by VM44 26 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
When was the last time that The Watchtower published an article that attempted to prove the year 607 B.C.E. was correct over the year 587 B.C.E.?
The Watchtower now simply mentions the year in its publications without attempting to justify it.
Proof through repetition?
In my 10 years being in, I never saw 587 mentioned anywhere, except in the appendix of Daniel book, with the very thin "proof" about the 70 years. The R&F would believe absolutely anything, no matter how crazy, and they don't want to be bothered with the details. The WT just gives them what they really need: being lead.
I would say Chapter 14 appendix of Let Your Kindom Come (1980) and then the 2 Insight volumes (1988)... extremely weak and misleading arguments made in both... ever since then, there really hasn't been any further attempt to prove that 607 is "Biblical"... I'm guessing they decided to quit rather than dig themselves any deeper into this BS.
There is critical proof of the 70 years.
For one, Josephus notes the 70-year exile of the last deportees which is consistent with the Biblical account of when the 70 years occurred; that is, from the time of the last deportation in year 23 of Nebuchadnezzar II to the 1st of Cyrus. This is one of those suppressed references those trying to promote 587 BCE don't like to hear. So here it is:
ANTIQUITIES 11.1.1
1. IN the first year of the reign of Cyrus (1) which was the seventieth from the day that our people were removed out of their own land into Babylon, God commiserated the captivity and calamity of these poor people, according as he had foretold to them by Jeremiah the prophet, before the destruction of the city, that after they had served Nebuchadnezzar and his posterity, and after they had undergone that servitude seventy years, he would restore them again to the land of their fathers, and they should build their temple, and enjoy their ancient prosperity.
This is almost a direct paraphrase of 2 Chronicles 36:
Furthermore, he carried off those remaining from the sword captive to Babylon, and they came to be servants to him and his sons until the royalty of Persia began to reign; 21 to fulfill Jehovah’s word by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had paid off its sabbaths. All the days of lying desolated it kept sabbath, to fulfill seventy years.
KEY POINTS here are:
1) Those specifically serving 70 years per Josephus were the "poor people" which corresponds to 2 Chronicles who calls them, specifically, "those remaining from the sword." These are those of the last deportation from among the poor people who were left in the land after the destruction of Jerusalem but who had ran down to Egypt. Upon refusing to return, Jehovah sent Nebuchadnezzar to kill off the majority of them, thus those who were left remaining were called "those remaining from the sword."
This is clear from Jeremiah 44:14 and 28:
14 And there will come to be no escapee or survivor for the remnant of Judah who are entering in to reside there as aliens, in the land of Egypt, even to return to the land of Judah to which they are lifting up their soul[ful desire] to return in order to dwell; for they will not return, except some escaped ones.’”
This is yet another critical reference in the Bible the WTS is loathe to have the R & F connect with. That is, that the last deportation was out of Egypt from the escaped ones. That is because it is all too clear anyone being deported out of Egypt would certainly have to return via Judea and the WTS needs the concept that the land was completely desolated for 70 years began with the destruction of Jerusalem in year 18/19 rather than the year of the last deportation, year 23.
Here is their mind-control, power of suggestion deception regarding who was deported in year 23, even though they know quite otherwise:
Insight Book, page 416:
"Some two months later, after the assassination of Gedaliah, the rest of the Jews left behind in Judah fled to Egypt, taking Jeremiah and Baruch along with them. (2Ki 25:8-12, 25, 26; Jer 43:5-7) Some of the Jews also may have fled to other nations round about. Probably from among these nations were the 745 captives, as household heads, exiled five years later when Nebuchadnezzar, as Jehovah’s symbolic club, dashed to pieces the nations bordering Judah. (Jer 51:20; 52:30) Josephus says that five years after the fall of Jerusalem, Nebuchadnezzar overran Ammon and Moab and then went on down and took vengeance on Egypt.—JewishAntiquities, X, 181, 182 (ix, 7).
Here the WTS has the audacity to use Josephus as a confirmation of the year-23 campaign and yet avoid the specific reference by Josephus that those deported last were those who were down in Egypt. Not some imaginary escapees from other nations! So they avoid a direct reference about Egypt and betray the scriptures at Jeremiah 44:14,28. Here is Josephus' reference from which they quote and thus know for a fact that the historical reference for those last deported were from the official remnant of Jews down in Egypt:
"...the twenty-third of the reign of Nebuchadnezzar, he made an expedition against Celesyria; and when he had possessed himself of it, he made war against the Ammonites and Moabites; and when he had brought all these nations under subjection, he fell upon Egypt, in order to overthrow it; and he slew the king that then reigned (16) and set up another; and he took those Jews that were there captives, and led them away to Babylon. And such was the end of the nation of the Hebrews..."
Notice this is the same reference of Antiquities X! Josephus says nothing about the deportees coming from anywhere else but Egypt. This is in complete harmony with Jeremiah 44 which confirms that those who "escaped from the sword" are the ones who were deported last and who were the specific ones to serve the 70 years.
See what lying, deceptive men the WTS GB is? They need to twist the scriptures to maintain their false 1914 doctrine.
VAT4956 CONFIRMS RELATIVE CHRONOLOGY OF 70 YEARS: Finally, the VAT4956, an astronomical text from the Seleucid Period designed to hide cryptic references from the original timeline that had been changed in a diary full of revised dating, is another means of confirming the 70 years. That's because it dates year 37 of Nebuchadnezzar to 511 BCE in complete harmony with the Bible's dating the 1st of Cyrus to 455 BCE following 70 years of exile. In that case, year 23 of Nebuchadnezzar falls in 525 BCE which means year 37 falls in 511 BCE, confirmed by this text. Thus the "relative chronology" of the 70 years from year 23 is confirmed by the VAT4956 as well.
So the 70 years is not a "thin" reference. We know precisely when the Bible and Josephus apply the 70 years. Of course, we can't get that truth from the WTS who needs to begin the 70 years in year 18 which they incorrectly date to 607 BCE. Their need to confirm the land was totally and continuously desolated from this point down to the 1st of Cyrus requires them to steer the minds of their followers away from the idea that those last deported were from Egypt who had escaped from the sword of Nebuchadnezzar II. Josephus confirms those last deported were from the official remnant of Jews down in Egypt, not some imaginary scattered ones which is not supported by the Bible, and, in fact are contradicted by the Bible.
Can you see, therefore, why the WTS' GB is described as the "man of lawlessness" at 2 Thess 2:4?
But you are also correct that the R & F of JWs are also lovers of darkness. They love and embrace the darkness their glorified leadership provide. They are true worshippers of a new god and mediator, the "Faithful and Discreet Slave" god.
So the bottom line is that the secularists lie about the fall of Jerusalem when dated to 587 BCE, and the WTS also using the false timeline lie about Jerusalem falling in 607 BCE, though they are shying away from that discussion now in their publications. Instead, the true date for year 19 of Nebuchadnezzar, confirmed by the VAT4956 is 529 BCE. This includes a 70-year interval from year 23 of Neb2 down to the 1st of Cyrus. So the 70 years is very firmly established, it is not "thin." But 607 BCE and 587 BCE are the dates that are thin.
LS
Sorry Lars, I did not mean the 70 years in itself as being thin, but the proof being based purely on that verse. It's very simple, the WTS says: "the Bible says 70 years of desolation, and we know that rebuilding Jerusalem started in 537, so it must be 607". But where do you know from the date of 537? That's right, from the same "unreliable" source that gave us 587. And that's what I call very thin.
Sorry Lars, I did not mean the 70 years in itself as being thin, but the proof being based purely on that verse. It's very simple, the WTS says: "the Bible says 70 years of desolation, and we know that rebuilding Jerusalem started in 537, so it must be 607". But where do you know from the date of 537? That's right, from the same "unreliable" source that gave us 587. And that's what I call very thin.
Ah, okay. And I agree totally! For sure, the WTS has so many dates that don't match secular history, which is under the presumption of revisionism, that claiming their pivotal date of 539 BCE was also revised does not leave them anywhere to run for support. They are like the boy who cried wolf; they claimed so many secular dates are wrong so often that they can hardly claim 539 BCE is uniquely reliable.
LS
i think most JWs just figure its right because the watchtower says so.
and so, the watchtower is happy to just place footnotes to its own publications knowing that few will actually go look them up anyway, and that those who do will just give it a cursory read over too.
i wouldn't think they feel the need to 'provr' that stuff anymore.
oz
I think it is more that they know bloody well they have no proof for it, and therefore I think they have a policy as the original post posited, of simply repeating it as fact so everyone assumes it has been proven.
When was the last time they even put in a footnote referring back to some "proof" ?
They cannot offer any support for 1914 that bears scrutiny, yet they cannot ditch it, it is their only claim to any legitamacy for their teachings and their demands, i.e submission and loyalty etc. but primarily $$$$.
If it is not true, 1914, why should anyone even pay them scant attention, let alone dollars.
Of course the whole 1914 doctrine is NOT TRUE !
Lasinger... Since the Bible states in no amiguous terms that "these nations will have to serve the king of Babylon seventy years", exactly how was it possible for the jews to continue serving the king of Babylon between 539BCE and 537BCE when this king was killed in 539???
Also, if you carefully read the full Biblical account in the book of Jeremiah, you'll start to realize that the "desolation" of any of the nations (that served the king of babylon) only came after that nation rebelled against the king of babylon. If, for example, one of those nations only served the king of Babylon for some 20 years (out of the 70) and then rebelled against the king, the remaining 50 years of servitude would have to be completed while in full captivity/slavery and while that nation's land lied desolate for those remaining years. by the way, that's exactly what happened to the nation of Judah...
But the WT continuously ignores this and insists on subtituting the phrase "70 years of servitude" with "70 years of desolation"... I think it's plainly obvious why they choose to do this... it's their only way to push the 70-year thing to arrive at 607BCE...
*** w89 3/15 pp. 21-22 pars. 16-19 Insight That Jehovah Has Given ***
Secular historians, relying on their interpretation of what are in some cases fragmentary tablets unearthed by archaeologists, have concluded that 464 B.C.E. was the first year of the kingship of Artaxerxes Longimanus and that 604 B.C.E. was the first year of the kingship of Nebuchadnezzar II. If that were true, the 20th year of Artaxerxes would begin in 445 B.C.E., and the date of Jerusalem’s desolation by the Babylonians (in Nebuchadnezzar’s 18th regnal year) would be 587 B.C.E. But if a Bible student uses those dates when calculating the fulfillment of prophecy, he will simply be confused.
17 Jehovah’s Witnesses have been interested in the findings of archaeologists as these relate to the Bible. However, where the interpretation of these findings conflicts with clear statements in the Bible, we accept with confidence what the Holy Scriptures say, whether on matters related to chronology or any other topic. As a result, Jehovah’s servants have long recognized that the prophetic time period that began in the 20th year of Artaxerxes was to be counted from 455 B.C.E. and thus that Daniel 9:24-27 reliably pointed to the year 29 C.E. in the autumn as the time for the anointing of Jesus as the Messiah. For the same reason, they have realized that the prophecy in Daniel chapter 4 regarding the "seven times" began counting in 607-606 B.C.E. and that it pinpointed 1914 C.E. in the autumn as the year when Christ was enthroned in heaven as ruling King and this world entered its time of the end. But they would not have discerned these thrilling fulfillments of prophecy if they had wavered in their confidence in the inspiration of the Holy Scriptures. Thus, the insight that they have shown has been directly associated with their reliance on God’s Word.
18 Contrasting the spiritual condition of his loyal servants with that of individuals and groups that readily push aside the Scriptures in favor of whatever is currently popular, Jehovah says: "Look! My own servants will eat, but you yourselves will go hungry. Look! My own servants will drink, but you yourselves will go thirsty. Look! My own servants will rejoice, but you yourselves will suffer shame. Look! My own servants will cry out joyfully because of the good condition of the heart, but you yourselves will make outcries because of the pain of heart and you will howl because of sheer breakdown of spirit."—Isaiah 65:13, 14.
19 As this brief historical review has shown, it is through the columns of The Watchtower that explanations of vital Scriptural truths have been provided for us by Jehovah’s "faithful and discreet slave." The Watchtower is the principal instrument used by the "slave" class for dispensing spiritual food. Are you benefiting from it fully? Do you read each issue, and does your study program include looking up scriptures that are cited but not quoted? Do you also make it a habit to meditate on what you have studied, building up appreciation for it, considering how it should affect your attitude, your desires, your daily activities, your goals in life? Your doing so can be a big factor in your making decisions based on the genuine insight that Jehovah alone has given.
*** w86 11/1 p. 6 A Dream Reveals How Late It Is ***
When Did the "Seven Times" Really End?
Some people argue that even if the "seven times" are prophetic and even if they last 2,520 years, Jehovah’s Witnesses are still mistaken about the significance of 1914 because they use the wrong starting point. Jerusalem, they claim, was destroyed in 587/6 B.C.E., not in 607 B.C.E. If true, this would shift the start of "the time of the end" by some 20 years. However, in 1981 Jehovah’s Witnesses published convincing evidence in support of the 607 B.C.E. date. ("Let Your Kingdom Come," pages 127-40, 186-9) Besides, can those trying to rob 1914 of its Biblical significance prove that 1934—or any other year for that matter—has had a more profound, more dramatic, and more spectacular impact upon world history than 1914 did?
*** w69 2/1 p. 90 Babylonian Chronology—How Reliable? ***
Ptolemy assigned 21 years to the reign of Nabopolassar, 43 to Nebuchadnezzar, 2 to Evil-merodach, 4 to Neriglissar, and 17 to Nabonidus, for a total of 87 years. Counting back from the first year of Cyrus, following the fall of Babylon, therefore, historians date Nabopolassar’s first year as commencing in 625 B.C.E., Nebuchadnezzar’s first year as 604, and the destruction of Jerusalem as in 586 or 587. These dates are some 20 years later than those indicated by Bible chronology, yet modern historians favor the system of dating based on Ptolemy.
*** w65 9/15 p. 569 A Pivotal Date in History ***
If we follow the accurate timekeeping of Jehovah God as recorded in his Word, we see that the desolation of Judah ran from 607 to 537 B.C.E. and will thereby avoid making the mistake of the chronologers of Christendom who ignore the prophecy of the seventy years’ desolation and date Jerusalem’s destruction as occurring in 587 B.C.E. They limit the desolation of Jerusalem and the land of Judah to merely fifty years, accepting the unreliable calculations of pagan historians rather than the infallible Word of God.—2 Chron. 36:19-23.
*** kc chap. 14 p. 138 par. 29 The King Reigns! *** (1981)
However, based primarily on such secular records, some persons figure that Jerusalem was destroyed in 587/6 B.C.E. and that the Jews came under Babylonian domination in Nebuchadnezzar’s accession year, which they calculate as being 605 B.C.E. They thus hold 605 B.C.E. to be the date when Jeremiah 25:11 began to be fulfilled: "All the land shall be a desolation; and they shall serve among the Gentiles seventy years." (Bagster’s Greek Septuagint) If that were so and the Gentile Times were counted from then, it would put the end of the prophetic "seven times" in the World War year of 1916. Yet, as stated, we believe that there is much stronger reason for accepting the information in God’s inspired Word, which points to the Gentile Times’ beginning in October 607 B.C.E. and ending in October of 1914 C.E.
*** kc pp. 186-189 Appendix to Chapter 14 ***
Appendix to Chapter 14
Historians hold that Babylon fell to Cyrus’ army in October 539 B.C.E. Nabonidus was then king, but his son Belshazzar was coruler of Babylon. Some scholars have worked out a list of the Neo-Babylonian kings and the length of their reigns, from the last year of Nabonidus back to Nebuchadnezzar’s father Nabopolassar.
According to that Neo-Babylonian chronology, Crown-prince Nebuchadnezzar defeated the Egyptians at the battle of Carchemish in 605 B.C.E. (Jeremiah 46:1, 2) After Nabopolassar died Nebuchadnezzar returned to Babylon to assume the throne. His first regnal year began the following spring (604 B.C.E.).
The Bible reports that the Babylonians under Nebuchadnezzar destroyed Jerusalem in his 18th regnal year (19th when accession year is included). (Jeremiah 52:5, 12, 13, 29) Thus if one accepted the above Neo-Babylonian chronology, the desolation of Jerusalem would have been in the year 587/6 B.C.E. But on what is this secular chronology based and how does it compare with the chronology of the Bible?
Some major lines of evidence for this secular chronology are:
Ptolemy’s Canon: Claudius Ptolemy was a Greek astronomer who lived in the second century C.E. His Canon, or list of kings, was connected with a work on astronomy that he produced. Most modern historians accept Ptolemy’s information about the Neo-Babylonian kings and the length of their reigns (though Ptolemy does omit the reign of Labashi-Marduk). Evidently Ptolemy based his historical information on sources dating from the Seleucid period, which began more than 250 years after Cyrus captured Babylon. It thus is not surprising that Ptolemy’s figures agree with those of Berossus, a Babylonian priest of the Seleucid period.
Nabonidus Harran Stele (NABON H 1, B): This contemporary stele, or pillar with an inscription, was discovered in 1956. It mentions the reigns of the Neo-Babylonian kings Nebuchadnezzar, Evil-Merodach, Neriglissar. The figures given for these three agree with those from Ptolemy’s Canon.
VAT 4956: This is a cuneiform tablet that provides astronomical information datable to 568 B.C.E. It says that the observations were from Nebuchadnezzar’s 37th year. This would correspond to the chronology that places his 18th regnal year in 587/6 B.C.E. However, this tablet is admittedly a copy made in the third century B.C.E. so it is possible that its historical information is simply that which was accepted in the Seleucid period.
Business tablets: Thousands of contemporary Neo-Babylonian cuneiform tablets have been found that record simple business transactions, stating the year of the Babylonian king when the transaction occurred. Tablets of this sort have been found for all the years of reign for the known Neo-Babylonian kings in the accepted chronology of the period.
From a secular viewpoint, such lines of evidence might seem to establish the Neo-Babylonian chronology with Nebuchadnezzar’s 18th year (and the destruction of Jerusalem) in 587/6 B.C.E. However, no historian can deny the possibility that the present picture of Babylonian history might be misleading or in error. It is known, for example, that ancient priests and kings sometimes altered records for their own purposes. Or, even if the discovered evidence is accurate, it might be misinterpreted by modern scholars or be incomplete so that yet undiscovered material could drastically alter the chronology of the period.
Evidently realizing such facts, Professor Edward F. Campbell, Jr., introduced a chart, which included Neo-Babylonian chronology, with the caution: "It goes without saying that these lists are provisional. The more one studies the intricacies of the chronological problems in the ancient Near East, the less he is inclined to think of any presentation as final. For this reason, the term circa [about] could be used even more liberally than it is."—The Bible and the Ancient Near East (1965 ed.), p. 281.
Christians who believe the Bible have time and again found that its words stand the test of much criticism and have been proved accurate and reliable. They recognize that as the inspired Word of God it can be used as a measuring rod in evaluating secular history and views. (2 Timothy 3:16, 17) For instance, though the Bible spoke of Belshazzar as ruler of Babylon, for centuries scholars were confused about him because no secular documents were available as to his existence, identity or position. Finally, however, archaeologists discovered secular records that confirmed the Bible. Yes, the Bible’s internal harmony and the care exercised by its writers, even in matters of chronology, recommends it so strongly to the Christian that he places its authority above that of the ever-changing opinions of secular historians.
But how does the Bible help us to determine when Jerusalem was destroyed, and how does this compare to secular chronology?
The prophet Jeremiah predicted that the Babylonians would destroy Jerusalem and make the city and land a desolation. (Jeremiah 25:8, 9) He added: "And all this land must become a devastated place, an object of astonishment, and these nations will have to serve the king of Babylon seventy years." (Jeremiah 25:11) The 70 years expired when Cyrus the Great, in his first year, released the Jews and they returned to their homeland. (2 Chronicles 36:17-23) We believe that the most direct reading of Jeremiah 25:11 and other texts is that the 70 years would date from when the Babylonians destroyed Jerusalem and left the land of Judah desolate.—Jeremiah 52:12-15, 24-27; 36:29-31.
Yet those who rely primarily on secular information for the chronology of that period realize that if Jerusalem were destroyed in 587/6 B.C.E. certainly it was not 70 years until Babylon was conquered and Cyrus let the Jews return to their homeland. In an attempt to harmonize matters, they claim that Jeremiah’s prophecy began to be fulfilled in 605 B.C.E. Later writers quote Berossus as saying that after the battle of Carchemish Nebuchadnezzar extended Babylonian influence into all Syria-Palestine and, when returning to Babylon (in his accession year, 605 B.C.E.), he took Jewish captives into exile. Thus they figure the 70 years as a period of servitude to Babylon beginning in 605 B.C.E. That would mean that the 70-year period would expire in 535 B.C.E.
But there are a number of major problems with this interpretation:
Though Berossus claims that Nebuchadnezzar took Jewish captives in his accession year, there are no cuneiform documents supporting this. More significantly, Jeremiah 52:28-30 carefully reports that Nebuchadnezzar took Jews captive in his seventh year, his 18th year and his 23rd year, not his accession year. Also, Jewish historian Josephus states that in the year of the battle of Carchemish Nebuchadnezzar conquered all of Syria-Palestine "excepting Judea," thus contradicting Berossus and conflicting with the claim that 70 years of Jewish servitude began in Nebuchadnezzar’s accession year.—Antiquities of the Jews X, vi, 1.
Furthermore, Josephus elsewhere describes the destruction of Jerusalem by the Babylonians and then says that "all Judea and Jerusalem, and the temple, continued to be a desert for seventy years." (Antiquities of the Jews X, ix, 7) He pointedly states that "our city was desolate during the interval of seventy years, until the days of Cyrus." (Against Apion I, 19) This agrees with 2 Chronicles 36:21 and Daniel 9:2 that the foretold 70 years were 70 years of full desolation for the land. Second-century (C.E.) writer Theophilus of Antioch also shows that the 70 years commenced with the destruction of the temple after Zedekiah had reigned 11 years.—See also 2 Kings 24:18–25:21.
But the Bible itself provides even more telling evidence against the claim that the 70 years began in 605 B.C.E. and that Jerusalem was destroyed in 587/6 B.C.E. As mentioned, if we were to count from 605 B.C.E., the 70 years would reach down to 535 B.C.E. However, the inspired Bible writer Ezra reported that the 70 years ran until "the first year of Cyrus the king of Persia," who issued a decree allowing the Jews to return to their homeland. (Ezra 1:1-4; 2 Chronicles 36:21-23) Historians accept that Cyrus conquered Babylon in October 539 B.C.E. and that Cyrus’ first regnal year began in the spring of 538 B.C.E. If Cyrus’ decree came late in his first regnal year, the Jews could easily be back in their homeland by the seventh month (Tishri) as Ezra 3:1 says; this would be October 537 B.C.E.
However, there is no reasonable way of stretching Cyrus’ first year from 538 down to 535 B.C.E. Some who have tried to explain away the problem have in a strained manner claimed that in speaking of "the first year of Cyrus" Ezra and Daniel were using some peculiar Jewish viewpoint that differed from the official count of Cyrus’ reign. But that cannot be sustained, for both a non-Jewish governor and a document from the Persian archives agree that the decree occurred in Cyrus’ first year, even as the Bible writers carefully and specifically reported.—Ezra 5:6, 13; 6:1-3; Daniel 1:21; 9:1-3.
Jehovah’s "good word" is bound up with the foretold 70-year period, for God said:
"This is what Jehovah has said, ‘In accord with the fulfilling of seventy years at Babylon I shall turn my attention to you people, and I will establish toward you my good word in bringing you back to this place.’" (Jeremiah 29:10)
Daniel relied on that word, trusting that the 70 years were not a ‘round number’ but an exact figure that could be counted on. (Daniel 9:1, 2) And that proved to be so.
Similarly, we are willing to be guided primarily by God’s Word rather than by a chronology that is based principally on secular evidence or that disagrees with the Scriptures. It seems evident that the easiest and most direct understanding of the various Biblical statements is that the 70 years began with the complete desolation of Judah after Jerusalem was destroyed. (Jeremiah 25:8-11; 2 Chronicles 36:20-23; Daniel 9:2) Hence, counting back 70 years from when the Jews returned to their homeland in 537 B.C.E., we arrive at 607 B.C.E. for the date when Nebuchadnezzar, in his 18th regnal year, destroyed Jerusalem, removed Zedekiah from the throne and brought to an end the Judean line of kings on a throne in earthly Jerusalem.—Ezekiel 21:19-27.
