus the Watchtower Society has the license on "the Truth" until they get something right. If history repeats itself, that might never happen, thus truth remains the same.

Glad I could help by not helping, and remember, by leaving I am here for you.

JAVA, working the Coffee Shop territory without a watch.

Edited by - JAVA on 30 January 2001 10:48:9

7

JW's & Child Sexual Abuse Reporting

by JAVA in

another interesting article in the news about jw's not reporting child abuse: .

from the front page of the paducah sun in paduach ky, jan 28th 2001. .

"jehovah's witnesses' handling of child sexual abuse criticized".

JAVA

Another interesting article in the news about JW's not reporting child abuse:

From the front page of the Paducah Sun in Paduach KY, Jan 28th 2001

"Jehovah's Witnesses' handling of child sexual abuse criticized"
The cases aren't reported by police, and elders may allow violators to
remain, critics say.

By C.D. Bradley [email protected] (270)575-8650

Carl and Barbara Pandelo, as devout Jehovah's Witnesses, did what they
thought was right when their 12-year-old daughter came to them and told
them her grandfather had molested her: They went to the elders of the
church. Thirteen years later, they are no longer Witnesses, their case
remains in court, and Carl Pandelo now believes "that organization is as
corrupt as any other."

Mario Moreno, associate general counsel at the church's New York
headquarters, said when church policy is applied to child molesters, "as a
parent, an attorney and an elder, I'm comfortable with our policy."

William Bowen, 43, of Marshall County was raised a Witness and served as
an elder in his Draffenville congregation for nearly two decades, along
with service throughout the region and the country for the church, also
known as the Watchtower Society. Last month, Bowen resigned his leadership
position in the church because of a policy he claims "has harmed
thousands, is leaving many unprotected, and provides refuge to outright
criminals."

Since Bowen's resignation, the Sun has been contacted by several current
and former Witnesses with concerns about the church's policy regarding
child molesters, or who say they themselves have been victims. Moreno said
while he believes in the church's policy, he knows that some members have
been hurt, and "my heart goes out to them." But he said that some elders
don't follow the policy as they should, and that's where trouble begins.

Carl Pandelo, of Hackensack, N.J., was naturally shocked when his daughter
came to him and his wife in 1988 and told them she had been molested by
his father. What he would later find would shock him even more. At the
time, Pandelo's daughter told her parents that her grandfather, Clement,
had molested her once. They took the matter to the elders, who in turn
questioned Clement, and he confessed. The elders advised him to turn
himself in, which he did. He was removed from the fellowship shortly
thereafter.

The elders also advised Carl and his wife not to pursue prosecution but to
settle for a plea bargain because going to court would only worsen the
girl's mental state. They agreed, and in 1989 Clement Pandelo was ordered
to undergo counseling and given five years probation, according to court
documents.

"We thought we would never have to see him again," Barbara Pandelo
remembers. "But we saw him the next day at Kingdom Hall."

"He continued going and sitting right behind us like nothing was wrong,"
Carl Pandelo added. Clement Pandelo was reinstated as a member 18 months
later. To do so, he had to show repentance and admit his wrongdoing, as
well as being judged by the elders to be ready to be accepted back into
the congregation.

By that time, the Pandelos had their daughter in therapy. "The wall of
denial and secrecy began to come down," Carl Pandelo said. "When she began
talking about the extent of the abuse, it became clear he had been
molesting her every time she was in her grandparents' care since she was a
couple of years old."

Barbara Pandelo said one of the first things the therapist asked was what
Clement had admitted to the prosecutor. The Pandelos hadn't been aware
they were privy to that information, but they soon obtained it.
When he turned himself in, Clement Pandelo told a prosecutor's
investigator that he had molested Carl and Barbara's daughter as well as
their niece, according to a transcript of the interview. He also admitted
that he had been fondling young girls for four decades. Investigators'
reports note that he was investigated in 1986 for fondling his female
teen-age neighbor, but her mother declined to press charges.

The Pandelos requested information from the elders about their
investigation, but were refused. "We were told, 'That's all
confidential,'" Barbara Pandelo said. Other people began to come forward,
and Clement Pandelo was dropped from the fellowship a second time in 1994.
The Pandelos filed a lawsuit against Clement, seeking compensation for the
therapy, for which Carl and Barbara had been paying. Clement filed a
countersuit, later dismissed, charging that they had been at fault because
they had let their daughter come to his house. While the suit was still
being litigated, Clement was again reinstated in the church in 1996.

"He has the freedom to go door to door and minister," Carl Pandelo said,
referring to the faith's practice of public ministry. During a deposition
in the civil lawsuit, Anthony Valenti, an elder in the Pandelos'
congregation, said he had discouraged them from pursuing the investigation
against Carl's father based on a scriptural encouragement against taking another
brother to court, according to a transcript of the deposition.

During the course of the civil case, several Witnesses claimed that
Clement Pandelo had molested them as well, and they waived ecclesiastical
privilege so the elders could testify to what they had been told, Carl
Pandelo said. The elders, citing ecclesiastical privilege, refused to
testify.

In December 1999, the civil case was decided against Clement Pandelo, and
his son and daughter-in-law were awarded nearly $1.8 million, plus
$500,000 in punitive damages. Clement's wife, Olga Pandelo, was dismissed
from the suit, and with her went the insurance company that would have
been able to pay the decision. Carl and Barbara are arguing on appeal that
the Witnesses' elders cannot claim ecclesiastical privilege because they
are volunteer, thus unpaid, clergy. They are also trying to have Olga
Pandelo reinstated. A hearing is scheduled Feb. 26 in New Jersey Appellate
Court.

"They're harboring criminals at the risk of families in the neighborhood,"
Barbara Pandelo said of the church.

Moreno said when a Witness goes to an elder with an accusation of abuse,
the first step the elders should take is calling the church's legal
department. He said there are then three factors considered: protecting
the child, complying with the law, and protecting minister-adherent
confidentiality, with the last receiving the least weight.
The legal department will then advise the elders what is required by law.
Twenty-two states, including Illinois and the District of Columbia, do not
require clergy to report accusations of child abuse. In those states,
Moreno said, the legal department generally advises the elders not to
report the matter to law enforcement authorities.
J.R. Brown, public affairs director for the church, said the reason for
this is "we do not think, as an ecclesiastical authority, we should run
ahead of Caesar's laws," using a biblical reference to secular authority.
"Even if secular authority does not require it, generally we have
endeavoured to be more zealous for enforcing and seeing that these laws
are complied with. If Caesar has a law, and it does not conflict with
God's law, we follow it."

Brown said the church does not necessarily equate reporting the matter to
law enforcement to protecting the child because "not all the time does
government authority provide the protection the child needs. We don't say
automatically that, but unfortunately too many reports show that's the
case.

You can be sure they're going to take what action is necessary to see that
the child is protected." Both Brown and Moreno said that the elders, who
volunteer and are essentially untrained clergy, might err in their
application of a policy both believe puts protecting children first.

"It's a matter of trying to balance confidentiality and protecting the
child," Brown said. "It's not always easy. Have mistakes been made? Very
likely, they have. We're trying to see that everyone is educated to what
needs to be done to see that innocent children are not victimized."

Moreno agrees with Bowen's claim that no investigation is initiated in the
church if there is only one witness and the accused denies the charge, but
he said elders have the responsibility to watch the accused more closely.
He added that elders sometimes advise the accused to not put himself or
herself in suspicious situations. He also said that when members are
disfellowshipped, the congregation is told but no reason is given in order to
protect confidentiality. When asked if the parents of the victim would be
allowed to tell fellow congregates why a member is disfellowshipped, Moreno
replied, "That would be their choice. We don't tell them that, but it would be
their choice. Is that encouraged? No."

He agreed with Bowen's charge that a congregation would also not be told
if a pedophile had joined the flock. But he said because of the church's
structure, the fact that such a member, if male, who would have fewer
rights in the congregation, would not be serving in a leadership role
would alert members that "he obviously lacks spiritual maturity."

Moreno said he believes that while some of the church's critics on this
topic have legitimate concerns, most "have a problem with pride" and "want
the organization to change for them. We go by what we believe the Bible
says, and we don't change for anybody." He also said he feels the church
is "being picked on" and added that he would be willing to put the
church's policy up against any other. The church's critics believe that it
is the church, not children, that the policy is designed to protect. Mike
Terry, a therapist and a former elder in Arkansas, said there are many
parallels between sexual abuse and spiritual abuse. He said he had seen a
disproportionately large number of abusers and abused Witnesses for years
in his work, which has centered on treating sex offenders. Bob Smith, a former
elder in the Northeast, said part of the problem is that the victims, usually
female, have to go before three elders, always male.

"It's a repetition of the same sort of abuse," he said. Smith said both
his wife and daughter remain Witnesses, which is why he asked that his
hometown not be disclosed.

"I try to appreciate the fact that my wife likes that comfort" that comes
from the faith, he said. "She respects that I've made some changes. We
talk about it, and she, like many other Witnesses, quietly questions some
of it. But when someone asks questions like that, they always say, 'Where
else is there to go?'"

Steve Hassan, who operates the Resource Center For Freedom of Mind and is
an author who has written several books on mind control and cultlike
organizations, said he has seen several patients who were former Witnesses
who had been abused "who tried to speak out and were disfellowshipped." He
said the Witnesses controlled the flow of information to their members by
demanding that members not read or view anything that disagrees with the
teachings of the church.

When the church allows its members to view such information without the
fear of punishment, "they'll start looking less like a destructive cult
and more like a benign denomination. Judaism and Christianity are based on
free will."

He said that when speaking to former Witnesses, he will describe the
factors at play in a cult organization, and they will invariably reply,
'That's the Watchtower.'"

End of article

JAVA, counting time at the Coffee Shop

Edited by - JAVA on 30 January 2001 8:24:46

31

hello

by Latte in

hi

JAVA

Hi Latte--Great name, I can tell you've got class!

I picked java because I really love the stuff, and as everyone on the group will tell you, it's the ONLY vice I have. However, you need to look out for two members who go by larc, and waiting. Otherwise, it's a great group of folks here. It's nice meeting you, and pour another cup . . .

JAVA, counting time at the Coffee Shop

39

Spy vs. Spy

by TR in

jw
friends

prisca's comments about wol made me wonder about official wts sanctioned spies and moles.

we all know for a fact that to the wts lies are ok, and spying does happen.

does anyone know of officially appointed wts spies, or do hard-core militant and/or plain old sneaky jw's just feel it is their duty?

JAVA

I just clicked on this topic, and see that mug shots are being discussed. It's a shame the world has a few idiots who manage to get on-line when they're not playing with themselves. Even the lowest common dominators surface on the Web, thus showing the missing link has been found. The poor things crave attention by being jerks because it's the highest level they've obtained after crawing from the swamp. What do you do with this subspecies?

We can ignore them, get mad at them, be afraid of them, alter our lives because of them, try protecting ourselves from them, etc. Each person decides how they'll handle this species, not because one method is better than another, but because that's what works for us at that time. I'm sorry Wendy and others were impacted by the jerk who broke into the group. I'm sorry Wendy's picture is missing from her posts, because I appreciate seeing people I'm talking with or who talk to me. For me, it adds a touch of realness to the cyber community.

Trevor, sorry the coffee cup is missing from my profile. The fuzzy mug shot is there for the same reasons listed above. I'm a 54-year old fossil who's not out to entice women, men or missing links who occasionally slither into cyber groups. After years of not liking myself as a JW, I like the person I've discovered a little late in life (mug shot, gray hair, beard and all).

JAVA, counting time at the Coffee Shop