Posts by Larsinger58

99

How Would you Interpret the Sign of the Last Days?

by Mr. Falcon in

harold camping.

2012. wtbs doomsday prophecy.

maze's ramblings.

Larsinger58

Larsinger58 - So if I'm understanding you correctly, you believe that the JW doctrine of literal Jews no longer being a chosen people, but that the "chosen tribes" are completely symbolic and include all people, is false, right? That is very thought-provoking. It would make sense when one considers the promises that God gave to patriarchs like Abraham and Isaac concerning their seed. He promised them inheritances for their lines, so one could take this in a literal sense. God said nothing about cutting off the seed of Abraham. True the ancient Jews had a rocky relationship at times with God, but there was no black-and-white voiding of His original promise to Abraham, yes?

Basically, the Christian covenant was in additon to the Abrahamic covenant. Both covenants end in 1996. They are look two staffs that become one within spiritual Israel. The natural Jews make up 10% of the kingdom, 144,000 seats. The other 90% is made up of gentiles.

As you note, the promise to restore the Jews to their homeland, particularly in celebration of the 70th jubilee did occur; the Jews have their homeland back and are a prosperous nation through Jehovah's blessing. But this comes on the heels of the "great tribulation", a unique event in world history, which was the HOLOCAUST. Obviously, if Jehovah is punishing the Jews during the Holocaust, causing two-thirds to pass through the fire, as prophesied at Zech 13:8, then clearly that covenant is still in place. Further, again, what about the promise of restoration to their homeland? That part of the promise did come true. So certainly the covenant is still in place.

A specific reference to the covenant is at Daniel 9 where it says specifically let the covenant be in place for the many until the end of the week:

27 “And he must keep [the] covenant in force for the many for one week; and at the half of the week he will cause sacrifice and gift offering to cease."

The "many" here is a reference to the Jewish covenant, the "few" would be a reference to those under the Christian covenant. Since this is about the second coming it confirms the covenant week for the many, that is the Jews, would continue in force until th eend of the week. That "week" is 49 years from 1949-1996. The end of the "sacrifice and gift" in the middle of te week, in this case, is in relation to when the prodigal son leaves his father's house and becomes spiritually dead. The "fruit of the lips" is a form of sacrifice and gift and so the witnessing and preaching and Christian lifestyle of the messiah ends when he turns to a life of sexual immorality.

If you divide 49 years, 7 weeks of 7 years each into 3 + 3 + 1, then the middle 7-year period would fall from 1968-1975. That is:

3 x 7 = 21

21 + 1947 = 1968

1968 + 7= 1975

This represents my ages of 18-25. Around 18 I became sexually active, ended up getting disfellowshipped later on, even became a male prostitute for a while when I was 22-23, but by 1975 I was back in the truth. I know because I went to the assembly in 1975 and heard that talk about how thy were not expecting there to be another assembly next year because they were expecting Armageddon, etc.

So the end of sacrifice and gift in terms of the messiah's spritual death did occur in relation to when the prodigal son becomes spiritually dead in the middle of the week. But our primary point here is that the covenant with the Jews was still in force until 1996. Their 70th jubilee from the time of Moses was from 1947-1996.

But can you see what is happening? Once you focus on all the prophecies about the 2nd coming and the messiah, it becomes clear the Bible absolutely supports a physical second coming and in 1992. Once you finally see that's the case then you will ask whether the true Christ arrived in 1992 or not and I'm here to answer the personal questions that fulfill the details of prophecy, such as was I really a male prostitute at one time. I have proof because I got arrested for it. Or the prophecy that he would appear like an "Ethiopian eunuch", meaning an effeminate (gay) black male. Of course, that's the case as well.

The messiah, Lazarus, can be identified because he torments the GB (the rich man) with his teachings, which are like a sharp, double-edged sword with which he strikes the nations. That means I should have some advanced truth that exposes some old lies. Well I do. The academic world is still lying about the true timeline for the NB Period, I expose that and establish the true, original timeline, using both the Bible and ancient astronomy texts like the VAT4956 and the SK400. It is not a mistake they were created and preserved to confirm this. Plus the cmpetition between me and the WTS as far as what the Bible truly teaches is a slam-dunk win for me. And these are easy false teachings most anyone can follow, like the day of the week of Jesus' death not being a Friday but a Thursday. It's just a matter of looking closely at all the scriptures and figuring it out.

So all is being fulfilled, but you have to look at what the scriptures say first to know if what is said is being fulfilled.

It is and it is through me. "I'm coming out" to confirm who I am now with the scriptures to support that. Eventually, you'll see that I match the promised messiah of 1992, whether you accept me or not. But if you don't accept me, you'd best be looking for the other ex-male prostitute black messiah, because only someone fitting that description is the true messiah of the Bible.

LS

99

How Would you Interpret the Sign of the Last Days?

by Mr. Falcon in

harold camping.

2012. wtbs doomsday prophecy.

maze's ramblings.

Larsinger58

FALCON:

Larsinger58 - Thank you for your commentary. I honestly never even considered all of what you are claiming, but it is extremely interesting. The persecution of the Jews during WWII didn't encompass the entire Jewish race, but then again, the destruction of Jerusalem didn't include the entire Jewish race alive at that time either. That is a damn interesting analysis you make.

Yes, it is a focal interpretation. Gog of Magog which was the German Nazis and WWII is the setting of the great tribulation, thus the Jews in Europe, Eastern Europe primarily. The new "Judea" would be the primary resettlement of Jews in exile, and Warsaw, Poland became the anti-typical Jerusalem. The fulfillment of the prophecy at Zechariah 13:8 that says two thirds of the Jews would be exterminated and then one third would be preserved and restored to their homeland reflects the six million out of nine million Jews that died in the Holocaust. So it is considered to be fulfilled focally in the context of Nazi Germany and WWII, Eastern Europe, the death camps, etc.

However, if what you say is correct, does that mean that the Jews during the Holocaust and the State of Israel are still God's chosen people? What about what Jesus said when he told them that their "house is abandoned to them." What do you think he was referring to there?

Yes, good point. But Jehovah did abandon the Jews and their house causing the "appointed times of the nations" to take place. But only for an appointed time. When Jesus said their house was abandoned to them, he didn't say forever. Following scriptures it is clear there was an abandonmnt, an exile followed by a sword, but also the promise of restoration by a remnant. Allow me to quote that:

ZECH 13:8 "And it must occur in all the land," is the utterance of Jehovah, "[that] two parts in it are what will be cut off [and] expire; and as for the third [part], it will be left remaining in it. 9 And I shall certainly bring the third [part] through the fire; and I shall actually refine them as in the refining of silver, and examine them as in the examining of gold. It, for its part, will call upon my name, and I, for my part, will answer it. I will say, ‘It is my people,’ and it, in its turn, will say, ‘Jehovah is my God.’"

That is, two thirds of the nation would expire and be exterminated and one third would be preserved. That is fulfilled by the well known six million Jews that died in the Holocaust out of an estimated 9 million; just as the Bible prophesied. Further, the State of Israel was established right on the heels of the Holocaust as prophesied and received God's blessing.

So yes, there are TWO COVENANTS that were in place until 1996, a Christian covenant with the focal covenant with JWs as the temple sect, and the natural Jews. Note the "disgusting thing in a holy place" has a double fulfillment with the focus of Nazis on both Jews and JWs. JWs in the spiritual concept would be like the tribe of Levi, a special tribe handling special, sacred things, like the preaching of the "good news", but the covenant is with all of Christianity,which is also considered God's house.

So yes, the Jews were still recognized as God's chosen people, as well as JWs, but only until 1996. That covenant is now "fulfilled" and thus ended. The Covenant is fulfilled in spiritual Israel, a combination of Jews and gentiles, specificall 10% natural Jews and 90% gentiles (see Isa 6:13)

ISA 6:13

13 And there will still be in it a tenth, and it must again become something for burning down, like a big tree and like a massive tree in which, when there is a cutting down [of them], there is a stump; a holy seed will be the stump of it."

The stump is natural Jews, 144,000. The branches made up by gentiles is 90%, 1,296,000 making up the total kingdom of 1,440,000. The two covenants, the two staffs, are now one.

LS

99

How Would you Interpret the Sign of the Last Days?

by Mr. Falcon in

harold camping.

2012. wtbs doomsday prophecy.

maze's ramblings.

Larsinger58

I think the discussions about the signs of the last days is a great topic. But the fact is, it is not discussed in the context of BIBLE CHRONOLOGY. Bible chronology dates the "great tribulation",which was the Holocaust between 1940-1947, that is, after 62 weeks. It dates the 2nd coming 45 years after the "end" of the gentile times, which ended on November 30, 1947.

So while it is interesting to compare all the things happening to what the Bible prophesied, there is zero flexibility about when the 2nd coming is to occur, without or without attendant signs.

So I think we can graduate to the point of understanding the sign in relation to the "fixed dates" which would be the 70th jubilee beginning in 1947 and ending the 1290 days, the 1335 days fulfilling the 2nd coming in 1992. The "7 times" prophecy following Biblical dating for the fall of Jerusalem in 529 BCE also dating 2nd coming in 1992, and the 2nd coming fulfilling the 70th week. Ignoring CHRONOLOGY means you have flexibility in interpretation. Once you strictly apply the chronology, though, it limits interpretation.

Plus, some of this has to be sheer DENIAL. For instance, it doesn't take long to discover that Xerxes faked his own death with the help of Themistocles and claimed that Artaxerxes was his own son. I just made that statemen and nobody ever bothers to contradict it. The pharaoh of the Exodus is clearly Akhenaten who converted to monotheism after the 10 plagues; how obvious can yu get. But you don't get that from modern scholars.

So Satan's propaganda machine goes deep, using the academic world to promote a false reality. But part of this program is train people not to think for themselves or not to be curious past what the "experts" are telling you. Few want to investigate anything that disturbs their comfort level. Thus you have what the Bible prophesied, many who are "always taking in knowledge, but never coming to an accurate knowledge of the truth."

In the meantime, Jehovah blinds the minds of the unbelievers, making it difficult for them to respond to truth and reality, even if explained to them in detail:

ACTS 13:41 ‘Behold it, YOU scorners, and wonder at it, and vanish away, because I am working a work in YOUR days, a work that YOU will by no means believe even if anyone relates it to YOU in detail.’"

So it looks like that is the way it's going to be. Some with all the answers and some with continuing doubts or comfortable presumptions. Some love the darkness and hate the light.

LS

99

How Would you Interpret the Sign of the Last Days?

by Mr. Falcon in

harold camping.

2012. wtbs doomsday prophecy.

maze's ramblings.

Larsinger58

I'M SO GLAD I HAVE THE TRUTH. SO GLAD.

99

How Would you Interpret the Sign of the Last Days?

by Mr. Falcon in

harold camping.

2012. wtbs doomsday prophecy.

maze's ramblings.

Larsinger58

MR. FALCON. ANOTHER VERY IMPORTANT POINT:

There are TWO tribulations in the Bible. One that occurs before the messiah arrives, which is the Holocaust. The other which is linked with Armageddon which occurs after the messiah arrives and has sealed the elect and after Satan has been active in the earth for a "short while" after being kicked out of heaven, preparing the nations for "Armageddon."

So. If you don't understand this and you try to combine the Holocaust with Armageddon, as do JWs, then the scriptures are not going to work out or make sense.

So you need to realize there are two "tribulations" an not confuse them as many do.

Another point is CHRONOLOGY. The second coming has to fulfill several prophetic patterns, including the "1335 days", the "70th week" and the "7 times." The great tribulation of Matthew 24 is also bound by chronology. It begins with the "cut off" after 62 weeks and continues for 1 week, though the actual days of tribulation were cut short. This is followed by a jubile period of 7 weeks, or 49 years. So in the context of the two tribulations, the Holocaust must occur between 1940-1947. This is dated and matched to chronology. But Armageddon is not dated in the Bible. This is totally within the jurisdiction of Jehovah. It is his personal choice to decide when enough is enough and close to the door of life, which is not an anxious event; in fact, just the opposite. The Bible lets us know it will be at the very last minute. It will seem "delayed" but it will not be "late."

How can something be "delayed" but not be "late"? Well one way is if the tribulation is thought to last for an extended period of time, say 15 months. We might expect the tribulation to begin and continue for 15 months based on a certain date. But as with the first tribulation, the Holocaust, which ended early in 1945 instead of 1947, if the length of the tribulation is cut short in the beginning, the it would seem "delayed" but it would not be late if it still ends on time.

That is, in practical application here. Let's say we expect the millennium to begin on December 21, 2012, preceeded by 15 months rule by the UN which we consider would begin with the great tribulation against Babylon the Great. From the end of December 2012 to the end of December 2011 is one full year, 12 months. 3 more months to make 15 months would begin in October 2011. So we might expect the tribulation to begin by October 2011. But what if Jehovah, out of mercy, decides to "cut short the days" and limit the tribulation to say just 12 months? Then the tribulation would seem delayed, but as long as it finished up on time in late December, then it would not be "late" with respect to the appointed time Jehovah gave it. So a delayed start date but an on-time end date could be characterized as seeming delayed but not late; the end is on time but the beginning is delayed, etc.

But still, it should be clear that perhaps the elect are the ones who will understand all these things wheras the world at large would not. This fits the scenario of the 5 foolish and 5 wise virgins. The 10 virgins start out together as a group on their way to the wedding feast. They both experience the same thing; they both nod and their lamps grow dim at one point. This represents spiritual darkness of understanding kingdm detail. Then suddenly the bridegroom arrives and they wake up and get their lamps in order, but only the wise virgins have brought extra oil. The foolish virgins who did not bring extra oil want the wise virgins to share, but the wise virgins didn't come all this way to miss out, so they don't share any of their oil. This separates the two groups now. The wise go to meet the bridegroom but the foolish have to go find oil then return. As it turns out, the foolish return too late to get in. But it underscores that at one point true understanding is quite selective. Even Christ says he puts "new wine into new wineskins" and not into "old wineskins." So even within the kingdom there will be those with critical understanding and others with a general understanding in the context of old beliefs. That's because the hard new reality of fulfillment is too much for them.

So maybe sometimes it is not about what you know or can find out or answer, but simply whether you are asking or not. Some people don't know anything accurately, but they are not asking, either. Some never find the answers but at least they are inquiring. The extra oil of he wise virgins shows they have a more focussed invested interest in things Biblical and so that is rewarded to them. The foolish virgins lack this focusor concern and it costs them.

Now they eventually get their lamps burning. Like now I'm explaining the details of how these prophecies work. At some point it would be clear this must be the correct understanding. But it's late in the day now. The empty kingdom seats have been filled. So we are approaching, unfortunately the time of bitterness, where the "weeping and the gnashing of the teeth" will occur by those who believe and wanted to be in the kingdom and even were invited, but they were not paying attention, or were deceived into following the apostate WTS leaders, trusting that as long as they were following them closely, that guaranteed their salvation. But that is not true. The Bible clearly shows the WTS, though the temple covenant sect, the one that preaches the "good news", the one that comes out of the "earth" would become apostate. So that is fulfilled now and we have all the evidence now that the WTS has been cut off and are now in spiritual darkness.

So I suppose the JIOR elect will always have more complete understanding than others. It was just set up that way.

LS

99

How Would you Interpret the Sign of the Last Days?

by Mr. Falcon in

harold camping.

2012. wtbs doomsday prophecy.

maze's ramblings.

Larsinger58

MR. FALCON. You are looking for the right things, but asking the wrong questions based upon misconceptions.

Another good example: "The love of the greater number would cool off."

The WTS and perhaps a general reading of anyone might presume this "greater number" represents the world population and a general decrease in decent humanity. That's how the WTS presents it, linking it with increased crimes etc. But that is NOT what this means.

If there is a "greater number" then there is a "lesser number." There are two groups of "holy ones" during this time. The Christian "holy ones" under covenant, meaning Jehovah's witnesses, and the natural Jews. The "greater number" is always a reference to the natural Jews. The implied "lesser number" is a reference to Jehovah's witnesses.

JEWS AND JWS:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnTy8_EhE0Y

So the actual fulfillment of "the love of the greater number would cool off" during this time, is a direct reference to the increase in anti-semitism! That is, from the beginning of the first sign of this "last generation," which is a world war (i.e. nation vs nation, kingdom vs kingdom), the love of Jews, the "greater number" would cool off and thus Jews would be hated more and antisemitism would increase. Which it did. It was a critical component in the context of the Holocaust.

So having the correct interpretation of things makes all the difference in the world as far as understanding the fulfillment.

So I must emphasize to you, again, two things, if I may:

1. The Bible is true and its prophecies are fulfilled precisely and completely. But you must understand the true application.

2. The WTS is apostate and clueless about these details and you must look and study the scriptures afresh, hopefully not influenced by preconceived concepts of the WTS or others; case in point, that the "great tribulation" of Matthew 24 is Armageddon--it is not, it is a reference to the Holocaust and it is completely over before the messiah arrives and before the State of Israel is set up. Hopefully, you can see that with a closer look at the chain of events as presented in the Bible. Think about it. The days were cut short or else no flesh of the holy ones would be saved. Who are the holy ones here? And does Jehovah get so carried away with destroying the wicked that he almost accidentally wipes out all the righteous "holy ones" as well? Even so, the suggestion is that he does wipe out most of them, but stops short of wiping them all out along with the wicked? Is that what we are to think of Armageddon? No. Instead, when the "holy ones" are the natural Jews, the focus of this "desolation" by Gog of Magog, we understand the are the target of destruction. So yes, 2/3rds of the "holy ones" were always prophesied to be exterminated in this great tribulation, this one-time event that never happened before. And didn't the Holocaust shock the world. Doesn't it still shock us into disbelief? Wouldn't such an incredibly horried event, focussed on God's chosen people, not be mentioned as part of the signs of the las generation? Well of course! And it is! It is the "great tribulation". The great tribulation is the HOLOCAUST, a very critical event and sign leading up to the second coming.

So yes, some of us wonder how the Bible is fulfilled and we want answers, but we must go to the Bible directly and see what it is really telling us. And we need to look at ALL the references. Who are the "holy ones" and why are they being destroyed? Who are the "eagles" who surround the messiah. Why is the messiah being called a "carcass"? Why does the "sign of the son of man" cause those seeing it to beat themselves in lamentation? Why all the sadness and heartache in connection with the messiah? There are answers to all these questions now if we ask them. If you think the "end of the system of things" means Armageddon, things will not work out or make sense. But if you know the "end of the system of things" for the Jews Jesus was talking to meant the "end of the appointed times of the nations" or the "end of the gentile times" then it makes sense, and you know the "end" occurred on November 30, 1947. Then the Bible becomes an amazing book of fulfilled prophecy and not a failed book of doomsday naysayers as so many "scorners" claim to accommodate their own comfort level.

So, just in case you want to know the official fulfillments, you can ask me. I'm the official prophet at this point. That is, if you are truly interested in the truth; I find many are not. Many are here just to find support, emotional or otherwise, to their own beliefs, whether they are consistent with the Bible or not.

Thanks, again, for stimulating thoughts on this topic.

LS

99

How Would you Interpret the Sign of the Last Days?

by Mr. Falcon in

harold camping.

2012. wtbs doomsday prophecy.

maze's ramblings.

Larsinger58

mrfalcon Mr. Falcon. Great topic with lots of thoughts here. Thanks for posting this.

This is one of those things where on off concept gets repeated and then everyone reflects on that inaccurate viewpoint, so I hope you don't mind if I get a bit direct here and start from scratch; also to save words.

1. Think of the discussion at Matthew 24 as being directed to a specific audience, that is, the Jews. In their mind, they were under gentile rule. They knew this was punishment for leaving God's covenant. It was forefront in their minds that they would be under gentile rule for an appointed time. They understood what the "appointed times of the nations" was. They also knew, generally, that the messiah would arrive immediately after the nation of Israel was restored; that is, after the fig tree again began to blossom. So in their minds, the end of the gentile times and the return of the messiah were two closely connected events. To them, the"system of things" was specifically the current condition under which they existed in terms of gentile rule. So when they spoke of the "end of the sytem of things" and when that would occur, they were asking when would the "appointed times of the nations" end. That's the "end" they were concerned about. The end of gentile rule and the restoration of rule by the Jews over their own homeland. Thus the "end of the world" or the "end of the present system of things" was a good thing for them. Something they were looking forward to. When would they rule their own land again?

So they were not talking about the "end of the world" as we know it, that is Armageddon. So that's the first misconception that needs to be cleared up. The "end of the system of things" was not about Armageddon or the concept of the end of the world as the doomsday folks are representing, but specifically the "END OF THE APPOINTED TIMES OF THE NATIONS."

So again, the Jewish mindset, once the State of Israel was set up, then they were to expect the messiah to be "near at the doors."

So jumping ahead now, the DIRECT FUFILLMENT of Matthew 24:14 about the "good news" being preached worldwide and then the "end" would come, was fulfilled in 1947 when NH Knorr did a worldwide speaking engagement. That is the objective fulfillment, that literal worldwide speaking engagement. The subjective fulfillment is that it proved the "good news" preached by JWs had reached around the world by 1947.

After this, the "end" did occur. That is, the end of the gentile times, the end of gentile rule, the end of Jewish exile, the end of a time when the Jews did not have their homeland again. That "end" occurred on November 30, 1947 when the UN's "Partition Agreement" went into effect, giving the Jews their own country again in Palestine.

So the "end" is over. It was over in 1947. Now let me just quote that event for the sake of the record:

From the Proclaimer's book, chapter 8, page 98:

With a view to worldwide expansion, on February 6, 1947, the Society’s president and his secretary, Milton G. Henschel, embarked on a 47,795-mile [76,916km] world service tour. The trip took them to islands of the Pacific, New Zealand, Australia, Southeast Asia, India, the Middle East, the Mediterranean area, Central and Western Europe, Scandinavia, England, and Newfoundland. It was the first time since 1933 that representatives of the Society’s headquarters staff in Brooklyn had been able to visit their brothers in Germany. Jehovah’s Witnesses around the world followed the two travelers as reports of the trip were published in issues of TheWatchtower throughout 1947.

That's the direct fulfillment of Mattew 24:14.

ANOTHER SPECIFIC, THE GREAT TRIBULATION: Now, having noted that, you must pay close attention to what the Bible says. Matthew 24:29 clearly notes one of the signs leading up to the second coming what this tribulation, a time that never occurred before nor would occur again. But it notes this tribulation was completely over before the "sign of the son of man" would appear in the heavens, declaring the messiah had arrived. VERY IMPORTANT to focus on this. That is, this specific, one-time tribulation associated with the end times is completely ended before the second coming, keeping in mind the second coming does not occur before the State of Israel is reborn:

" 29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in lamentation.."

Okay. Take a moment. Take a deep breath and take this in. This one-time event, this great tribulation like none other that had occurred is over before the messiah arrives. Since the messiah does not arrive until after the State of Israel is set up, then this tribulation is also over before the State of Israel is set up. That is, the messiah arrives shortly after the tribulation, but also shortly after the State of Israel is set up.

So please note this "great tribulation" is NOT Armageddon. What it is, is the HOLOCAUST. Please note, therefore, that the WTS is clueless in this regard. They conceive this great tribulation is part of Armageddon but it is not. So please THINK THIS THROUGH.

Will Armageddon be an event where women with small children will be disadvantaged whereas women without children will have a better chance for survival? O no! Armageddon is going to get you if you are wicked. There is no hiding!! But in the context of the Holocaust, indeed, if you escaped out of the Jewish ghettos before they were sealed off you could literally hide out in the wilderness and the mountains nearby, which many did. But you can't bring crying little children with you hoping to hide out from the Nazis. So this is LITERAL. This is a time when women would hate their children because they could not flee blamelessly to the wilderness to hide out. Women with children had to stay and die with their children.

So I'm going to stop here. I could fill in all the details for you how the Bible prophecies are fulfilled with the correct understanding. But at this point I just want you to leave room for the idea that your concept of the "last days" is probably distorted and non-Biblical.

SUMMARY:

1. The "end of the system of things" is not Armageddon/end of the world/doomsday. It is specifically the end of the gentile times, which ended on Novemver 30, 1947.

2. The "good news" was literally preached world wide earlier that year in a worldwide speaking tour by NH Knorr to signal that the "end of the gentile times" would soon follow, which it did. That is the literal fulfillment of Matthew 24:14 about the "good news" being preached world wide and then the end would come, that is, again, the end of gentile rule over the Jewish promised lands.

3. The one-time tribulation of Matthew 24 is not Armageddon, but the HOLOCAUST and WWII. This "tribulation" is OVER before the messiah arrives and just before the State of Israel is reborn. So that is very much fulfilled. The Holocaust was over, technically, in late 1944. The end of the war occurred in the Spring of 1945. But it was prophesied the "days would be cut short" or no flesh of the "holy ones" (the natural Jews) would be saved. Zech 13:8 shows two-thirds of the Jews would pass away during this tribulaton and 1/3 remnant would be preserved. Thus six million out of nine million Jews were to be exterminated during this tribulation. The tribulation was to last 7 years from 1940-1947. But by late 1944 six million Jews had already been exterminated. So those days and WWII was cut short so that no more than 2/3rds of the Jews would die. Had Hitler had his way and prevailed, he would have killed every Jew and half Jew in the entire world. So the tribulation ended a bit early, the but official end of exile and end of the gentile times ended on time in 1947. Soon after that the State of Israel was set up in the Spring of 1948, then the pre-messiah, that is the individual into whose body the Christ would dwell in the flesh at the second coming was born in early 1950. At that time, the "sign of the son of man" began to appear to te "eagles." "Wherever the body is, so the eagles would be gathered together."

So as part of your general discussion about the end times, with all the commentors here, with very relevant comments and question, I don't see anybody trying to figure out who the EAGLES are and what that means. So part of understanding the entire pricture is giving some attention to that as well. Who are the "eagles"? Hmmmm? That is supposed to be fulfilled as well too, right? "Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together"? What is THAT supposed to mean? Well, we need to give that some concern too as well, aren't we? Sure. It's part of what is supposed to be happening in connection with Christ.

So again, I'm seeing a lot of confusion and questions and pondering and comments but only about one distorted aspect based on a misconception, but no real focus on who he "eagles" are and what it means that they are surrounding the body of Christ. ???

So, yes! Let's ask questions and discuss. But let's discuss the WHOLE PICTURE of the second coming, not just some aspect of it. Let's discuss who these "eagles" might be. That's important too, right?

Thanks again for bringing out this interesting discussion that many have found purposeful reflection. The best I can offer in the short term is that the correct interpretation of the Bible provides absolute fulfillment and absolute truth. But that is something apparently in the domain of a few chosen ones.

Regards,

LS

14

June 2011 Watchtower & Poverty (public edition)

by FrankWTower in

i have a part this week about the june awake & watchtower.

after reading some of the paragraphs in the watchtower, i have this opinion to share:.

i really wish the wt would stop trying to teach witnesses about their biased views of history and economic theory.

Larsinger58

Interesting. Thanks for sharing this concept.

LS

33

Do the Harold Campings of the world make witnesses question their own beliefs?

by dgp in

now that harold camping has been proven wrong again, er, the rapture is taking place at another date because he is an imperfect man, one question that comes to my mind is whether this kind of fiascos ever make active jehovah's witness connect the dots and realize they have been deceived as well.. also, i wonder if active witnesses ever get to think that if unbelievers were right about not believing camping, maybe they are also right about something else?

perhaps relying on reason is not that misguided after all?.

i would love to see your opinions on this.. .

Larsinger58

I think he's just a loser and is perceived as a false prophet among common JWs.

Actually, he is Jehovah's prophet and so is OBVES. Jehovah used him to focus on 2011 as he used the Bible Students to focus on 1874 and 1914, even though the full understanding was not given.

So in reflection, Camping's prediction is very much parallel to 1914, where you have some added expectations to a critical date but only part of the application is fulfilled. That is, 1914 is not the "end of the gentile times" (i.e. 1947) and not the end of "7 times" and thus the 2nd coming (i.e. occurred in 1992); but it is the beginning of a generation that begins with a world war in 1914 and ends in 1994. The second coming and all the signs did occur within that 80-year generation. Highlights are:

1. The "great tribulation" for 7 years though cut short after 434 years, 62 weeks. The 70 weeks of the 2nd coming was from 1506 to 1996 and so the "cut off" which begins the great tribulation after 62 weeks would begin in 1940:

1506 + 434 = 1940

1 weeks of tribulation is 1940-1947

But the days were "cut short". Thus the HOLOCAUST was cut short to the Spring of 1945, or else all the Jews, the "holy ones" would have been exterminated. The Bible prophesied 2/3rds would pass through the fire (Zech 13:8) and that ratio was reached by the end of 1994; six million Jews out of nine million, just as the Bible prophesied.

2. Then the "fig tree" blossoming again, meaning the State of Israel would be reestablished, just before the messiah appears and is "near at the doors." That would come on the heels of the great tribulation, which was the Holocaust. So, indeed, on November 30, 1947, the Jews were given their country back.

3. Of course, the appearance of the "sign of the son of man" when the messiah is first born was fulfilled in January 1950. The messiah is tested for 40 years and thus up into 1989 when he appears at the beginning of the 70th week. He becomes anointed as the messiah at mid-week in 1992-1993.

So all that was fulfilled, yet the WTS, which clearly was the "temple in its right condition" from 1886-1996 did not fully understand all the particulars any more than Camping did. Though Camping is coming around.

After the seeming "failure" of May 21st, though, he said exactly the right thing. That this was a "symbolic" or technical day of judgment. That's the right concept since even in Noah's Day, the door of the Ark was closed by Jehovah some 7 days before the actual destruction started. So May 21, 2011 is still significant as the day of "judgment", just as 1874 correctly marks the beginning of Christ's PAROUSIA, when "Michael stands up" (Daniel 12:1), and 1914 is still accurate as the beginning of the last generation of 80 years from 1914-1994 which would see all the signs fulfilled, including the great tribulation, which was the Holocaust.

The IRONY IS, it seems those called into the light are the ones who understand how accurately the Bible has been fulfilled, whereas the majority, including the WTS, who are in darkness are cluess and so nothing works and so they think the Bible isn't true, when it is most absolutely true.

Those who give up on the Bible too soon loose out. Harold Camping did not lose his faith and he accurately understands now the significance of May 21st.

Jehovah has abandoned the WTS who are now worthless and so what we see is God choosing Camping to sound the warning about the coming end of the world by the God of the Bible, with May 21st as a significant date of "cut off" or judgment for the world. Camping understands this so well, that he is no longer preaching, just using his vast radio network to play Christian music.

The warning might be lost to the world at large, but not to the JIOR or the spiritually chosen. As I said, from my standpoint, it is clear Jehovah used Camping and his vast radio network to sound this warning since the witnesses are OUT! So Camping also proves that Jehovah can carry out his purpose without the apostate WTS.

The WTS is a good to the witnesses and they emphasize how they need to stay with this organization for salvation. Camping has no church! He says the "chuch age" is over! He encourages individual relationship with God! That's 10 times better than what the WTS is encouraging. So while we are comparing the two, notice how Camping is not setting himself up to be followed blindly! He dismiss ALL organized religion. This is the time for that. Time to leave the "broad road" of organized religion and go do the narrow path of invidiuality. Camping is not trying to make himself a god like the GB is. So from a spiritual point of view, though Jehovah is complicating things, there is hardly a comparison who is more approved by Jehovah.

Keep in mind, Camping still thinks the trinity is Biblical and he hasn't recognize me as the messiah yet. But that doesn't seem to matter. What mattered was a focus on May 21st as a day of judgment which provided a LEGAL WARNING to the wicked. So that is consistent with eveything that has been occurring since 1947.

IT'S COMPLEX! This is complex. It is very difficult for non-believers to follow this. But it was clear Jehovah was using Camping. His concept of the "end of the church age" is high-level. The actual end was in 1996 though Camping things 1994. Still, that is profoundly inspired! I knew the chronology was wrong for the Flood, I knew there was not going to be any "rapture" and certainly the trinity is wrong, still God was using Camping to focus on this date. He did an amazing job! He got mentioned in the mainstream media so I consider that a successful "notice."

So it's just FUN TIMES for the JIOR at this point. We are waiting on more surprises by Jehovah as he brings all this world to an end. All the while the WTS looking on and knowing they are OUT! They are liars and false prophets but are rebelliously still trying to deceive the deceivable. They are opposed to me being the Christ, that is, God's choice of ME. I'm nothing.

LS

46

God: the central question

by ixthis in

of all the issues affecting every person's picture of reality, nothing is more fundamental than questions about god.. is there one god, creator and sovereign of all?could there be more than one god?

or no god at all?if there is a god (or gods), then what is that god (or gods) like?nothing determines your worldview-and the course of your life-more than how you answer those questions.

yet some atheists like to make light of the god question.

Larsinger58

Interesting, but I'm extremely fortunate. Because I'm the messiah, I got to have a personal interview with Jehovah himself. Therefore, I'm immune to skeptics who base their non-belief in God because they haven't seen him. Well fine. But in my case, I have SEEN him so I'm not a doubter. I can answer some of those questions.

Who is God? There is one God-Creator and he is the God of the Bible.

He is soon to delight atheists at Armageddon when he will wear the hat of the angry, genocidal god who comes and destroys the majority of the population as he did in Noah's day, including children. But, of course, the children of the righteous will be saved. The children of the wicked are considered part of their wicked parents so are destroyed. Them's the rules!

I know I'm unique and everyone can enjoy the assurance of a view of the world from my plane, but it is rather know to know for sure whether there is a God or not or if the Bible is true. That's a nice gift I get, one of the great "perks", for being chosen as the 2nd coming physical messiah!

LS