Posts by JAVA

12

JW Child Labor--Prince v. Massachusetts

by JAVA in

jw
friends

while doing some research, i came across a united states supreme court case the society lost in 1944 on the topic of child labor.

the two paragraphs below are from, odd gods, new religions & the cult controversy, edited by james r. lewis, prometheus books, new york, 2001, pp.

78-9.. "one of the earliest cases involving children in a religious setting was prince v. massachusetts (1944).

JAVA

Obviously this 1944 USA Supreme Court ruling is not being followed today. However, it was an important case the Society lost, and I'm sure the impact was felt for some time thereafter. It's a ruling most JWs and ex-JWs are not aware of today, and I'm certain the Society wishes to keep it that way.

I don't know when the 1944 ruling was challenged, if it ever was. The Society uses any loophole possible if profits from required door-to-door selling is at risk. Offering literature for a suggested "contribution" is the latest scheme to avoid paying taxes from the millions made each month using indentured servants (adults and children alike). The 1944 ruling must have been a bitter blow to the Society, on top of everything else that was going on during the Second World War.

12

JW Child Labor--Prince v. Massachusetts

by JAVA in

jw
friends

while doing some research, i came across a united states supreme court case the society lost in 1944 on the topic of child labor.

the two paragraphs below are from, odd gods, new religions & the cult controversy, edited by james r. lewis, prometheus books, new york, 2001, pp.

78-9.. "one of the earliest cases involving children in a religious setting was prince v. massachusetts (1944).

JAVA

While doing some research, I came across a United States Supreme Court case the Society lost in 1944 on the topic of child labor. The two paragraphs below are from, Odd Gods, New Religions & the Cult Controversy, edited by James R. Lewis, Prometheus Books, New York, 2001, pp. 78-9.

"One of the earliest cases involving children in a religious setting was Prince v. Massachusetts (1944). Ms. Prince, a Jehovah's Witness, was the custodian of her nine-year-old niece. She was convicted of violating state child-labor laws for taking her niece with her to sell religious literature. The United States Supreme Court upheld her conviction. It stated that 'the family itself is not beyond regulation in the public interest, as against a claim of religious liberty. . . . [N]either rights of religion nor rights of parenthood are beyond limitation.'

The state has an interest in protecting juveniles under its traditional role as parens patriae (literally, 'parent of the country,' referring to the state's sovereign role as guardian of persons under legal disability). The state's interest is in restricting any conduct that is harmful to the child. 'The state has a wide range of power for limiting parental freedom and authority in things affecting the child's welfare; . . . this includes, to some extent, matter of conscience and religious conviction.' The court indicated that parents could become martyrs if they wanted to, but they did not have the right to make martyrs of their children and subject them to emotional, psychological, or physical injury. The court left no doubt that if a judge perceives that a religious practice or religious belief may be harmful to a child, the court can and will restrict the religious conduct."

12

Awake! 1/8/02 issue

by JAVA in

jw
friends

i picked up the 1/8/02 issue of the awake!

in the waiting area while my car was being serviced yesterday.

when i see harmful literature in places like that, i follow the society's instructions and i hurl them in the trash.

JAVA

mikelites,

No, I don't have hard facts about the Tower locking the doors. Several folks in this forum posted that information from some of the workers at Bethel. Perhaps some of them will post information on this thread.

ISP,

You raise an interesting thought, but I understand the Society locked the doors to keep people who needed help or shelter out of their buildings. Have we ever seen large groups of Witnesses doing anything to assist a community in need? True, some individuals will, like Jeff's grandfather, but that's not what large groups of Witnesses do.

Patriot,

I've been out of the Tower for many years, but from the 60s to the mid 80s, I didn't know one Witness who was a firefighter in the Dayton, Ohio area. However, others have pointed out how things have changed, at least in some areas. Firefighters have long shifts (e.g., 12 to 24 hours) at a time. Because of scheduling, it seems some KH meetings would be missed. That would have created problems for a JW when I was POW.

Cygnus,

You're right, during the 9/11 attack most didn't know what was going on or who was behind it. However, as we saw in the news, most New Yorkers helped in any way they could. One might expect God's Organization to take the lead in being the Good Samaritan, so others could identify them by their works. Fear-based religions sell fear, not assistance when others need it. Most New Yorkers showed compassion; the Society showed fear, if the reports about the lock down are true.

12

Awake! 1/8/02 issue

by JAVA in

jw
friends

i picked up the 1/8/02 issue of the awake!

in the waiting area while my car was being serviced yesterday.

when i see harmful literature in places like that, i follow the society's instructions and i hurl them in the trash.

JAVA

I picked up the 1/8/02 issue of the Awake! in the waiting area while my car was being serviced yesterday. When I see harmful literature in places like that, I follow the Society's instructions and I hurl them in the trash. However, this issue caught my eye because it's entitled: "Courage in the Face of Disaster--The Day the Twin Towers Collapsed."

I wonder if the readers know what the Watchtower Society did shortly after the Twin Towers collapsed? It's been reported they locked down the Brooklyn factory in order to keep people out! I'm gratified many New Yorkers showed "courage" during and after the terrorist attack on helpless people. The Watchtower Society showed no "courage," but instead a calloused disregard for others during a time of need.

I guess one can't expect more from an organization praying for the murder of 6 billion people. While some JW firefighters became heroes in this event, the Watchtower Society demonstrates that cowards have no compunction in their actions.

4

Thinking about....UU

by wonderwoman77 in

jw
friends

well all, i have done a lot of investigating in the last week about the uu and i am liking what i find.

i have talked to a member of one of the churches in my area and they have a class in january for new and prespective memebers.

it is a four week class where you discuss your religious journey to this point, learn about the churches history, learn about how the church in involved in the community and then the last one you can sign to be a member if you wish.

JAVA

wonderwoman77,

The UU church is a good place to land if one is seeking, but doesn't need another dogma. I know several former JWs who attend UU services, and enjoy the fellowship. Best to you, and Happy New Year!

"Seeing the Light"

by JAVA in

jw
friends

an interesting book will be published in march 2002 titled, this dark world: a memoir of salvation found and lost, written by carolyn briggs.

salon.com has a short article by briggs, called "seeing the light," http://salon.com/mwt/feature/2001/12/21/fundamentalist/index.html here is a paragraph from the article:.

"i would not have killed anyone in the name of god, but beyond that important distinction between me and some fundamentalist extremists, i see very little difference.

JAVA

An interesting book will be published in March 2002 titled, This Dark World: A Memoir of Salvation Found and Lost, written by Carolyn Briggs. Salon.com has a short article by Briggs, called "Seeing the light," http://salon.com/mwt/feature/2001/12/21/fundamentalist/index.html Here is a paragraph from the article:

"I would not have killed anyone in the name of God, but beyond that important distinction between me and some fundamentalist extremists, I see very little difference. I feared and suspected those who believed in a God who was not my God. I knew I had the answer of the universe. I knew I was right about the path to God. And for years, I didn't doubt it, not for a minute. I didn't waver in the face of others who embraced another religion as fiercely as I. They were mistaken. They had been deceived by their own desires, their prejudice, their allegiance to the Father of Lies, Satan himself."

I thought some might find the Salon.com link worth reading, and I'm looking forward to the book when it comes out in March.

21

Full time service among ex JWs

by joelbear in

jw
friends

it seems that a disproportionate percentage of us were involved in the fulltime service at some point.. does this have something to do with us being exes?.

take care.

joel (7 months bethelite, 2 years pioneer)

JAVA

RR,

It's nice seeing you, too. Are you still hanging around with the Bible Students? How are things going in Brooklyn (I believe that's where you live, isn't it)? I don't post much, but it's nice staying in touch.

21

Full time service among ex JWs

by joelbear in

jw
friends

it seems that a disproportionate percentage of us were involved in the fulltime service at some point.. does this have something to do with us being exes?.

take care.

joel (7 months bethelite, 2 years pioneer)

JAVA

Richard,

Service is now not preaching, but putting in time; most publishers do a token number of doors with shoddy presentations. About half or more of the morning is spent at coffee break. Most count the time, including elders.

Seeing the Witnesses going door-to-door is like watching a slow-motion movie. It's not possible to walk slower, or dawdle longer at "not at homes" than JWs doing time. You're right about coffee breaks, too. You'll find more JWs counting time at Donut Shops on Saturday than sleeping at Kingdom Halls on Sunday.

105

An Internet Apostate

by Yadirf in

jw
friends

an internet "apostate" is a person who delights in sowing discord on the internet.

s/he tries to start arguments and upset people.. apostates see internet communications services as convenient venues for their bizarre game.

for some reason, they don't "get" that they are hurting real people.

JAVA

Unlike Friday, Ginny doesn't need to steal the words of others to pass off as her own; she is gifted and a wordsmith. Friday got caught stealing and using red herrings to worm out of being discovered. Indeed, Friday has become one with the Tower!

3

Myths to Live By

by Will Power in

jw
friends

has anyone read this book "myths to live by" or any others by joseph campbell?.

myths and legends are found in every culture of every time period including a creation story, a fall, heros, devils, good/evil battles, flood, virgin birth, savior, resurrection, second comings, judgements, eternal bliss - amazing.

myth, legend, ritual all have their place as a temporary answer that binds individuals to their local group but long gone is the time when one group should claim "exclusivity" to these stories.. the historical references, hindu, buddist, native american, et al and even christian, if they have any meaning at all, must be secondary for in times gone by where the "social unit" was the tribe, the religious sect, a nation, or even a civilization, it was possible for the local myths that serviced to represent all those beyond its territory as inferior - their human heritage of imagery was true and sanctified or at least supreme.

JAVA

I read (several years ago), and have a copy of The Power of Myth by Cambell. It helped me see the value of myths, and the roles they play in religion and societal groups. It also helped me debunk the religious holiness ascribed to myths. Religions and myths are fascinating until one takes them seriously.