Posts by Larsinger58

5

Is the Bible based on astrology ?

by mP in

7 & 12..

Larsinger58

This topic has many layers. But the Bible says the solar system and heavens were designed for timekeeping. What some put under the general category of "astrology" actual had a lot of astronomy. We have many astronomical texts that are strictly observations with no astrological reference. Most of the astrological references were handled separately.

But the Bible does link some astronomy with Christ and true worship. In general, Christ is represented by the Sun and his wife, the church, the moon. The moon is beautiful, but its light comes from the Sun.

Some have said that the 12 tribes of Israel are based on pagani astrology, by the 12 zodiac signs are based on astronomy. So God intended the concept of the 12 months of the year, etc. integral in the solar system and the earth's orbit and rotation. So it is fundamental. Ancients worshipped the sun but it doesn't mean they created the sun or that the sun is no more than a pagan god or goddess.

87

Bible Writers not just ignorant "goat herders"

by applehippie in

really, the bible was written by nothin' but goat herders?

i don't post much but this does irk me.

yes a few may have been shepherds or fisherman, but a fair amount were far more educated and were professionals in their fields of occupation.

Larsinger58

Also, even though this is not ancient history, but apparently the concept of charging interest for loans is fascinating. The gospels talk about BANKS! My concept and I think a general concept of banks is that it is a modern invention, but apparently it was around a long time ago. Banking and charging interest is not such a modern invention.

87

Bible Writers not just ignorant "goat herders"

by applehippie in

really, the bible was written by nothin' but goat herders?

i don't post much but this does irk me.

yes a few may have been shepherds or fisherman, but a fair amount were far more educated and were professionals in their fields of occupation.

Larsinger58

I want to share another example of Bible vs. secular history that I was very impressed by.

Most Bible scholars don't realize that there was a six-year co-rulership between Ahab and his son, Jehoram. When the Bible says Jehoram "became king" in the 5th year of Jehoram of Judah who became king in the second year of Jehoram of Israel. That meant that Jehoram became king again in his own sixth year. That, in turn, meant that he was co-ruler with his father Ahab who died in his sixth year.

This helps us understand a statement in the Moabite stone that says that the king of Moab rebelled against the "king of Israel" in the middle of his reign. The Bible says the king of Moab rebelled after the death of Ahab. Now some think this represents a conflict. But Jehoram ruled for 12 years. So the reference is accurate and confirmatory. That is, that Jehoram ruled for 12 years and that Ahab died in his sixth year, confirming a 6-year co-rulership. This is specific confirmation of the Bible's history with that of an interacting pagan culture. This also means the Moabites could write as well.

But also of note, among all the Bible scholars, including the WTS, how to align the co-rulerships correctly is not well understood. n fact, the WTS apparently didn't want to deal with it as all and created a timeline based on the Judean kings which meant there were many gaps in the Israelite kingships, which there were not. So the "ignorance" is not of those ancient peoples as much as our ignorance and understanding of their cultures.

87

Bible Writers not just ignorant "goat herders"

by applehippie in

really, the bible was written by nothin' but goat herders?

i don't post much but this does irk me.

yes a few may have been shepherds or fisherman, but a fair amount were far more educated and were professionals in their fields of occupation.

Larsinger58

Interesting how "ignorant" people are of ancient history and what presumptions are made.

I've studied a lot of ancient history, of course, and one of the things I was very impressed with was the Amarna Period. During that time, Egypt was in power and was protectorate of its vassal city-states in Canaan. There was extensive communication between the pharaoh and everybody else in the empire. The letters are fascinating. Egypt had a policy of having the royals of all the other countries under its influence being educated in Egypt. But a lot of the letters were not written in Egyptian by in Canaanite, the same linguistic style the Hebrews used. I suppose this had a lot to do with the fact that two mothers of the 12 sons of Israel were Canaanite.

But there was evidence of writing and reading before then. Case in point, Judah, who slept with his daughter-in-law, Tamar, who posed as a prostitute. Once you start to study the ancient cultures you learn more details and get a more accurate and precise knowledge of what actually was going on. In any case, apparently the practice of temple prostitution was more like a membership drive than a bake sale. The idea was to get membership in the Baal cult. So as a requirement for using the prostitutes, the clients had to become "members" of Baal, as it were, and were given personal items testifying to that, like a ring or a rod and cord. On these items were engraved their name and a statement saying "I belong to Baal." So that is what Tamar presented to Judah when he was about to burn her for being a pagan temple prostitute. It showed his hypocrisy since she knew using the prostitutes wasn't just an opportunity to relieve sexual tension, it involved the pagan worship. Even so, it was interesting the prostiutes could write on these items, if only having a basic knowledge of the written language.

My concern is that the average concept of literacy in ancient times seems to be downgraded to less than it really was. I mean, think about David who wrote the psalms. Some are organized based on the Jewish alphabet. So what people presume and what they know is sometimes two very different things. After all, didn't God himself write the ten commandments?

47

ONLY 500 DAYS REMAINING until the 100th Anniversary of Jesus reign...

by Calebs Airplane in

lurkers.... check your calendars... october 2, 2014 is only 500 days away.... look for illogical nu-lite from the wt in publications and conventions that will attempt to explain this away.. they've already bought themselves some time by splitting a "generation" into 2 overlapping generations... still, they have a lot of explaining to do... this should get really interesting... stay tuned.... .

Larsinger58

HEAVEN: Well this was an epic failure, being that there are 7 billion people on the Earth and only 2.5 billion of them are Christians. Something went horribly awry.

LARS:

Good point, Heaven. But the context of the parable of the dragnet focusses on the harvesting work among the nations of Christendom. In the Bible, Christendom is represented by the "sea" and the WTS or Jehovah's recognized temple and the Bible are represented by the "earth." Thus the 666-beast is seen coming out of the "sea" represents the trinity doctrine belief by Christendom (i.e. 666 = three numbers yet one number). The Lamb-dragon beast seen coming out of the "earth" represents those associated with God's temple, which would mean the WTS.

Likewise, the dragnet represents the preaching wok done by JWs who cast their nets out into the sea and bring in fish which they dump on the beach. The beach represents the WTS. At that point the good fish are separated from the bad fish. This separation is the same as when christ comes to separate the sheep from the goats in this one particular flock, as well as the division of the five wise virgins and the five foolish virgins. This only means that everyone coming into the WTS is not automatically chosen and accepted. Some are true wheat and some are weeds.

Even so, it would seem the actual fulfillment of preaching the good news throughout the nations would be a reference to those nations who are Christians specifically, just as the 1st Century Christians while Jesus was alive were just sent to the Jews. So nothing is "horribly awry" here -- this was fulfilled as prophesied. It depends on interpretation.

But by specific note, when the Bible says the "good news" would be preached worldwide and "then the end would come" -- that was specifically fulfilled in 1947 when N.H. Knorr literally went on a worldwide preaching compaign. Later that year on November 30, 1947, the "end of the gentile times" occurred when the Jews were restored to their homeland. So the "end" is not Armageddon but the end of the gentile times which ended on November 30, 1947. And that very year the "good news" was preached worldwide by NH Knorr, fulfilling this prophecy specifically, but also generally, since that event showed the witness work had spread worldwide by this time, having started with just one congregation less than a century earlier.

All is well -- if you have he right interpretation.

Kingdom Proclamation Surges Ahead
With a view to worldwide expansion, on February 6, 1947, the Society’s president and his secretary, Milton G. Henschel, embarked on a 47,795-mile [76,916 km] world service tour. The trip took them to islands of the Pacific, New Zealand, Australia, Southeast Asia, India, the Middle East, the Mediterranean area, Central and Western Europe, Scandinavia, England, and Newfoundland. It was the first time since 1933 that representatives of the Society’s headquarters staff in Brooklyn had been able to visit their brothers in Germany. Jehovah’s Witnesses around the world followed the two travelers as reports of the trip were published in issues of The Watchtower throughout 1947.
(Proclaimers, p. 98)

47

ONLY 500 DAYS REMAINING until the 100th Anniversary of Jesus reign...

by Calebs Airplane in

lurkers.... check your calendars... october 2, 2014 is only 500 days away.... look for illogical nu-lite from the wt in publications and conventions that will attempt to explain this away.. they've already bought themselves some time by splitting a "generation" into 2 overlapping generations... still, they have a lot of explaining to do... this should get really interesting... stay tuned.... .

Larsinger58

mP:

Armageddon occured on 13 Jan 1834. 13 from the apostles of Jesus, there is one god, 18 children of Ruth, 3 sons of jacob of giza and 4 sons of aaron. Its all basic stuff really.

LARS:

Armageddon cannot occur until after the 8th world power takes over; the 8th world power is the U.N. who takes over immediately after it destroys Babylon the Great, which is the "Illuminati" and Freemasonry influence over the UN. So when the UN takes over world government and outlaws the Federal Reserve and the CFR and the World Bank and the CIA, then you can expect Armageddon within a "time and season" which means a year and 3-4 months later, if not sooner. It's all basic stuff really.

47

ONLY 500 DAYS REMAINING until the 100th Anniversary of Jesus reign...

by Calebs Airplane in

lurkers.... check your calendars... october 2, 2014 is only 500 days away.... look for illogical nu-lite from the wt in publications and conventions that will attempt to explain this away.. they've already bought themselves some time by splitting a "generation" into 2 overlapping generations... still, they have a lot of explaining to do... this should get really interesting... stay tuned.... .

Larsinger58

1914 was an invisible presence of Jesus Christ , hang on, wasnt it 1874 ? an invisible presence of Jesus Christ ? or am I mistaken ! I could be .1888 or somewhere about that date wasn`t that the end of 6000 years of humans existence on earth ? according to WT chronology ? And then that was changed to 1975 ,so can we see a change of the 1914 date before the 100th Anniversary ? It wouldnt surprise me .

smiddy

Per another interpretation, 1874 begins a generation of 120 years from 1874-1994, and 1914 begins an 80-year generation from 1914-1994. So both dates are still relevant. though not fully understood.

"Presence" is probably a poor concept that is lost in translation. In Jesus' day, a person's "parousia" was a long procession into a city by a high official where the official himself appears at the very last. So you could say his arrival began when the procession began into town. So we can call his "presence" the period of time the procession begins and his actual "arrival" the time when the dignitary actually arrives himself.

In regards to Christ, there is some direct preparation that must begin to prepare for his actual arrival. These preparations would occur within a generation of 120 years and 80 years. In reference to Christ's activities, therefore, he is pictured as waiting and sitting at the right hand of God in an inactive state until a generation before he is to return to the earth in the flesh. Thus 1874 would mark the time when "Michael stands up" (Daniel 12:1), that is, when Christ begins to actively begin activities that would lead directly to his 2nd coming before 1994.

So technically, if the direct activity of Christ in preparation of the second coming occurs within a generation of 180 years that began in 1874, it could be said that his "invisible presence [or parousia]" did, indeed, begin in 1874. Further, since the "last generation" of 80 years was to begin with a world war, i.e. "nation against nation and kingdom against kingdom," then 1914 will remain the critical year we begin that last generation of 80 years within Christ's "parousia" that officially began in 1874.

But his ARRIVAL, the actual date of the 2nd coming is not the same as his "parousia" specifically. His arrival is a specific year linked to three prophecies:

1) The "7 times" prophecy, of course, understood by JWs to be 2520 years from the fall of Jerusalem. 607 BCE is not correct for several reasons and 587 BCE is incorrect because of distortion of the timeline by the Persians. The Biblical date for the 1st of Cyrus based on Jesus' baptism in 29 CE is 455 BCE. Add 70 years to arrive at year 23 of Nebuchadnezzar II in 525 BCE, the year of the last deportation when the 70 years of exile/desolation begins. That means the fall of Jerusalem, per the Bible, would occur in 529 BCE, year 19 of Nebuchadnezzar II. In that case and per that interpretation, the 2nd coming would occur in 1992. The critical significance of that is that 1992 does occur slightly before the end of the 120-year and the 80-year generations which both end in 1994!

2) The "1335 days" prophecy dates the 2nd coming 45 years after the "end of the gentile times" and thus 45 years after 1947. November 30, 1947 ends the "1290 days" or the trampling of Jerusalem and the exile of the Jews. 1290 + 45 = 1335; 1947 + 45 = 1992. So same year as above.

3) Christ must fulfill the 70th week at both his 1st and 2nd coming. Thus the 70-week periods are fixed by Jesus' first coming in 29-36 CE. 4 x 490 = 1960; 1960 + 36 = 1996. So the 70th week of the 2nd coming would be from 1989-1996. Christ dies in the middle of the week at the 1st coming, thus fulfilling the first half of the 70th week. Christ ends the Lord's Supper in the middle of the 70th week of the 2nd coming. Mid-week Passover of 1989-1996 occurs on April 6, 1993. So Christ would arrive within less than a year of the Passover of April 6, 1993. April 6, 1993 was thus the first and last passover/Lord's SupperChrist would eat after his arrival. Even so, when you calculate the year of Christ's return via the "70 weeks" prophecy, you get the same year, 1992-1993.

Now the Bible says, "Nobody knows the DAY nor HOUR." But apparently that is specific, since we can determine the MONTH and YEAR of the second coming. Based on the above, Christ, in order to fulfill all prophecies, must arrive no earlier than November 30, 1992 but no later than April 6, 1993. This doesn't give us the DAY nor HOUR, but it narrows down the MONTH and YEAR!

Question is, did Christ fulfill this chronology? The answer is YES! The second coming occurred 3.5 days after the winter solstice of December 21, 1992, also as prophesied. That is, the 2nd coming occurred on December 25, 1992. December 25, 2013 will mark 21 years after the actual 2nd coming.

Now I'm not "preaching" this for others to believe, but merely sharing what some XJWs who are among the faithful anointed believe and understand. The WTS, as prophesied, have become the "man of lawlessness" now and thus are apostate and now in spiritual darkness. So true light will come from others at this point.

47

ONLY 500 DAYS REMAINING until the 100th Anniversary of Jesus reign...

by Calebs Airplane in

lurkers.... check your calendars... october 2, 2014 is only 500 days away.... look for illogical nu-lite from the wt in publications and conventions that will attempt to explain this away.. they've already bought themselves some time by splitting a "generation" into 2 overlapping generations... still, they have a lot of explaining to do... this should get really interesting... stay tuned.... .

Larsinger58

Jeffro:

As soon as someone insists that something "has to" fall at a particular time in order for some magical thing to happen, you can safely conclude that the person saying it is wrong.

Lars:

Hi Jeff. Your statement makes no sense, since the fulfillment of the chronology is conditional. It is a test. It is either fulfilled per the interpretation or not. Case in point, the "great tribulation" that would see two-thirds of the Jews exterminated when 62 weeks begin the "cut off." If you calculate 70-week periods from 36 CE, then the 70 weeks during our time occur from 1506 to 1996. 62 weeks is 434 years and so the "cut off" which would begin the "great tribulation" would begin in 1940 and last one week until 1947. So if that is the correct interpretation for when the "great tribulation" would begin with the main focus on Jews during which time two-thirds of the Jewish population would be exterminated, then we only need to examine history to see if that interpretation was fulfilled. Indeed, between 1940-1947 six million out of nine million Jews died in the Holocaust.

Same with the 2nd coming, which must fulfill the 70th week. The 70th week for the period of 1506-1996 is 1989-1996. So the question is did Christ return in the flesh during that period? The answer is YES! That is, for those of us who have the correct interpretation of the manner of Christ's return, which is in an imperfect man's body.

So being "wrong" or right is a test question which we can apply since these are past events now. Now YOU personally don't believe any of this is fulfilled because you either don't believe the Bible or don't agree with this specific interpretation. But others of us out here who have a different interpretation and those who know I became the Christ see all this being fulfilled with amazing accuracy. Now either I'm right or wrong. I have proof I'm right because I'm part of the fulfillment. You'll have proof I'm right when Armageddon starts or when some other event gives you no choice but to accept the reality of God, the Bible and Bible prophecy. Now granted, all this is hard to believe. But God purposefully makes it hard for non-believers to believe by blinding their minds so that they cannot believe even if they are explained everything in detail...

ACTS 13:41 "Behold it, you scorners, and wonder at it, and vanish away, because I am working a work in your days, a work that you will by no means believe even if anyone relates it to you in detail."

47

ONLY 500 DAYS REMAINING until the 100th Anniversary of Jesus reign...

by Calebs Airplane in

lurkers.... check your calendars... october 2, 2014 is only 500 days away.... look for illogical nu-lite from the wt in publications and conventions that will attempt to explain this away.. they've already bought themselves some time by splitting a "generation" into 2 overlapping generations... still, they have a lot of explaining to do... this should get really interesting... stay tuned.... .

Larsinger58

mP:

jesus was talking about the temple being destroyed in 70AD. Given the gospels were all written after this, its not prophecy but a warning. Jesus is telling the jews to give up in their fight against Rome. That "end' did happen, they got punished for trying the impossible.

LARS:

Hi mP. A reasonable first-glance application, but you have to deal with Luke 21:24 where the destruction of Jerusalem is specifically mentioned after which the "appointed times of the nations" would continue:

"24 and they will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations, until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled."

So the visual here links the Jews going into exile with the trampling of Jerusalem and the continuation of the "appointed times of the nations" which is the system of things of the so-called "gentile times." Thus another interpretation is that the "gentile times" would end when the Jews are again in charge of their own homeland. Thus on November 30, 1947 when the Partition Agreement returned the Jews to their homeland and they had their own country again, thus officially not being in exile any more, then the "appointed times of the nations" could said to have ended at that time.

Also it doesn't matter if Luke and much of the rest of the NT was written after these events, because per the Bible John and Paul, specifically, never died. In fact, they are both still alive today. Noting that, it is reasonable to think they were involved in shepherding the development of the NT that we have today, even if this was behind the scenes.

In addition, in the JW cult setting, preterism has zero resonance because of the chronology. The WTS believes the 2nd coming occurs in a specific year based on the date for the fall of Jersualem. Even though revisionism affects a clear-cut date for the fall of Jerusalem, the primary focal dates of 607 BCE (JWs), 587 BCE (secular) or 529 BCE (Biblical) all would occur during the 20th Century. Plus, while a generation of 80 years is suggested for all the events mentioned from 1914-1994, another application could apply to the generation of Jesus' day, which included Paul and John who never died. So that generation of his day did not pass away yet completely. He returned in 1992.

So "this generation" has two applications: 1) 80 years from 1914 to 1994, where the 2nd coming must occur prior to the end of that generation before 1994, which it did. 2) The generation of Jesus' time from the 1st Century, some of whom would never die and thus still be alive at the time of his return in 1992.

So it really depends on interpretation. For those who think "the end" is Armageddon, of course, they think the Bible isn't being fulfilled or the Bible just is not true. But if you realize the "great tribulation" was the Holocaust and "the end" is a reference to the end of the gentile times, then all has been fulfilled as prophesied.

October 1992 marked the beginning of the secular year of the 2nd coming. October of 2013 would end the 21st year since that event. That is a period of three weeks of 7 years each. Not sure that will be of any chronological significance.

47

ONLY 500 DAYS REMAINING until the 100th Anniversary of Jesus reign...

by Calebs Airplane in

lurkers.... check your calendars... october 2, 2014 is only 500 days away.... look for illogical nu-lite from the wt in publications and conventions that will attempt to explain this away.. they've already bought themselves some time by splitting a "generation" into 2 overlapping generations... still, they have a lot of explaining to do... this should get really interesting... stay tuned.... .

Larsinger58

As far as the "last generation" is concerned, it was fulfilled!

The last generation of 80 years from 1914-1994 would see two important things:

1) The END, meaning the end of the gentile times, which occurred on November 30, 1947.

2) The 2nd coming, which occurs in 1992. The 2nd coming must fulfill the 70th week like the first coming, which was from 29-36 CE. The first coming fulfills the first half of the 70th week, the 2nd coming the second half. Thus Christ arrives in the middle of the 70th week at the 2nd coming. 70 weeks is 490 years and 4 x 490 = 1960. Add 36 CE to 1960 and the 70th week during our time which is the time of the 2nd coming ends in 1996. (1960 + 36 = 1996). That means the 70th week of the second coming is 1989-1996. The mid-week passover occurs on April 6, 1993. That means christ would have to arrive within less than a year of April 6, 1993 and thus sometime in 1992-1993. That means Jerusalem has to fall in 529 BCE and not 607 BCE or 587 BCE. But the VAT4956, which has dating to the original year 37 of Nebuchadnezzar II in 511 BCE, dates year 19 in 529 BCE. So we now have an independent reference to what the original timeline was, leaving no excuses for when to date the 2nd coming. 1992 occurs during the 70th week so the Bible is fulfilled if you have the right interpretation. If you don't, it seems the Bible has failed and like the WTS, there is a desperate effort to stretch out and overlap "generations" to make their false teachings seem true.

The "end" is the end of the gentile times which happened in 1947. Armageddon thus does not have to occur before the end of a generation of 80 years from 1914-1994. This has already been fulfilled. The end of the gentile times occurred in 1947, the 2nd coming in 1992, both events prior to 1994 as prophesied!