Posts by Larsinger58

7

What to do in this "Time of the End" Estephan

by Este in

simply stated:.

9you must pray, then, this way:.

our father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified.10let your kingdom come.

Who REALLY IS the Faithful and Discreet Slave?

by TimothyT in

im 23 and im still a jw.

the jehovahs witnesses claim that god is using their earthly organisation in the last days!

im realy not too sure.

The actual answer is the fact that there is a Biblical Christian "temple" sect that is supposed to appear after "2300 evenings and monrings" that is 1150 years into the final 1260 years of the covenant that end in 1996. That means this special "temple" sect would appear in 1886 and function until 1196. That is:

36 CE ends the 70th week of 70 weeks, beginning 455 BCE and ending 36 CE. This establishes the sequence of covenant weeks.

70 weeks = 490 years

4 x 490 = 1960

1960 + 36 CE = 1996 AD

Thus in 1996 AD the covenant Period ends for both Jews and Christians. That specifically includes the "temple" sect that appears in 1886.

If you maintain the concept that a "slave" is in charge of a sect or cult or ministry, then we learn from the parable of the ten slaves sent out with silver money to do business, that Christ gathers in many places. In fact, he says specifically after removing his "little flock" that he has "other sheep not of this fold." So even though that temple sect, like the tribe of Levi, was chosen to perform special, high-level spiritual tasks, it is not the only "chosen' group. It is only one of many others.

However, looking at other scriptures we find this "temple" organization would have an ego problem among its leaders. They would rise up in God's temple of public anointed ones and make itself a god. This is the "man of lawlessness" mentioned at 2 Thess 2:3,4. So the irony is, whichever organization is the true temple in its right condition after 2300 evenings and mornings is the same sect that becomes the evil slave organization and produces the man of lawlessness.

So that's the dilemma of the WTS. It knows it is the chosen temple sect, the sect that would preach the "good news" and the sect that would be the target of Gog of Magog (German Nazis) alongside God's other "holy ones", the natural Jews. Case in point, when Matthew speaks of the "love of the greater number cooling off", it is speaking of the natural Jews and the growth of antisemitism leading up to the Holocaust, which was the first "great tribulation" (of Matthew, not Revelation. One tribulation occurs before and the other after the second coming). Of note, Jews and JWs were targets of the "disgusting thing that causes desolation" which is Nazism. If the Jews are the "greater number" then the "lesser number" is a reference to the Christian holy ones. There was a reason JWs were targets of the Nazis along with the Jews. They fulfill how the disgusting thing stands in the holy place, that is, attacks the holy ones, who are Jews and JWs.

Here's a video you might find helpful that elaborates on this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnTy8_EhE0Y

They also specifically full that the good news would be preached world wide first, and then the "end" will come. The end is not Armageddon. The end is the end of the gentile times which ended on November 30, 1947. That very year, then president N.H. Knorr did go on a literal around-the-globe speaking tour, thus fulfilling that when the good news was preached world wide, the end would then come. And it did.

So there is no getting around JWs being the "temple" sect, but only one slave out of many who gather in God's approved elect. Even so, this temple of anointed ones would become corrupted apostasy and when Christ comes he has to separate out the sheep from the goats. These sheep separated out represent the "wise virgins" and the "little flock." To them he says, "I have other sheep, not of this fold." This slave organization, JWs, are thus many times referenced as the "evil slave" and the "sluggish slave" or the "man of lawlessness" or the "false prophet." All these refer to the WTS after they became apostate.

The GB was "disfellowshipped" by Jehovah on November 20, 1992. They are now in spiritual darkness and headed to the lake of fire like the rest of Christendom.

Of note, in 1886, the first Studies in the Scriptures appeared. This volume series became the doctrinal foundation of the Bible Students who later became known as JWs.

So Who really is the FDS? It is Jesus Christ. JC appears 45 days after the GB is disfellowshipped, that is, identified. This fulfills 2 Thess 2:3 "Let no one seduce you in any manner, because it will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness gets revealed, the son of destruction."

So the second coming does not come until after the man of lawlessness is revealed. He was revealed on November 10, 1992. 45 days later on December 25, 1992 is when the second coming took place. They were revealed by a direct leter to them that they were being cast out and that they fulfilled being the evil slave. This letter was sent by one of the anointed who called himself "The Watchman." Likely F. Franz and the WTS figured this person would become the messiah so assisted the UN in trying to prevent the 2nd coming on December 21, 1992 as preached by the "two witnesses", two of the 10 slaves who witness for Christ. They were successful, but the next day Jehovah killed Fred Franz on December 22, 1992. At this time the WTS had just joined the UN in early 1992. With Franz' death and Jehovah's help the 2nd coming took place uninterrupted on December 25, 1992. This fulfilled the 1290 days and the 1335 days in relation to the 70th week that starts in 1989 and ends in 1996. Per Bible prophecy, the messiah must arrive sometime after November 30, 1992 but before April 6 (Passover), 1993. So all was fulfilled on time. Turns out, it indeed was the messiah who wrote the letter to disfellowship the GB and reveal them as the "man of lawlessness."

But in answer to your question, Who really is the FDS? The answer is, of course, the returned Jesus Christ himself. He is the one whom Jehovah places over all his domestics while the GB of the WTS is cast outside. They are not the FDS, they are that "evil slave" who beats up on his fellow members because they think the master is delaying in his return. Which fulfills the state of the WTS right now. They are waiting for the 2nd coming to happen and keep extending that "last generation" concept. So they are frustrated. But they have the wrong chronology. The correct chronology dates the fall of Jerusalem to 529 BCE and thus the 2nd coming in 1992 rather than 1914.

So the true faithful and discreet slave turns out to be none other than Jesus Christ, returned in the flesh. The "evil slave" turns out to be the WTS, who served as the "temple in its right condition" (Daniel 8:14). The covenant with Jews and JWs ended in the Fall of 1996. Now the Covenant is with spiritual Israel who are now all but sealed into the kingdom, some 1,440,000. The 144K are only the natural Jews (Isa 6:13).

You're most welcome!

12

Why was the type/antitype understanding of the Olive Tree thrown out? (May 15, 2011 Watchtower)

by pirata in

in the may 15, 2011, pg.

23 public edition watchtower, in the article 'o the depth of god's wisdom', there is a small footnote that essentially does away with an entire 1983 study article worth of material regarding the meaning of the olive tree, spoken about by the apostle paul:.

(romans 11:17,18 nwt) 17 however, if some of the branches were broken off but you, although being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became a sharer of the olives root of fatness, 18 do not be exulting over the branches.

Larsinger58

The GB was "disfellowshipped" on November 10, 1992 and told then they would be cast into spiritual darkness. They are now reeling in agony in regards to their doctrines. This is the situation where Lazarus (J.C.) is in a favored position for Bible understanding, and the Rich Man (the GB) is in torment.

Again, Paul was reminding the gentiles not to get too haughty because the root that provided the nourishment was made up of natural Jews. The root of the tree is not Jehovah. Isa 6:13 shows that root makes up 1/10th of the tree and thus the 144,000 are, indeed, literally natural Jews from the 12 tribes of Israel, which means 90% of the members are gentiles (1,296,000).

The only way for the 12 tribes of Israel to produce 12,000 each during our time is the 12 tribes of Israel must exist. This is made possible by individuals from the 12 tribes who had "papers", that is, genealology records confirming their ancestry to one of the 12 tribes. They were chosen, among others, not to die at all but to survive down to our day. Paul and John were two also chosen not to die. But just as an original 12 individual men became nations, so these individuals would reconstitute the 12 tribes out of which the 12,000 elect would be chosen from each tribe.

That is what has actually happened. But that is hard to believe unless you are part of the elect. This part of the kingdom plan is quite secretive.

12

Why was the type/antitype understanding of the Olive Tree thrown out? (May 15, 2011 Watchtower)

by pirata in

in the may 15, 2011, pg.

23 public edition watchtower, in the article 'o the depth of god's wisdom', there is a small footnote that essentially does away with an entire 1983 study article worth of material regarding the meaning of the olive tree, spoken about by the apostle paul:.

(romans 11:17,18 nwt) 17 however, if some of the branches were broken off but you, although being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became a sharer of the olives root of fatness, 18 do not be exulting over the branches.

Larsinger58

The key to this is ISA 6:13

ISA 6:13

13 And there will still be in it a tenth, and it must again become something for burning down, like a big tree and like a massive tree in which, when there is a cutting down [of them], there is a stump; a holy seed will be the stump of it."

THE ROOT is what remained. Basically, when mankind fucks up, Jehovah destroys them and has the ability to fulfill his purpose through a few individuals! The 12 tribes of Israel were originally just a single individual. So when the Jews screwed up, Jehovah did abandon them, but only 90%. The preserved a remnant to fulfill his purpose.

Thus the 144,000 are the ROOT OF FATNESS, the original Jews. 90% are gentile wild olives grafted in. The Jews were not totally rejected, therefore, only 90%.

In direct fulfillment, individuals from the 1st century from the 12 tribes were chosen to fulfill this:

ISA 60: 22 The little one himself will become a thousand, and the small one a mighty nation. I myself, Jehovah, shall speed it up in its own time."

Individual nobodies, basically, would be used to reconstitute the 12 tribes of Israel during the end-times when Christ arrives. Technically, they would be chosen to live down to our time, and about 200-300 years before the 2nd coming would marry into indigenous populations throughout the world so that by the time Christ arrives in 1992, the 12 tribes of Israel, or a version of the 12 tribes of Israel would be in place to fulfill prophecy, that is to provide 12,000 members from each tribe. A miracle had to be evoked to fulfill this prophecy. But by this means the 144,000 natural Jews fulfill the Abrahamic covenant. Jehovah is not going to FAIL.... right?

But that also means the 90% gentiles, 1,296,000 get into the kingdom. That's good for them. But they are told not to be haugty about it! Because ultimately the Jews were the original chosen ones and God worked his covenant through a 10% remnant.

So the 12 tribes of Israel are now real again! by now a million or more descendants come from these 12 individuals or perhaps more from each of the 12 tribes. Jehovah said he would speed it up in its own time. I have an aunt who had 18 children. My grandmother came from a family of 17. So you do the match. If Jehovah will speed it up in its own time and you have second generations averaging 10-18 children, it won't take long for over a million descendants from a single parent to appear after just a couple of hundred years. All we know is that this would be accomplished. Whatever general pool was decided should be in existence to choose 12,000 worthy ones is what was targeted.

Thus the ROOT is the 144,000. The branches make up 90% which are the gentiles. The gentiles are not to get grandiose over the fallen Jews, being reminded that their life comes through the root, which is the Jews. "Salvation belongs to the Jews." Jehovah is not going to fail regarding the Abrahamic covenant. He makes modifications. He eliminates 90%, but he preserves a remnant through which to work his purpose.

P.S. Christ's re-appearance in the flesh would be through the tribe of Joseph, not Judah. So when Christ takes up the body of the prodigal son, this person is also a natural descendant of the tribe of Joseph.

Of course, I'm the messiah and so I did get to see that person from the 1st Century who married into the modern population and help create a new tribe of Joseph/Ephraim. By the sheer physical appearance of him I knew he was an ancestor of my mother.

CONCLUSION: The 12 tribes of Israel must exist at the time of the 2nd coming... and they do!

Anon

382

The Gentile Times Reconsidered

by Spade in

disproving the date 1914 as a significant year in bible prophecy is of great importance to some (e.g.

carl o. jonsson).

along with the meticulous details of bible and secular chronology, broadening one's horizons when assessing exactly what this date represents when compared against the 6000 years of human history likewise has merit.

Larsinger58

Moses talks to the Israelites..

"Once we cross the Red Sea..We`re going to New York."

"New York has a 607 Area Code!"

........................ ...OUTLAW

ROFL!!! Cute outlaw!! You have a few more months to post this funny stuff before Armageddon!!! Keep 'em coming!!!

382

The Gentile Times Reconsidered

by Spade in

disproving the date 1914 as a significant year in bible prophecy is of great importance to some (e.g.

carl o. jonsson).

along with the meticulous details of bible and secular chronology, broadening one's horizons when assessing exactly what this date represents when compared against the 6000 years of human history likewise has merit.

Larsinger58

SPADE:
Bible Chronology and Secular History: Concern is often expressed over the need to try to “harmonize” or “reconcile” the Biblical account with the chronology found in ancient secular records. Since truth is that which conforms to fact or reality, such coordinating would indeed be vital—if the ancient secular records could be demonstrated to be unequivocally exact and consistently reliable, hence a standard of accuracy by which to judge.

Spade. You are on the right track: Investigation and discussion. You just need more information. I've just discovered some of your writings. Here is something you need to know.

MARTIN ANSTEY. Martin Anstey in 1913 wrote his "Romance of Bible Chronology." He interpreted the "70 weeks" prophecy to be fulfilled in the 1st of Cyrus without exception and thus dated the 1st of Cyrus 483 years prior to the baptism of Christ. I agree with him. The 70 weeks prophecy must begin in 455 BCE but also that 455 BCE must match year 1 of Cyrus!

Martin Anstey, therefore, also determined that there were 82 years too many during the Persian Period! This seems like a lot of years to get rid of, but it really isn't. You can remove all those fake years by the time of the reign of Artaxerxes III in 358 BCE. As follows:

-1 Kambyses

-30 Darius I (per Ezra 6:14,15)

-21 Xerxes who is Artaxerxes (per Ezra 6:14,15 compared to Daniel 11:2)

-30 Artaxerxes II, 47 years reduced to 17 years.

82 years all done!

YOU are not like the others since you have to follow the Bible. So your next focus needs to be EZRA 6:14,15 which clearly shows that the king named Artaxerxes was king of Persia in the 6th year of Darius and that he is the king who actually last worked on the temple at Jerusalem. That doesn't work with revised secular history because a 36-year rule of Darius I is followed by a 21-year rule of Xerxes before Artaxerxes I comes on the scene. But once you know that "Artaxerxes" was the double-name for Xerxes, which was common for Persian kings to have two official names, then we know Xerxes and Artaxerxes were the same king and that Ezra 6:14, 15 is merely giving us the "accession year" of Xerxes/Artaxerxes.

Now, just in case you don't know how the "accession year" system works (and I apologize if it is apparent you do), the year was numbered to the king who was ruling at the time, from Spring to Spring. If the king died that year, his successor began his "year 1" the following Spring. In the meantime, the few months of rule after the death of the previous king is called his "accession year." So that is why we find an Artaxerxes is king of Persia in the sixth year of Darius because Darius I only ruled for 6 years before the Persians expanded his rule.

So when you date the 1st of Cyrus to 455 BCE, then ad 70 years back to the last deportation (not destruction of Jerusalem as JW mis-teach), then 525 BCE becomes the official year 23 of Nebuchadnezzar. The VAT4956 was created in the form oa diary to safely hide secret references to this original chronology. These secret references would appear as simple "errors" to the average or casual reader, which was the intent. But if you compare the errors with each other, you will see they match another year, that of 511 BCE for year 37 of Nebuchadnezzar in the midst of many other observations matching 568 BCE, the revised year 37 of Nebuchadnezzar. But I bring this up because 511 BCE is year 37 of Nebuchadnezzar when his year 23 falls in 525 BCE, which is where we must place the official Biblical dating.

Now for you, this might be a problem. That's because you cannot maintain loyalty to the WTS and have Bible truth as well. Case in point, note how they lyingly mislead their members in getting around Ezra 6:14,15....

"Artaxerxes Longimanus extended permission to Ezra the priest and also to Nehemiah to make trips to Jerusalem. (Ezr 7:1-7; Ne 2:1, 7, 8) Ancient historians credit him with a generally benign and generous personality. This coincides with his actions during the seventh year of his reign (468 B.C.E.), when Longimanus granted Ezra "all his request" in a decree that provided for silver, gold, and vessels for temple use, as well as provisions of wheat, wine, oil, and salt. (Ezr 7:6, 12-23; 8:25-27) This generous contribution may explain why Artaxerxes is included along with Cyrus and Darius at Ezra 6:14 as one of those whose orders contributed to the ‘building and finishing’ of the temple, although the actual construction had been completed 47 years previous, in 515 B.C.E."

This is from it-1, Artaxerxes. Note how they changed what Ezra 6:14,15 says, which is "built and FINISHED" to "building and finishing" as if this was an extended period of time. Sort of like how they are trying to extend the "last generation" I suppose. But the Bible clearly shows it was FINISHED in the sixth year of Darius by Artaxerxes, the King of Persia. Since they are fooled by the revised chronology which adds 30 years to the reign of Darius I, they have to twist the scriptures and imply "built and finished" mean "building and finishing" and thus not deal with the question of whether Xerxes' alternative name was Artaxerxes!! So they are confused and dishonest!! You can't support that and still think you can have TRUTH. This is one reason why the WTS GB is called the "man of lawlessness" at 2 Thess 4:2.

Time is running out. Soon the WTS and Christendom will be tossed into the lake of fire. They are both part of Babylon the Great now. That's why Revelation says, "Get out of her MY people!" That means Jehovah's people who originally came to the organization are now in Babylon the Great since Jehovah has abandoned the WTS now! The GB was disfellowshipped by Jehovah on November 10, 1992.

Now, I had it easy, because I was never really impressed with the Society. I always thought there were two agendas. For instance, while standing at Dodger's Stadium in the summer of 1975, that incredible build-up year by the WTS, the closing comments, they were saying how they were reluctantly booking venues for the assemblies for the next year because you have to book these stadiums a year in advance, even though it was clear they were expecting Armageddon that very year!! But then, shock! They also mentioned that they were also increasing their printing facilities and buying new presses and all that. That is, they were not going to slow down one bit in the preaching work, regardless of their 1975 theory. That's so "just in case" (vomit!) 1975 wasn't correct, they wouldn't be caught slowing down.

It thought that was amazing, but I also concluded, like 1925 and other false dates, they were now developing a reputation for false dates so I wasn't worried. Even so, I admired the focus of some at WTS headquarters who clearly didn't buy the 1975 propaganda. They were not going to stop but were going to move full speed ahead. So dumping the WTS as the "evil slave" and the "man of lawlessness" was just part of the process for me. But if you haven't been critical of them and their false teachings. It's painful to let go. But you must! You must prove a "wise virgin" and go down the narrow path. The broad road of going along with big-time religion will not get you to life. You must love Jehovah and yourself more than an organization which Jehovah has abandoned.

So if you want ANSWERS, your own personal ANSWERS to the Bible's truth, you have to dump 607 BCE, ignore Leo and Ann and Olof, and follow your own instincts after looking at ALL the research. In the end, you will have to date the 1st of Cyrus to 455 BCE. There is no other alternative. When you do, everything else will work out. But note that Darius the Mede ruled for 6 years before Cyrus came to the throne to release the Jews and Darius the Mede was the grandson of Nebuchadnezzar so the Babylonian empire continued 6 years after the overthrow. That's a technicality you are having problems with. The Bible is accurate. The 70 years ended when the "royalty of Persia" came, which is Cyrus, but not Darius!

Anyway, keep posting!!! The more light the better!!

LS

382

The Gentile Times Reconsidered

by Spade in

disproving the date 1914 as a significant year in bible prophecy is of great importance to some (e.g.

carl o. jonsson).

along with the meticulous details of bible and secular chronology, broadening one's horizons when assessing exactly what this date represents when compared against the 6000 years of human history likewise has merit.

Larsinger58

SPADE: Your focus on the "decree" by Cyrus is bogus!

I'd like you to consider that the "word going forth to rebuild Jerusalem" which has been translated as "command" or "decree" was the actual literal command to rebuild! That is, the word that is given like at a ground-breaking ceremony.

In other words, this is not the decree of a king to begin to rebuild. This is the actual command when they are on site to officially begin the work. That way, the very MONTH of that command will be used to calculate the 70 weeks. That is critical because "gift and sacrifice" must end specifically at mid-week. That is, Christ must die specifically at mid-week. Since that is precisely at passover time at the beginning of Spring, the 70 weeks must begin in a month-specific time, the only option being month 7.

Of course, you well know the work is recorded to begin specifically on the 1st day of the 7th month. That is when the "word" or "command" went forth to begin the rebuilding. So in those times, when a major building project was undertaken, there must have been some type of a formal ceremony to begin the work and during the ceremony, likely some official picked up a spade or shovel and officially began the work like we still do today in our ground-breaking ceremonies where officials come out with a silver shoven or something and actually begin the digging, etc. So the Jews would have recognized the "word going forth to rebuild" as a ceremonial official beginning of the work. Thus this "word" or command to actually begin the work took place on the 1st day of the 7th month which begins the count-down of the 70 weeks to the time of the messiah at the end of 69 weeks. But specifically also to the time of the year, which would be the Fall.

So, SPADE, now step back and reflect on the spiritual and messianic applications of the two week-long festivals of the Jews, that are 6 months apart. Passover is when Christ dies and is given in sacrifice. But the Festival of Booths, which is celebrated during the 7th month is about how God comes down to dwell with mankind in a both. That is, that Christ would come down to earth and be born in a manger, which means in an animal booth, an when he began his ministry, he would not be part of the royal priesthood, which is represented as the house, but outside the priesthood, and thus represented as a booth outside the house.

Thus we know from the FOB that Christ must begin his ministry in the fall, actually in direct connection with the Festival of Booths. In fact, his circumcision on the 8th day of life fulfills the special sabbath on the 8th day of the Festival of Booths.

CONCLUSION: You are barking up a wrong tree when you presume without exclusion that the "command to rebuild Jerusalem" is a decree by some king. It is not, necessarily. Instead, I prefer to recognize it is the official ceremonial command to begin the work at a special ground-breaking ceremony much as we do today and that specific event in a specific month is when the 70 weeks must officially begin.

So forget about Leo and Ann on this point. It's a catch-22 issue but not a Biblical point at all.

But if you want to debate with them, remind them both that Darius the Mede, per the Bible, rules for a full 6 years before Cyrus comes to the throne. As well, Dariius the Mede was a grandson of Nebuchadnezzar II. So the "royalty of Persia" does not include the 6-year rule of Darius the Mede. Thus when Babylon was conquered by Cyrus and Darius and Darius ruled over Babylon, it was still the Neo-Babylonian empire. Further, it seems as though Nabonidus, the #1 king was still at large at the time. He would not have been conquered and imprisoned until "Cyrus the PERSIAN" that is, the "royalty of Persia" began to rule.

So for clarity: The 70 year desolation does not end until Cyrus takes over from Darius the Mede. Darius the Mede was still part of the Neo-Babylonian line of kings since he was the grandson of Nebuchadnezzar. That's why you are having confusion because you don't realize the 6-year (revised 2-year) rule of Darius the Mede was not the "royalty of Persia" nor the end of the NB empire.

Leo and Ann are always going to win the critical arguments where you are misinterpreting or misunderstanding the Bible. So you must understand the correct Biblical interpretation and then defend that and you will win against the anti-Biblical propagandists.

But KEEP POSTING! There is someting about your posts that irritate the anti-Biblicalists, so I'm quite pleased! The more people discuss and understand the details or even opposing views, the better. What they really wish is that you'd shut the f*$k up, but you won't, so that's great!!! Their best defense is ignorance of the facts. Darkness is what they want, not light. I say the more light the better!

26

Does The Watchtower even try to prove 607BCE anymore?

by VM44 in

when was the last time that the watchtower published an article that attempted to prove the year 607 b.c.e.

was correct over the year 587 b.c.e.?.

the watchtower now simply mentions the year in its publications without attempting to justify it.. proof through repetition?.

Larsinger58

Larsinger, OBVES, the Borg are coming. Run! Where? Somewhere in the Kuiper belt there must be some asteroid big enough for both of you...

OBVES and myself are not afraid of the WTS. We're here to condemn it. It is they who are running from us!!

LS

26

Does The Watchtower even try to prove 607BCE anymore?

by VM44 in

when was the last time that the watchtower published an article that attempted to prove the year 607 b.c.e.

was correct over the year 587 b.c.e.?.

the watchtower now simply mentions the year in its publications without attempting to justify it.. proof through repetition?.

Larsinger58

Alfred:

Lasinger... Since the Bible states in no amiguous terms that "these nations will have to serve the king of Babylon seventy years", exactly how was it possible for the jews to continue serving the king of Babylon between 539BCE and 537BCE when this king was killed in 539???

Very good. I'm shocked--someone actually paying attention and understanding what has to be fulfilled. The direct answer to your question is that Darius the Mede was the grandson of Nebuchadnezzar II and so qualified as a Babylonian king. In the meantime, Nabonidus was still ruling at-large during the 6-year rule of Darius the Mede. Thus it wasn't until Cyrus took over the entire empire and started his rulership years at 1 again that the Jews were released. So the death of Belshazzar did not end the Neo-Babylonian rulership, it continued through the sons of Nebuchadnezzar which was his son-in-law Nabonidus as primary ruler and Darius the Mede his grandson. This fulfills the prophecy specifically:

Thus for you, the key verse to look at is when exactly the 70 years would end:

2 Chronicles 36: 20 Furthermore, he carried off those remaining from the sword captive to Babylon, and they came to be servants to him and his sons until the royalty of Persia began to reign; 21 to fulfill Jehovah’s word by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had paid off its sabbaths. All the days of lying desolated it kept sabbath, to fulfill seventy years. "

Darius the MEDE is not part of the royalty of Persia but the royalty of the Medes. That is why Darius is specifically called "Darius the Mede" and Cyrus is called "Cyrus the Persian." Cyrus represented the "royalty of Persia" and he would not begin to rule over Babylon until after the 6-year rule of Darius the Mede. So the 70 years ends when Cyrus comes to the throne, not when Cyrus conquers Babylon or when Darius the Mede begins to rule.

As far as the nations serving for 70 years, obviously those nations conquered before the 23rd of Nebuchadnezzar would serve more than 70 years, just as those deported out of Judea before year 23 would also serve 70 years. Thus we are really only looking at who was deported in year 23 of Nebuchadnezzar?

We know that the last remnant of Jews from Egypt were deported in year 23. But the Bible does mention the nations would serve for 70 years. This is a reference to those nations like Tyre and Ashkelon whose cities were destroyed during this time and their population and peoples deported. The Bible is not specific as to when some of these nations would be conquered, only that their destruction would come after Jerusalem was destroyed. So sometime after year 19 when Jerusalem was destroyed, Nebuchadnezzar conquered these other nations in the region. He may have let some poor people remain as he did after the destruction of Jerusalem. But in year 23, all in the land who were left were deported and they would not return until after 70 years of servitude at Babylon.

Thus the nations deported in year 23 along with the last remnant of Jews are the ones who serve the 70 years at a time when the entire region was laid desolated. Thus the 70 years of desolation for the purpose of sabbath payback was the same 70 years spent at Babylon by the last deportees in year 23 of Nebuchadnezzar. They served down to the overthrow of Babylon by Cyrus and Darius the Mede, but continued to be ruled by sons of Nebuchadnezzar until the 1st of Cyrus, that is, Darius the Mede and Nabonidus. Thus the 1st of Cyrus ends the 70-year exile.

You focussed on 539-537 BCE as far as years of servitude. The answer as I said before was that Darius the Mede was the grandson of Nebuchadnezzar so this qualified as part of the 70 years. Thus the Neo-Babylonian empire did not end until Cyrus began to reign, who was Persian. Only 539 BCE is not the correct date. The 1st of Cyrus falls in 455 BCE following a 6-year rule by Darius the Mede. Therefore, Babylon fell in 462 BCE, and the 6-year rule of Darius the Mede was from 461-455 BCE.

So it all works out perfectly when you understand enough of the deails.

LS

26

Does The Watchtower even try to prove 607BCE anymore?

by VM44 in

when was the last time that the watchtower published an article that attempted to prove the year 607 b.c.e.

was correct over the year 587 b.c.e.?.

the watchtower now simply mentions the year in its publications without attempting to justify it.. proof through repetition?.

Larsinger58

Sorry Lars, I did not mean the 70 years in itself as being thin, but the proof being based purely on that verse. It's very simple, the WTS says: "the Bible says 70 years of desolation, and we know that rebuilding Jerusalem started in 537, so it must be 607". But where do you know from the date of 537? That's right, from the same "unreliable" source that gave us 587. And that's what I call very thin.

Ah, okay. And I agree totally! For sure, the WTS has so many dates that don't match secular history, which is under the presumption of revisionism, that claiming their pivotal date of 539 BCE was also revised does not leave them anywhere to run for support. They are like the boy who cried wolf; they claimed so many secular dates are wrong so often that they can hardly claim 539 BCE is uniquely reliable.

LS