Posts by Larsinger58

34

My understanding of the "70 Years" and the "Babylonian Exile" (without chronology)

by Doug Mason in

in my view, there needs to be a very clear decoupling of the destruction wrought on jerusalem/judah from the 70 years of servitude/babylonian domination.. .

the destruction was the outcome of the people failing over many centuries to obey god, and it was a conditional prophecy, the outcome of which depended on the people's response.. .

however, the servitude to babylon, experienced by several countries, was an unconditional prophecy.

Larsinger58

ALWAYSHERE:

Sorry. I hadn't gotten down to your comment yet:

Guess you do not know when Neb. first year to rule is.

The answer is what timeline you use, you'll get different dates, frankly.

For instance the popular chronology which is based on the post-revisions during the Persian Period date the 1st of Nebuchadnezzar to 604 BCE, but this is a 26-year shorter NB Period than represented by Josephus.

That is, when year 18 falls in 587 BCE, 17 years earlier is 604 BCE.

JWs date year 18 to 607 BCE, so 17 years earlier is 624 BCE.

I combine Martin Anstey with Josephus to create the Anstey-Josephus timeline. Anstey dates the 1st of Cyrus to [sic] 455 BCE and Josephus adds 70 years back to year 23 of Nebuchadnezzar in 525 BCE. 22 + 525 = 547 BCE for the 1st of Nebuchadnezzar per that dating.

If you use 1947 to date the return from Babylon in 455 BCE, you get 547 BCE as well.

Martin Anstey based his chronology on the idea that Cyrus fulfilled the 70 weeks prophecy. I go along with that dating because of the jubilee series for the Jews where the 70th jubilee begins in 1947 which is the 50th from the retrun from Babylon. That is, add 49 years to 1947 to get the end of the 50th jubilee from the return in 1996. 490 years is 10 jubilees, so 50 jubilees is 5x490 = 2450.

2450 minus 1996 is 454 + 1 = 455 BCE. So I consider 455 BCE as a more reliable date for the 1st of Cyrus than 537 BCE.

Or, you can use the KTU 1.78 astronomical text which dates the Exodus to 1386 BCE, which is 19 jubilees from the return from Babylon.

19 x 49 = 931. 1386 - 931 = 455 BCE.

See how all the major exile ending events or release from bondage events align with the jubilees? The Exodus in 1386 BCE, a date confirmed by astronomical text, plus the return in 1947 force us to date the return from Babylon to 455 BCE.

Incidentally, the covenant was to remain in place for one week and thus gentiles were not preached to until after 36 CE. So 36 CE, a jubilee year, is a year when there was freedom from the Law Code. Since there is so much debate and confusion over the Babylonian Period and since the records supporting it come from later times, like the Babylonian Chronicle from the 22nd year of Darius II, it's just easier to try to independently establish the best Biblically accurate timeline as possible, which is using the jubilee cycles based on 1947 and the Exodus in 1386 BCE, which are well confirmed by astronomy as well as archaeology. The fact that Josephus represents a 26-year longer NB Period tells you right there you'll never harmonize the Bible's timeline with that of the current NB records, but you don't have to because the only records we have come from the Persian Period, not the NB Period (the main historical records, that is, i.e. Nabonidus Chronicle, Babylonian Chronicle, and Cyrus Cylinder.)

So actually you have lots of choices. My choice is 547 BCE.

YOU SAID: Hi LARSINGER, I knew you couldn't answer my question because you do not know what you are talking about.

ROLF!! Well... Sorry I was late. I hope your question was answered.

In case you missed it, the critical dating for the 1st of Nebuchadnezzar II is 547 BCE. The fall of Babylon is 562 BCE, the 1st of Cyrus is 455 BCE. The Exodus is 1386 BCE. The 69th jubilee from the Exodus and the 50th from 455 BCE is 1947 AD.

LS

34

My understanding of the "70 Years" and the "Babylonian Exile" (without chronology)

by Doug Mason in

in my view, there needs to be a very clear decoupling of the destruction wrought on jerusalem/judah from the 70 years of servitude/babylonian domination.. .

the destruction was the outcome of the people failing over many centuries to obey god, and it was a conditional prophecy, the outcome of which depended on the people's response.. .

however, the servitude to babylon, experienced by several countries, was an unconditional prophecy.

Larsinger58

Hi Jonathan:

You stated:

This is not an all-encompassing list of the kings of Babylon which the nations served seventy years. Even 607 defenders in Setting the Record Straight are of the same view:

In fulfillment of Jeremiah 27:7, the exiled Jews did in fact literally serve Nebuchadnezzar’s son (Evilmerodach) and Nebuchadnezzar’s grandson (co-regent Belshazzer, whose mother was reportedly Nebuchadnezzar’s daughter, Nitocris). However, the captive Jews also served other kings of Babylon, including Neriglissar, Labashi-Marduk and Nabonidus, none of whom bore any blood relation to Nebuchadnezzar. Thus,the words at Jeremiah 27:7, though indisputably true, were obviously not meant to be an all-encompassing list of rulers whom the Jews would serve during the seventy years.

Just as a note,

Neriglissar was the SON-IN-LAW of Nebuchadnezzar II.

Labashi-Marduk was the son of Neriglissar and thus the grandson of Nebuchadnezzar II.

Nabonidus was the SON-IN-LAW of Nebuchadnezzar II.

Darius the Mede was the grandson of Nebuchadnezzar II.

Ewel-Merodach was the son of Nebuchadnezzar II.

Now we know the term "son" is used generally in the Bible as descendant and includes grandson. We know that because Nebuchadnezzar II is called the father of Belshazzar even in the Bible at Daniel 5:11, 18, 22.

But son-in-laws are also considered sons as in the case of "Cainan" in the genealogy of Jesus being introduced between Arpachshad and Shelah. That is some genealogies say that Arpachshad was the father of Shelah and Luke 3:36 says "Cainan" was the father of Shelah. This is not a contradiction but reflects the reluctance of Jews using women in their genealogies. Most of the times they just skip the generation when it is through the mother, or sometimes to be comprehensive to confirm a "son" is actually a grandson, as in the case of Arpachshad and Shelah, they interject the intervening generation, only they use the daughter's name but the name of her husband, the son-in-law.

So your theory that any of these kings were in some way not related to Nebuchadnezzar II or not his "son" in some way or another in no way contradicts a comprehensive interpretation that the Jews were always in servitude to one son or another of Nebuchadnezzar II down until Cyrus came to the rule, and that includes Darius the Mede who ruled for six years.

Thanks again, this has been fun, but I'm literally afraid to read your document further there is so much wrong with it!!

LS

34

My understanding of the "70 Years" and the "Babylonian Exile" (without chronology)

by Doug Mason in

in my view, there needs to be a very clear decoupling of the destruction wrought on jerusalem/judah from the 70 years of servitude/babylonian domination.. .

the destruction was the outcome of the people failing over many centuries to obey god, and it was a conditional prophecy, the outcome of which depended on the people's response.. .

however, the servitude to babylon, experienced by several countries, was an unconditional prophecy.

Larsinger58

Hi Jonathan:

You posted:

F. The servitude referred to at Jeremiah 25:11 whereby the nations which fell under the domination of the Babylonian Empire would serve the king of Babylon seventy years included a) vassalage, b) willing exile, and/or c) forced captivity and exile.

Josephus at Ant. 11.1.1 says:

IN the first year of the reign of Cyrus which was the seventieth from the day that our people were removed out of their own land into Babylon, God commiserated the captivity and calamity of these poor people, according as he had foretold to them by Jeremiah the prophet, before the destruction of the city, that after they had served Nebuchadnezzar and his posterity, and after they had undergone that servitude seventy years, he would restore them again to the land of their fathers, and they should build their temple, and enjoy their ancient prosperity.

Please note:

1. Josephus specifically mentions Jeremiah's prohecy.

2. Josephus specifically mentions "servitude" of a specific people.

3. The specific people in servitude 70 years are the "poor people" who were last "removed out of their own land." Remember after Jerusalem fell the "poor people" and lowly people were left in the land to continue crops. Then they ended up killing Gedaliah the next year and ran down to Egypt. YHWH tried through Jeremiah to get them to return and they refused so God promised he'd send a sword via Nebuchadnezzar to kill them. A few "remaining from the sword" were to return to Judea (Jer. 44:14,28). So it is clear who Josephus is referring to and when. This is the last deportation off the land of those poor left remaining who had ran down to Egypt and now returned.

So we have YOUR interpretation of the prophecy of Jeremiah's 70 years and we have the Jewish historical version of who fulfilled Jeremiah's prohpecy by Josehus.

NEXT STEP PROCESS: Now please note, that if Josephus is interjecting 70 years from the last deportation to the 1st of Cyrus, that there is a 25-26 year discrepancy between Josephus and the Neo-Babylonian Period! Using the current timeline, if year 18 falls in 587 BCE, year 23 falls in 582. 582 to 538 is 44 years. 70 minus 44 is 26. So the NB Period per Josephus is 26 years longer than the current Babylonian records.

So what does this mean? It means that either Josephus or the secular records were revised. Both can't be correct.

NEXT STEP: So what we do next is look at the actual documentation from the Babylonian records to see how credible they may be. When we do we get an early WUPS!! Huh? Right. The Babylonian Chronicle notes itself that it is a "copy" made in year 22 of Darius. End of story. What do we know from this? We know "copy" is synonymous with revision so we presume the Persians revised the Babylonian record. This is not an original record. So the Persians removed 26 years from the NB Period. That wasn't hard to discover.

Having confirmed this, however, we know all the dates being used are likely phony, including 539 BCE.

NEXT STEP: With this much potential confusion, we now abandon the secular timeline entirely as unreliable and try to establish an ABSOLUTE Biblical chronology somehow. The 70-year interval from year 23 to the 1st of Cyrus is RELATIVE chronology. It still doesn't give us the absolute years involved.

The most direct reference is based on Jesus appearing in 29 CE which begins the 70th week of a period beginning in 455 BCE. The context of this prophecy, which is when the "word goes forth to rebuild Jerusalem" is first applicable to the 1st of Cyrus in 455 BCE. We can test this dating against whatever other ABSOLUTE chronology we have in place. When we do it checks out. For example.

1. 1947 begins the 70th jubilee, which also is the 50th jubilee from the return from Babylon. That is, 490 years is 10 jubilees of 49 years each. The final jubilee of 49 years begins in 1947 and ends in 1996. To be the 50th jubilee from the return from Babylon, you need five periods of 490 years each, which is 2450 years.

50 x 49 is 2450.

2450 minus 1996 is 454 + 1 = 455 BCE.

So the Bible's own internal chronology confirms that the return from Babyon occurs in 455 BCE. So we done.

OR, you can use an astronomical text.

2. The KTU 1.78 astrotext dates year 12 of Akhenaten via a solar eclipse occurring in 1375 BCE. At least that is when NASA dates that eclipse last time I checked, not that NASA has the final word on everything. Per the Bible Akhenaten was the pharaoh that ruled immediately after the ten plagues. Thus we can date the Exodus via this astronomical text to 1386 BCE. 1947-1996 is the 69th jubilee from the Exodus, but represents the 70the jubilee period of the entire week of jubilees.

That is a Week is seven days, with each day being 490 years long. Each 490 years is 10 jubilees of 49 years each.

490 x 7 = 3430

49 x 70 = 3430

So in the entire period of 3430 years, from 1435 BCE to 1996 AD, the Exodus is the first jubilee event falling in the 50th year after this week begins, thus 49 years after 1435 BCE.

1435 - 49 is 1386 BCE, the same date for the Exodus and the 1st of Akhenaten confirmed by astronomical text.

So we're on. We can independently establish the timeline back to the Exodus in 1386 BCE, skipping over all the problems and contradictions and discussions about the confusing Babylonian records.

Now here is where JWs are again on the right track. If any astronoimcal texts supporting the current Neo-Babylonian period are "copies" like the Babylonian Chronicle from a later period, particularly later than year 22 of Darius II, then they can't be used to date anything. Any copy is automatically presumed to be a revised text. Anybody can copy astronomical information and then apply a new historical king to the text as the WTS has pointed out, as in the case of the VAT4956, which is wholly dismissible and fraudulent on its face.

Ironically, the WTS has the audacity to introduce the SK400 (Strm. Kambyses 400) as proof of the 537 BCE chronology for the return of the Jews. But the SK400 was "copied" after the VAT4956 and is just as dismissible. So in this case COJ is correct. He notes that it doesn't make sense that the WTS dismisses the VAT4956 because it is a "copy" and they don't dismiss the SK400 which they use for their dating connected with 537 and 607 BCE!!! Bottom line is, if it is a copy from an earlier period there is a 99% chance it is a reveised document with revised dates.

This is problematic because the SK400 and the VAT4956 are the only texts used by R. Newton to confirm the current popular dating of the NB Period, he dismissing as totally fraudulent Ptolemy's canon, which is the other foundation of the NB "absolute dating" via astronomical texts.

The only other critical eclipses dating the NB Period that could be considered "contemporary" all have substitute eclipses in the 455 BCE timeline. Thus.

1. The Nabon 18, dating year 2 of Nabonidus to 454 BCE by a rare eclipse in progress at moonset, occurring in month 6, also occurs in month 6 of year 22 of Nabonidus in 479 BCE per the 455 BCE chronology. So this was just a swap-out.

2. Same with the Assyrian eponym eclipse misdated to 763 BCE. When the NB Period is dated via the Bible the 1st of Nebuchadnezzar occurs in 547 BCE, which is 57 years later than 604 BCE. So going into the Assyrian Period you need a matching eclipse in the month of Simanu close to 57 years later. It occurs in 709 BCE, which is not only the more normally dated month 3, but it is an extremely rare and predictable eclipse, explaining why such as fuss was made over it in the annals in the first place. Another swap-out.

Now note, after the Assyrian Period you get "absolute dating" from 14C (radiocarbon dating) as well. For example, 14C dating of short-lived cereals as the destructive level of Rehov City IV dates that event using new technology between 874 and 867 BCE, with an absolute mid-range date of 95.4% probability (918-923 BCE) of 871 BCE. Using the 763 BCE eclipse to date Shishak's invasio it falls in 925 BCE, so it conflicts with the 14C by just over half a century. But if you correct the Assyrian eponym eclipse to 709 BCE, Shishak's invasion drops down 54 years to 871 BCE, which is right in the middle of that narrow 14C range! So now you have a radiometric confirmation aligning with the 709 BCE eclipse now.

Shishak's invasion, in turn, occurs late in Solomon's reign while Rehoboam was still over the 12 tribes, so if we date that invasion to year 39 of Solomon in 871 BCE, then his 4th year falls in 906 BCE, which means the Exodus 480 years earlier falls specifically, using the 709 BCE eclipse combined with the 14C dating for Shishak in 871 BCE to: 1386 BCE!!!

So I don't mind overcoming some of your discussion points or showing how they fit into my chronology, but this is such a DONE DEAL now. There's no turning back. You can either go with real dating and the Bible or pretend the Persians didn't make any changes to their timeline. It's up to you. But the Bible's timeline is independent now since 1947, especially for the criticial dates involving the restoration, or return from exile or release from bondage that links the Exodus, the return from Babylon and the final return after the Holocaust in 1947 to a very specific chronology involving 70 weeks.

LS

34

My understanding of the "70 Years" and the "Babylonian Exile" (without chronology)

by Doug Mason in

in my view, there needs to be a very clear decoupling of the destruction wrought on jerusalem/judah from the 70 years of servitude/babylonian domination.. .

the destruction was the outcome of the people failing over many centuries to obey god, and it was a conditional prophecy, the outcome of which depended on the people's response.. .

however, the servitude to babylon, experienced by several countries, was an unconditional prophecy.

Larsinger58

Jonathan, In explanation of this statement:

E. The seventy year prophecy at Jeremiah 25:11 did not apply to Jerusalem and Judah alone but to all nations which fell under the domination of the Babylonian Empire. These nations, as a unit, comprising theBabylonian Empire collectively, served the king(s) of Babylon seventy years.

Please note that there were peripheral kingdoms to the northern and southern regions, such as Ashkelon and Tyre that were to serve a sepcific 70 years of desolation.

Please note the 10-tribe northern kingdom area had been empty of Israelites since the Assyrian times but had become repopulated by others. So you not only had non-Israelites in the northern kingdom area, but some of these other city-states that were to serve these specific 70 years.

We turn to Josephus for context again where in Antiquities he describes the last campaign into the region for a while in the 23rd year of Nebuchadnezzar. This was the year he deported all the people completely off the land after he had destroyed them earlier. Thus just as with the destruction of Jerusalem where some of the poor people and a governor were left to harvest crops, there were still a few people left in the land for practical reasons and minimal maintenance. We can presume this "policy" was applied to the other cities in the region which by year 23 was sparsely populated and that is when Nebuchadnezzar completely emptied the land of people and the entire region became a desolate waste.

Take Tyre, for instance. It was to be desolated for 70 years. Per Josephus there was a 13-year siege of Tyre beginning the 7th year of Nebuchadnezzar, thus from the 7th through the 20th years of Nebuchadnezzar. So Tyre was actually destroyed and vassalized by year 20 of Nebuchadnezzar. But some of the people may have been left in that city and at Ashkelon and in the northern kingdom to harvest crops, etc. being removed out of the land specifically in the 23rd year during this last campaign. So the other "nations" that would serve the same 70 years as the last-deported Jews were the other nations in the region. This emphasizes that the LAND ITSELF had to serve the 70 years and that means all peoples, whether Jews or not had to be removed out of the land and they would serve Babylon at least 70 years. Keep in mind there were several deportations to Babylon from this region so some Jews served more than seventy years. By the 23rd of Nebuchadnezzar, Daniel had been in Babylon 24 years already. So his exile was actually 94 years. He was 100 years old by the 1st of Cyrus when he finally was released. So when he was visited by angels in the 3rd year of Cyrus he was a very, very old man of 103.

So again, I can see how this tangent is trying to be developed over the "nations" serving 70 years, when in fact it is just incidental to clearing the entire northern and southern kingdom areas including the seacoast cities of Ashkelon, Tyre and others. The "servitude" to Babylon, in fact, must be done AT BABYLON, so these people were off their land.

I can see why there is such a vehement argument over "at Babylon" vs "for Babylon" since "AT Babylon" would definitely require deportation servitude. But since we know the Jews were deported in the context of serving Babylon, the nations would also be implied to be serving AT Babylon as well and thus in exile from their lands.

That's how I'm reading it anyway.

Thanks for posting the discussion.

LS

34

My understanding of the "70 Years" and the "Babylonian Exile" (without chronology)

by Doug Mason in

in my view, there needs to be a very clear decoupling of the destruction wrought on jerusalem/judah from the 70 years of servitude/babylonian domination.. .

the destruction was the outcome of the people failing over many centuries to obey god, and it was a conditional prophecy, the outcome of which depended on the people's response.. .

however, the servitude to babylon, experienced by several countries, was an unconditional prophecy.

Larsinger58

Jonathan: I lifted this from the link your provided:

H. The seventy years could not have ended when the exiles returned to Judah in 537 B.C.E. because there existed no king of Babylon to serve for two years between 537 B.C.E. and 539 B.C.E. after Persia began its reign in 539 B.C.E..

This is a joke. Nabonidus was ruling until Cyrus imprisoned him. Darius the Mede ruled for six years and was the grandson of Nebuchadnezzar, so all during the 6-year rule of Darius the Mede, Nabonidus was still on the loose. Remember, they just went in without a battle and took over the city. Belshazzar was ruling and was killed, but Darius the Mede was a Babylonian heir to the throne as well. So there were actually two Babylonian kings ruling during the 6-year perid from the fall of Jerusalem until the 1st of Cyrus. The rule of Cyrus and the rule of Darius the Mede do not overlap and the Bible clearly shows the Darius the Mede's kingdom ruled first. Allow me...

Daniel 6: 28 "And as for this Daniel, he prospered in the kingdom of Da·ri´us and in the kingdom of Cyrus the Persian."

Now note this very specific reference as to when the 70 years would end. It would not be when the kingdom of the Medes took over, which was when Darius the Mede the grandson of Nebuchadnezzar was ruling, but when the "royalty of PERSIA" began to rule, meaning when Cyrus the Persian comes to the throne after the rule of Darius. Allow me...

2 Chronicles 36: 20 Furthermore, he carried off those remaining from the sword captive to Babylon, and they came to be servants to him and his sons until the royalty of Persia began to reign; 21 to fulfill Jehovah’s word by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had paid off its sabbaths. All the days of lying desolated it kept sabbath, to fulfill seventy years.

This confirms four things:

1) That the Jews would still be in exile during the reign of Darius the Mede who was one of the "sons" of Nebuchadnezzar, and thus an extension of the Babylonian empire, while Nabonidus was still at large in Borsippa.

2) That the end of the 70 years is specifically when the "royalty of PERSIA" began to rule as distinctive from the "royalty of the Medes." Again, noting Daniel 6 the Bible separates the "kingdom of Darius" from the "Kingdom of Cyrus the Persian."

So it is when the royal Persian empire under Cyrus takes over that the Jews are released in his first year and that the 70 years ends, beginning the 23rd year of Nebuchadnezzar.

3) That the land itself would have to remain desolate for 70 years, beginning with the last deportation.

4) That the ones serving these specific 70 years are the ones "remaining from the sword" which is a reference to the Jews left over from those not killed by Nebuchadnezzar who had ran down to Egypt. As Jeremiah 44:14 and 28 show, these are the ones referred to as the ones "remaining from the sword" and a small remnant of them would then return to Judea. So the last deportation in year 23 was from Judea of these few "escaped" ones who were deported in year 23.

Now, that is not saying that Olof Jonsson and a hundred others can interpret 70-year prophecies pertaining to many other things, including a 64-year rounded to 70-year interpretation of Babylonian dominance. (604-539=65 years not 70!). So there is no need to discuss nor contradict that 70-year domination of by Babylon. This is an entirely different reference relating to when 70 year of desolation of the land to pay back its sabbaths began and the servitude during those specific 70 years of those "remaining from the sword" who were deported last, in year 23 of Nebuchadnezzar. This is entirely separate from Babylonian domination arguments, which may very well work out quite well for those who have worked them out.

So the Bible and Josephus are in sync for the 70 years beginning with the last deportation to the 1st of Cyrus from year 23 of Nebuchadnezzar and the deportation of those last ones returning to Judea from Egypt.

JW MISINTERPRETATION OF THE 70 YEARS: Now just for the record, JWs do recognize a 70-year period of desolation of the land to pay back its sabbaths. Great. That's correct. But they incorrectly rope Josephus into confirming these 70 years begin in year 18 of Nebuchadnezzar which they date to 607 BCE! Josephus does NOT begin his 70 years in year 18, but in year 23 as does the Bible, with the last deportation. So that's a critical difference between the Bible/Josephus, and the WTS. Also, JWs do not recognize the 6-year rule of Darius the Mede, or that he is the grandson of Nebuchadnezzar for that matter. So 607 BCE is such a wrong date in so many ways its a total joke. But so is all the other SECULAR Babylonian dates like 539 BCE for the fall of Babylon. It's not Biblical. Per the Bible's own timeline, Babylon falls in 562 BCE. But that's another discussion.

Thanks for your comments. I didn't read through the entire commentary once I saw it didn't understand the Babylonian kingships continued down to the first of Cyrus, even through the reign of Darius the Mede, with both he and Nabonidus being reigning Babylonian kings.

Lars

34

My understanding of the "70 Years" and the "Babylonian Exile" (without chronology)

by Doug Mason in

in my view, there needs to be a very clear decoupling of the destruction wrought on jerusalem/judah from the 70 years of servitude/babylonian domination.. .

the destruction was the outcome of the people failing over many centuries to obey god, and it was a conditional prophecy, the outcome of which depended on the people's response.. .

however, the servitude to babylon, experienced by several countries, was an unconditional prophecy.

Larsinger58

Thanks Billy:

rs: "What's the purpose of Christ arriving at the 70th week if it is the64th week?"
Um, if this is what you're talking about, you better brush up on Daniel some more. Christ didn't arrive at the 70th week...
(Daniel 9:24-26) 24 “There are seventy weeks that have been determined upon your people and upon your holy city, in order to terminate the transgression, and to finish off sin, and to make atonement for error, and to bring in righteousness for times indefinite, and to imprint a seal upon vision and prophet, and to anoint the Holy of Holies. 25 And you should know and have the insight [that] from the going forth of [the] word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem until Mes?si′ah [the] Leader, there will be seven weeks, also sixty-two weeks. She will return and be actually rebuilt, with a public square and moat, but in the straits of the times.
26 “And after the sixty-two weeks Mes?si′ah will be cut off, with nothing for himself.

This is how it works. There is a first and second coming and this prophecy combines prophecies about three messiahs:

1) The first coming messiah as a man.

2) The second coming messiah as a man.

3) The messiah as represented by the Jews.

1) THE FIRST COMING: It is a complex prophecy. But in regards to the 70th week and the messiah arriving at that time, the 490 years or 70 weeks are divided up into 1, 7 and 62 weeks. Thus the messiah arriving at the 70th week is derived from the statement that "gift and sacrifice" end in the middle of the last week, the 70th week. Therefore when the 70th week is calculated for the 1st coming it is the 1 week at the end of both 62 weeks and 7 weeks. Most or many religions clearly see the messiah arriving after 69 weeks and then dying in the middle of the 70th. That is also JW teaching. This works out chronologically as well since we see JWs beginning the 70 weeks in 455 BCE and ending it in 36 CE with the messiah arriving, being baptized, in 29 CE considered the end of 69 weeks.

Now this is fundamental JW doctrine and of many other religions that Christ in 29 CE fulfills the 69th week. I'm just saying that to note others have surmised this meaning and "interpretation belongs to God" so.

2) What many don't realize is that the second coming mimicks the first. That is, the messiah arrives during the 70th week.

3) For the first and second coming the "week" is just 7 years, the 70th 7-year week out of 490 years. But for the Jewish nation it is 7x that. That is, 7x490 years = 3430 years. These 70 weeks can be calculated by astronomical text for the 1st of Akhenaten who is the pharaoh who follows the Exodus and converts to monotheism in recognition of Yahweh. Archaeology supports the fall of Jerusalem by the Israelites between 1350-1325 BCE which fits the Exodus occurring in 1386 BCE. An astronomical text called the KTU 1.78 dates year 12 of Akhenaten to 1375 BCE so the Exodus can be dated absolutely to 1386 BCE for the 1st of Akhenaten. The Exodus is the first JUBILEE after this 3430 years begins since it celebrates the Jews leaving Egypt. The final return fulfills the 70th jubilee.

In other words 3430 years is 70 jubilee weeks of 49 years each. 7 x 490 is the same as 70 x 49. So what we do is, after establishing the true date for the Exodus in 1386 BCE is count back to the beginning of this "70 weeks" of 49 years each which gives us 1435 BCE.

1386 + 49 = 1435 BCE. 1435 BCE begins the 70 jubilee weeks of 3430 years, which thus ends in 1996. Because.

3430 - 1435 = 1995 + 1 = 1996.

This ends the 70 jubilees. The 70th jubilee would begin 49 years earlier and should fulfill when the Jews are restored to their homeland. Thus 1996 minus 49 is 1947. That's the precise year the Jews regained their homeland.

Now many are not really intuitive enough to understand how complex the prophecy is and its triple layers of fulfillment, but once you do and test it against true chronology it is amazing how that works out.

The fact is the 1, 7 and 62 weeks can can be combined flexibly to fulfill all three messianic prophecies in which all three messiahs arrive during the 70th week.

Of course, if you have your own interpretation, none of this would pertain to you. I respect your own interpretation. But the above is basically how it has become fulfilled.

THE CUT OFF: THUS the "cut off" has to be taken in isolation and context. We find that context at Zech 13:8 which prophesies the extermination of 6 million Jews during the Holocaust:

ZECH 13: 8 “And it must occur in all the land,” is the utterance of Jehovah, “[that] two parts in it are what will be cut off [and] expire; and as for the third [part], it will be left remaining in it. 9 And I shall certainly bring the third [part] through the fire; and I shall actually refine them as in the refining of silver, and examine them as in the examining of gold. It, for its part, will call upon my name, and I, for my part, will answer it. I will say, ‘It is my people,’ and it, in its turn, will say, ‘Jehovah is my God.’”

Thus we have a direct association and link of the "cut off" in association with the two-thirds extermination of the Jews during the end-times. The "cut off" in Daniel must occur in some scenario at the end of 62 weeks. Now you do have three options. It can be the first 62 weeks within the 490 years, or it can be 62 weeks after the first 7 weeks, which is 49 years. Or it can be at the end of the week after the 1 week and 7 weeks.

In this case, since it is a past event we need only make the application. So what we do is acknowledge the final 490 years, 70 weeks from 1506 to 1996. And we determine when the Holocaust occurred which was primarily say from 1940-1944. Late 1939 is when Poland was conquered. Now we compare that to the 70 weeks beginning in 1506 BCE.

62 weeks is 434 years. So if we interpret this to mean the very first 434 years of this week beginning in 1506 AD then we get 1940.

1506 + 434 = 1940

Since the restoration of the Jews fulfilling their 70th jubilee is from 1947 to 1949, we know the "great tribulation" and "extermination" of 2/3rds of the Jews must happen during the 1 week period, their last 7 years of exile before their restoration in 1947. So the "cut off" at the end of 62 weeks is fulfilled by 1940 beginning the Holocaust. Thus between 1940 and 1947 two-thirds of the population of these people, men, women and child old and young, rich and educated, would be exterminated. Unbelievable for a Christian world in a modern culture. But it happened. 6 million Jews did get exterminated between 1940-1947 with 1940 beginning the 62 weeks.

So we don't have to guess about that fulfillment after the fact. The actual fulfillment confirms it for us. And you can calculate this using 36 CE, 29 CE or the Exodus date of 1386 BCE. Or better yet, use 1947 as a pivotal date for the entire 70 weeks.

Now please note that 29 CE and 36 CE have to match up with 1947 and 1940 as major events to be fulfilled, and all those dates have to match up with the Exodus in 1386 BCE. Which they do.

But it also much match up with the 70 years. That's because the end of the 70 years occurs in the 1st of Cyrus when the Jews return from Babylon. That in turn is 19 jubilees from the Exodus. So you can see what I'm getting at. If the Exodus was in 1386 BCE then 19 jubilees later for the jubilee of the return from Babylon must occur in 455 BCE for the jubilees to line up.

19 x 49 = 931 931 plus 455 = 1386 BCE. So now the release from Egypt at the Exodus, the return from Babylon in 455 BCE and the final return in 1947 all fulfill prophetic patterns. 1947 to 1996 is the 70th jubilee from 1435 BCE but the 50th jubilee from 455 bCE! So it fulfills BOTH the 50th and the 70th patterns. Thus 1947-1996 is chronological big deal in the Bible. In fact, we can now use 1947 to date every single major event in the Bible now. If you know how to do it and are a Biblical chronologist. Everyone doesn't have the mind for numbers, but I think you do.

Hope that answered some of your questions.

LS

34

My understanding of the "70 Years" and the "Babylonian Exile" (without chronology)

by Doug Mason in

in my view, there needs to be a very clear decoupling of the destruction wrought on jerusalem/judah from the 70 years of servitude/babylonian domination.. .

the destruction was the outcome of the people failing over many centuries to obey god, and it was a conditional prophecy, the outcome of which depended on the people's response.. .

however, the servitude to babylon, experienced by several countries, was an unconditional prophecy.

Larsinger58

Doug,

Maybe you don't understand me totally.

Lots of ideas about the 70 years, correct? Well we can test those against the Bible, loosely or strictly. If we're being strict, COJ's rounding off of the 70 years fails right off the bat so his wouldn't be considered Biblically accurate.

Not sure about yours.

But Josephus claiming the 70 years were from the last deportation to the 1st of Cyrus matches the Biblical record of Zechariah 1 since it is clear the Jews were still in exile 70 years after the destruction of Jerusalem. If the 70 years didn't begin until year 23, then that would mean the Jews had another 4 years to be in exile under Darius the Mede before Cyrus took over all of Persia. So he checks out as far as scriptural comparison goes.

Now that is not to say that some loosely applied 70 years for Babylon isn't a good interpretation in the Bible based on other scriptures, but it would have nothing to do with these historical 70 years which the Jews, if anyone, would know when they occurred.

At any rate, a "strict Biblicalist" does not have the flexibility of COJ or you who consider dismissing certain texts as spurious.

I believe there is no Biblical option here but to follow Josephus, but that's just my personal view. I respect yours to differ.

BTW, the WTS also inserts a literal 70 years of desolation for the land to pay back its sabbaths based on 2 Chronicles, only they do not start the 70 years when Josephus does. They start it in year 18 rather than year 23--but they do read 2 Chronicles as a definitive 70-year period, as I do.

Lars

34

My understanding of the "70 Years" and the "Babylonian Exile" (without chronology)

by Doug Mason in

in my view, there needs to be a very clear decoupling of the destruction wrought on jerusalem/judah from the 70 years of servitude/babylonian domination.. .

the destruction was the outcome of the people failing over many centuries to obey god, and it was a conditional prophecy, the outcome of which depended on the people's response.. .

however, the servitude to babylon, experienced by several countries, was an unconditional prophecy.

Larsinger58

Doug,

70 is symbolic. The desolation for exactly 70 years makes it symbolic. Why would God round it off to 64 years? That's ridiculous. When God tries to fulfill PATTERNS then it is suppose to come out perfect otherwise it makes the pattern meaningless.

For instance, the SEVENS. Seven is used significantly in various denominations such as 7, 49, 70 and 490. It makes no sense when you have the power to imply "70" with 64 or 62 or some other jive number.

What's the purpose of Christ arriving at the 70th week if it is the64th week?

At any rate, there may be an implied 70 year NeoBabylonian Empire that works out. I'm just saying that there were 70 years from year 23, the last deportation, until the 1st of Cyrus, which is a historical reference of note. You can take it or leave it. In other words.

Olof Jonsson has his pet theory about the 70 years.

You have your pet theory about the 70 years.

But guess what? Josephus just happens to have his pet theory about the 70 years as well. So I'm just noting that as a matter of record, that a Jewish historian interpreted the 70 years of Jeremiah to have occurred between the last deportation and the 1st of Cyrus during which the land was completely desolated. Now if that is just another historical falacy, then so be it. I'm just saying there is a SECULAR SOURCE out there from the Jews regarding the 70 years that I think is relevant. That theory, though, means the NB Period is 26 years longer than the current surviving records represent it.

Per you the Bible is an inaccurate and made up book of myths anyway, so it doesn't matter really. There is no great need to be accurate, no more than the 70 years need to be EXACTLY 70 years to make a symbolic point.

Everybody is entitled to express their wrong opinions. It's called freedom of speech.

Thanks for explaining this further.

WHAT I WOULD ASK YOU IS: Why are you so concerned about the 70 years if you think the Bible is not accurate in the first place? Why should the 70 years be any more significant than anything else in the Bible?

Thanks.

Lars

4

After You Leave, Then What?

by Cold Steel in

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Larsinger58

LEAVING the WTS is like leaving the "broad road" that leads off into destruction. You go down the narrow path. That narrow path represents the PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP you have with God.

So what next is that you develop that personal relationship. You study the scriptures for the truth.

Now one JW mindset that comes up is the Bible says, "not forsaking gathering yourself together" just before the end. Well that doesn't mean an organized religion. That means being with others who support your personal relationship with others. So you can "gather yourselves together" right here in these discussion boards. Aren't we here encouraging the wounded from the WTS borg? Of course we are. Even if some do not agree totally with everything you understand, there is a very common thread and that is we know for a fact the WTS is the "evil slave" and the "man of lawlessness" and the false prophet. So that's a lot in common.

I don't think Jehovah is going to judge much on details of prophecy or scripture but on one's heart and love for fellowman. God will reveal the deep secrets to some of his prophets and all will be fulfilled. One needs to show some interest in those things, but the big step is leaving spiritually but maintaining your relationship with Jehovah. The WTS got in the way of that for many JWs, making themselves "mediator" between God and the person, thus becoming a form of the "antichrist", displacing him. Now you can have your own personal relationship with God and hang out with those who have left the organization for encouragement.

So you're doing great. And if you ever have second thoughts, there is plenty here to assure you the WTS does not have Jehovah's spirit any more. Just do the best you can and know that Jehovah is watching. Even some here who are giving up on the Bible entirely will still be nice to you, unlike the WTS who will abuse you if you try to speak the truth!!

Best wishes

LS

34

My understanding of the "70 Years" and the "Babylonian Exile" (without chronology)

by Doug Mason in

in my view, there needs to be a very clear decoupling of the destruction wrought on jerusalem/judah from the 70 years of servitude/babylonian domination.. .

the destruction was the outcome of the people failing over many centuries to obey god, and it was a conditional prophecy, the outcome of which depended on the people's response.. .

however, the servitude to babylon, experienced by several countries, was an unconditional prophecy.

Larsinger58

The 70 years, historically, as the Jews apply them are noted by Josephus at Ant. 11.1.1:

IN the first year of the reign of Cyrus which was the seventieth from the day that our people were removed out of their own land into Babylon, God commiserated the captivity and calamity of these poor people, according as he had foretold to them by Jeremiah the prophet, before the destruction of the city, that after they had served Nebuchadnezzar and his posterity, and after they had undergone that servitude seventy years, he would restore them again to the land of their fathers, and they should build their temple, and enjoy their ancient prosperity.

In other words, the people were removed out of their land at the time of the last deportation in year 23 of Nebuchadnezzar:

28 These are the people whom Neb·u·chad·rez´zar took into exile: in the seventh year, three thousand and twenty-three Jews.
29 In the eighteenth year of Neb·u·chad·rez´zar, from Jerusalem there were eight hundred and thirty-two souls.
30 In the twenty-third year of Neb·u·chad·rez´zar, Neb·u´zar·ad´an the chief of the bodyguard took Jews into exile, seven hundred and forty-five souls.

So when the last people were finally removed from the land, then the land could rest and pay back its sabbaths of 70 years. So you see, it is really not that complicated at all. The 70 years are from the last deportation until the 1st of Cyrus. You can't have a desolated land paying back its sabbaths if there are still people in the land.

Thus it is important to remember the primary reason for the 70 years is in relation to the land. The "servitude" to Babylon is incidental. That's just where the deported people were while the land lay desolate.

Now granted, it does get confusing since more than the Jews had to be deported. But others besides the Jews were living in the land. The entire land had to be emptied. That means both the northern and southern kingdom areas and the borderline non-Isralite cities as well, like Ashkelon and Tyre. So other nations were involved in being deported, the last ones being deported in year 23 of Nebuchadnezzar also serving for 70 years.

So if you just follow Jewish historical application of their own interpretation of when the 70 years of Jeremiah took place, then issues of Babylonian sovereignty and all that don't come up, even though all those other things work out perfectly.

Thanks for sharing your interpretation though. Olof Jonsson got really confused over this as well for some reason. If you think about the desolation of the land rather than the servitude, then it is less easy to get mixed up regarding the 70 years. Your view of the 70 years, of course, is both non-Biblical and non-historical. Or I should say even if you could imply a 70-year Babylonian domination scenario, it would have absolutely nothing to do with Zechariah's prophecy of the 70 years.

Zechariah's prophecy is about the land and has nothing to do with the fall of Jerusalem, the mourning for Gedaliah, or when Babylon came to power. It has to do with the last deportation that removed the people off the land so it could lie desolate for 70 years.

This is reflected by Ezekiel where the error for the 10 tribes is 390 years and the error for Judah is 40 years. This is the agricultural error of not letting the land rest every 7 years and during the jubilee. This responsibilty is shared equally, thus.

390 years, which is 39 years for each of the 10 tribes, and 40 years for Judah, since they ruled longer is a total of 430 years.

Divide 430 years by the two agri-sabbaths and you get 70 years:

430 divided by the 7-year sabbath is 61.4

430 divided by the 50-year jubilee is 8.6

61.4 and 8.6 = 70

430 years of missed sabbaths is made up by 70 years of complete desolation and rest, beginning with the last deportation, just as Josephus indicates. The Jews knew when the 70-years of Jeremiah occurred. It's just a matter of checking secular Jewish history to answer this simple question. But for some reason, Josephus and the Bible are ignored in some effort to harmonize the Bible with the popular Babylonian timeline, which there can never, ever, ever be any harmonization since the Bible's NB Period is 26 years longer than the current secular NB Period. When a JW finds a conflict between the Bible and secular, they always choose the Bible, which is the correct choice.

In summary, the Babylonian EXILE and DESOLATION are exactly the same 70 years, from year 23 of Nebuchadnezzar to the 1st of Cyrus. Simple.

and final. But only if you need to have the facts and truth. Otherwise, I rather like your 70-year explanation, Mason. Plus I always get a big laugh when I read Olof Jonsson's explanation, especially where he tries to make it work by claiming the 70 years are not really 70 years but a rounded off 64 or 66 years or something like that. I mean, come on...

LS