Posts by Larsinger58

43

I don't get this...Jesus' birth and death

by poopsiecakes in

forgive me if this topic has been raised before - and i'm still working it out in my head so bear with me.... conventional religions, including jw's, teach that jesus was 30 when he was baptized and began his ministry which lasted 3 years.

the year of jesus' death is said to be ad 33, which would make him 33. and that's what i've always understood.... even the wt of april 2011 says that according to 'modern calculations' the year of his birth is thought to be 2 bc and wikipedia says possibly as far back as 7 bc.

i've never heard anyone argue the fact that there's no way these dates add up.

Larsinger58

djeggnog: Notice, too, that it was after midnight on Nisan 14, after the destroyed had struck every firstborn of man and beast in the land of Egypt, that a great outcry arose among the Egyptians "because there was not a house where there was not one dead." So it was "by night" that the king of Egypt summoned Moses and Aaron, telling them to "Get up, get out from the midst of my people, both you and the other sons of Israel, and go, serve Jehovah, just as you have stated. Take both your flocks and your herds, just as you have stated, and go." (Exodus 12:29-32)

You are very well informed about the wrong things. Here is what is missing.

1. When the Israelites first left Egypt, they changed the DATE at midnight. So passover was eaten on Nisan 14th up until midnight, when the angel of death arrived and then that meal ended. At midnight the date changed to the 15. This is directly confirmed by a scripture that you must not be aware of, Numbers 33:3

2. The Bible specifically states that the Israelites left on the 15th, which directly contradicts your above statement: Here is Numbers 33:3:

3 And they proceeded to pull away from Ram´e·ses in the first month, on the fifteenth day of the first month...

In other words, the first day of unfemented cakes was made into a special sabbath day, because that was the day they left Egypt. That meant that passover was eaten on the same sabbath day because it was that SAME NIGHT they left Egypt. Your confusion comes from thinking the DATE changed at sundown rather than at midnight as it does now. That being the case, as I quoted from before, that would mean the first day of unfermented cakes begins on Nisan 14th in the evening, which is clearly stated at Exodus 12:

17 “‘And YOU must keep the festival of unfermented cakes, because on this very day I must bring YOUR armies out from the land of Egypt. And YOU must keep this day throughout YOUR generations as a statute to time indefinite. 18 In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month, in the evening YOU are to eat unfermented cakes down till the twenty-first day of the month in the evening.

36

Everything is "Satan" ... Now what?

by roxanesophia in

firstly, i'm a study who initially believed every word of the jw's.

figured "no other religion takes the time and effort to help people understand the bible by publishing the watchtower and the other literature" not realizing that all it does is pick and choose scriptures to suit whatever sentence they'd just written, which can be done using any book, not just the bible.

i felt foolish, after that.. .

Larsinger58

Leave the broad road, go down the narrow path.

Our relationship with the Creator is personal, not through some organization, especially one which has now been cast into disfavor with Jehovah.

91

GLOBAL FLOOD . . . Did it Really Happen?

by sizemik in

this question became an off-topic sidetrack in another thread.

i thought it might be worth some debate so posted here .

the debate is basically between mainstream geological understanding of the earth's history and "young earth creationism" in particular with how the evidence relates to the occurrence of a global flood in the recent past.. a couple of points from the yec website www.icr.org are raised as examples in order to kick things off .

Larsinger58

How did animals end up in places like South America and Australia if there was a flood that limited all life on earth to a centralized point in the middle east 6000 years ago? If youve escaped the JWs you clearly have some critical thinking ability so anybody who says there was a global flood, please use your critical thinking here.

Have you ever heard of a zoo keeper? Individuals likely took groups of animals to scatterred areas of the world. Is that too hard to imagine. You think God created a global flood without thinking the whole thing through?

Some people don't believe because lack imagination or perhaps something more basic.

The Bible is true. God is real. The Global Flood happened. Don't let the miraculous things make you miss out on eternal life.

LS

27

Recent activities at the laundermat and Payless shoe store

by loosie in

ok last time i went to the laudermat all i found was a trifold tract from the jw's.

they gave me so much room to write ( why do they do that?

) i wrote on there "when will you jw's stop leaving mags and tracts at this laundermat"...lol i wonder what will be there next week.. my friends works part time at payless shoe store.

Larsinger58

Sounds like desperation to me.

If you are pioneering and there is no territory, you have to try to place your magazines. But you can count magazines you leave at different places. So seems me they had lots of magazines to get rid of and this was one desperate opportunity to leave the magazines.

Sometimes this gets to be ridiculous. For instance, I grew up in Compton when there were just a few witnesses, but soon this area great incredibly fast and almost every other year they were dividing the congegation and dividing up the territory. There were so many witnesses that the territory got worked almost every single week. It was hard on pioneers who were given like two blocks of their own territory.

But this spilled out into public as well. Many youth were motivated to pioneer. But to get in their time, they had to start early and do "street work", which meant standing out in front of do-nut shops that opened early. There was one do-nut shop right near the Kingdom Hall, and on any given morning there were lines of witnesses all around the do-nut shop. More witnesses than customers. I was sooo embarrassed. Some elder should hae limited the number of witnesses working any business out of respect for that business. But it wasn't done. Plus some of the brothers were pioneers from other congregations which meant little, because the congregations were clustered together. It was nice to see the zeal, but this was ridiculous.

This was clearly a case where spending more time in the "field" wasn't needed. That's why pioneers like myself, actually longed to go "where the need was greater", which I did one summer.

But even then, there is a temptation to pad the hours. For instance, I went to serve in Magnolia, Arkansas when I was 16. There you had to travel a couple of hours to outlying book studies which only had a handful of witnesses in another town. Further, we were not permitted to work the white homes, only the black ones. (I was in the black congregation) Back then the whites and blacks were still separated in the small Southern communities.

At any rate, the territory was vast and they had days when you'd drive for hours to get to little pockets of blacks in these small towns. So most of the time was spent driving and talking and chatting in the car. But, if you didn't start your witnessing work in the local town, you'd lose all those hours driving to these towns in the field. So, we always started with some call or street work in town so we could count the hours spent driving to the territory. So if you were pioneering, you'd get your hours in but you probably only talked to like 3 or 4 isolated people in these little towns.

Anyway, I know how it is when you have all those magazines to get rid of and you run out of ideas and start being creative.

I shouldn't tell this, but some young pioneers where I lived in Compton, figured that if they were "advertising" they could count the time. So for some of their time they would put the Watchtower on their dash board while they were driving around. So when they were driving around they were "counting time." So the issue of just "counting time" and"making time count" was something understood by most.

I'll say this. I was very young, gay to most people though I didn't realize it myself. So I was in a lot of scenarios entering homes of men who liked young boys. As I look back, I can see their interest in the magazines or a sermon. They would invite me in to their homes and sometimes compromised activity would take place. As I look back I realize it was a gay scenario. But also, women! I was a young black male alone and one woman wanted to have her Bible study in her bedroom. She was scantilly dressed. No husband at home. I only casually thought of how inapproriate that was. Most times they wanted you to make the move. They wouldn't do much but provide the opportunity.

Since then, women are not allowed to go from door to door alone and even young men are cautioned to always have a companion in the field, simply because it is simply dangerous.

Memories like these make me feel so relieved I'm out of the clutches of that religion, which is clearly now out of Jehovah's favor.

LS

43

I don't get this...Jesus' birth and death

by poopsiecakes in

forgive me if this topic has been raised before - and i'm still working it out in my head so bear with me.... conventional religions, including jw's, teach that jesus was 30 when he was baptized and began his ministry which lasted 3 years.

the year of jesus' death is said to be ad 33, which would make him 33. and that's what i've always understood.... even the wt of april 2011 says that according to 'modern calculations' the year of his birth is thought to be 2 bc and wikipedia says possibly as far back as 7 bc.

i've never heard anyone argue the fact that there's no way these dates add up.

Larsinger58

STICK TO THE BASICS. THIS IS COMPLICATED, I'LL ADMIT.

1. Luke 22:7 says Jesus sent out the disciples the same day the lambs were killed. He joined them after sunset. So no matter what, we know the passover meal was eaten on a different day than when he sent his disciples out.

This contradicts what the WTS is claiming, which is the lambs were killed between sundown and nightfall, which is when they interpret "between the two evenings." Of course, this contradicts our historical reference from Josephus who clearly says the lambs were killed at Jerusalem between the "ninth and 11th hours" which is between 3 and 5 p.m. Of course the WTS deals with this by saying Jesus sent out the 2 disciples on the 13th, and they prepared everything for the meal except the killing of lamb, which was killed after sundown. Completely contradicting scripture. But even so, again, it is clear that between the time he sent them out, even if it was right after sundown, it would not be until the following sundown that he ate the passover meal, keeping in mind that the day they were sent out must be the day the lambs are killed. The lambs are killed on a different day than passover is eaten.

2. Jesus' trial was at noon but it also got dark at noon. In between the noon trial and the noon darkness, you have a third-hour impalement. The third hour is 9 o'clock. Obviously, he must have been impaled at 9 p.m. since that is the first third-hour following a trial at noon. Bottom line is, that you need two days for this. The trial has to be a day before it gets dark. Once you face that, then you know Jesus could not have died the same day he ate the passover meal.

3. The official passover Seder meal is eaten on the same night the Jews leavae Egypt. The Jews leave Egypt on the 15th after midnight. That means that Jesus was arrested on the 15th which is ALWAYS A SABBATH DAY. ALWAYS. Jesus died on a day of perparation not a sabbath day, thus Jesus could not have died on the same day he eats passover.

Now some are confused because they think the date changes at sundown. But when the Jews first left Egypt, they changed the date at midnight as did the Egyptians. Therefore, when the DATES are in the context, the Bible has to use two different dates to describe a sabbath day. That is, if the date did not change until midnight when the Israelites first left, then the sabbath day of the first day of UFC must have begun on Nisan 14th in the evening. The Israelites left on the 15th, but that's after midnight when the date changed. No problem. Thus we note Exodus begins the 1st day of UFC on the fourteenth in the evening.

Exodus 12:18 In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month, in the evening YOU are to eat unfermented cakes down till the twenty-first day of the month in the evening."

43

I don't get this...Jesus' birth and death

by poopsiecakes in

forgive me if this topic has been raised before - and i'm still working it out in my head so bear with me.... conventional religions, including jw's, teach that jesus was 30 when he was baptized and began his ministry which lasted 3 years.

the year of jesus' death is said to be ad 33, which would make him 33. and that's what i've always understood.... even the wt of april 2011 says that according to 'modern calculations' the year of his birth is thought to be 2 bc and wikipedia says possibly as far back as 7 bc.

i've never heard anyone argue the fact that there's no way these dates add up.

Larsinger58

You can't have a noon-time trial, followed by a third-hour (9 p.m.) impalement followed by a noon-time darkness. That takes two days. But when we check the Greek syntax at John 19:14 we find it actually indicates this was the day before "preparation" instead of on preparation as falsely translated.

It's true that John 19:14 states --

"Now it was preparation of the passover; it was about the sixth hour."

--- but do you also find a problem with the Greek syntax at Mark 15:42 and at Luke 23:54?

Mark 15:42: "Now as it was already late in the afternoon, and since it was Preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath,"

Luke 23:54: "Now it was the day of Preparation, and the evening light of the sabbath was approaching."

Absolutely, no problem. What you are missing is that there are two special "high sabbaths" of passover. Let me quote for you Exodus 12:

Exodus 12:16 And on the first day there is to take place for YOU a holy convention, and on the seventh day a holy convention. No work is to be done on them. Only what every soul needs to eat, that alone may be done for YOU ."

So you see, there are two sabbath days of passover. Likewise there are two preparation days for passover, Nisan 14th and Nisan 20th. So you have a choice. Jesus must die on a Thursday, "three nights" before Saturday night, and in 33 CE Thursday was a day of preparation. That's the day jesus died.

BUT WAIT A MINUTE! How clever of you to avoid the issue. I brought up a very important point which you avoid. Which I will reassert and request your response:

You can't have a noon-time trial, followed by a third-hour (9 p.m.) impalement followed by a noon-time darkness. That takes two days. But when we check the Greek syntax at John 19:14 we find it actually indicates this was the day before "preparation" instead of on preparation as falsely translated.

So please explain this to me. A noon time trial followed by a third-hour impalement followed by a noon-time darkness, all on the same day. That's what you need to explain. How can all this happen on one day? His trial is at noon. It gets dark at noon and lots of things happen in between. So what's going on per your interpretation/explanation. I'm curious. It seems to me you need two days here. You apparently get past this in some way, I'm just wondering how you do that.

Thanks!

43

I don't get this...Jesus' birth and death

by poopsiecakes in

forgive me if this topic has been raised before - and i'm still working it out in my head so bear with me.... conventional religions, including jw's, teach that jesus was 30 when he was baptized and began his ministry which lasted 3 years.

the year of jesus' death is said to be ad 33, which would make him 33. and that's what i've always understood.... even the wt of april 2011 says that according to 'modern calculations' the year of his birth is thought to be 2 bc and wikipedia says possibly as far back as 7 bc.

i've never heard anyone argue the fact that there's no way these dates add up.

Larsinger58

Second, the Jews didn't use a midnight-to-midnight reckoning of the day in use today, for unlike what happens when the clock strikes midnight according to our midnight-to-midnight way of reckoning a day, Thursday did not become Friday, Nisan 15 after the stroke of midnight, but at dawn, or at 6:00 am, Thursday became Friday, Nisan 14, for according to the Jews' evening-to-evening way of reckoning a day, Nisan 14 began the previous evening (Thursday, at 6:00 pm) and ended the next evening (Friday, at 6:00 pm), so that Friday, Nisan 14 ended and Friday, N

Sorry, but this is not correct. The Jews actually did change the date at Midnight as the Egyptians did when they first came out of Egypt. Thus the first day of unfermented cakes is said to begin on the 14th "in the evening". The Jews left Egypt on the 15th, the same night they ate passover. So either the date changed at midnight or passover was eaten on the 15th. Later on the date was considered to change at sunset, but that's a later custom.

LS

43

I don't get this...Jesus' birth and death

by poopsiecakes in

forgive me if this topic has been raised before - and i'm still working it out in my head so bear with me.... conventional religions, including jw's, teach that jesus was 30 when he was baptized and began his ministry which lasted 3 years.

the year of jesus' death is said to be ad 33, which would make him 33. and that's what i've always understood.... even the wt of april 2011 says that according to 'modern calculations' the year of his birth is thought to be 2 bc and wikipedia says possibly as far back as 7 bc.

i've never heard anyone argue the fact that there's no way these dates add up.

Larsinger58

You speak of there being "three nights," but Jesus was dead for only two nights, for the Bible indicates that he would rise "on the third day," and just as Jesus had foretold, he was "raised up the third day." (Matthew 16:21, 17:23, 20:19, Luke 24:46; 1 Corinthians 15:4) Where ever did you get this idea that there were "three nights"?

ROFL! How is it that you have so much knowledge of all the scriptures yet have to ask where the reference to the "three nights" is? That's amazing.

Matthew 12:40 says Jesus would be in the grave for "three days and three nights." That's where the "three nights" comes from. Why didn't you look it up in the concordance?

LS

43

I don't get this...Jesus' birth and death

by poopsiecakes in

forgive me if this topic has been raised before - and i'm still working it out in my head so bear with me.... conventional religions, including jw's, teach that jesus was 30 when he was baptized and began his ministry which lasted 3 years.

the year of jesus' death is said to be ad 33, which would make him 33. and that's what i've always understood.... even the wt of april 2011 says that according to 'modern calculations' the year of his birth is thought to be 2 bc and wikipedia says possibly as far back as 7 bc.

i've never heard anyone argue the fact that there's no way these dates add up.

Larsinger58

@Larsinger58:

Jesus died on Thursday, Nisan 20th, 33 CE, after a 3.5-year ministry.

So are you suggesting that Nisan 20 was the day on which the passover was celebrated in the year 33 AD? Are you suggesting that Nisan 20 is when the passover is celebrated in any year?

No. Sorry, you totally misunderstood. Let me be as direct as possible.

Jesus sent the disciples out on the day the lambs were killed, which is Nisan 14th. The lambs were killed beginning at 3 p.m. at the temple per Josephus. Nisan 14th is the day of preparation.

Jesus joined them after sunset to eat the traditional passover after sundown. Once sundown occurs it is the sabbath day. Note that the same night the Jews ate passover is the same night they leave Egypt. They leave Egypt on the 15th, which is a sabbath day. That means that sabbath day included the passover meal since the sabbath day began after sundown. IT'S THE SAME DAY. The same day they eat passover is the same sabbath day they leave Egypt.

So if we superimpose the time the Jews were leaving Egypt on the 15th, shortly after eating passover, to the time of Jesus, then Jesus would have been arrested around the time the Jews were leaving Egypt! That is, on the 15th. That's very simple.

Noting this, Jesus could not die the same day he eats passover, because you cannot execute someone on a sabbath day. Further, the Bible says he died on a day of preparation. By the time he was arrested, it was long after preparation.

So what choices do we have. Our only conclusion can be that it must have been on the following day of preparation that he died. The next day of preparation was on Thursday, Nisan 20th.

So, NO, I am not saying passover was eaten on Nisan 20th, I'm saying Jesus died on Nisan 20th, which means he did not die the same day he eats passover, which many are confused about.

LS

43

I don't get this...Jesus' birth and death

by poopsiecakes in

forgive me if this topic has been raised before - and i'm still working it out in my head so bear with me.... conventional religions, including jw's, teach that jesus was 30 when he was baptized and began his ministry which lasted 3 years.

the year of jesus' death is said to be ad 33, which would make him 33. and that's what i've always understood.... even the wt of april 2011 says that according to 'modern calculations' the year of his birth is thought to be 2 bc and wikipedia says possibly as far back as 7 bc.

i've never heard anyone argue the fact that there's no way these dates add up.

Larsinger58

Larsinger58,

Interesting timeline...just curious...where did you get the death of Herod as being in 1 AD? Everything I have read has his death being somewhere between 4 and 2 BC. Your number makes more sense in supporting the 33 AD date, but I have not been able to find a supporting date for Herod's death of 1 AD.

TYA

As I explained, Herod gives two rulership dates for Herod. One is 37 years from 40, based on when he allegedly was told he would become king, and one that is 34 years from 37, which represents when he officially became king. When history is revised, eclipses, wars and coins and outside histories become problematic since they are clues to discovering the revisionism. So to hide this, often an explanation for evidence of the original reign is introduced. For instance, if you were going to introduce a generation of 30 years into history for some reason. Perhaps to expand the reign of some king you were trying to impress. To help hide this, you would not come up with new names in the genealogy tree, but you would repeat names. if you repeat names, then it is hard to tell which king is actually being referred to. If you have four generations of fathers and sons all named "James" then it is difficult to observe a contradiction. You've got lots of choices to harmonize the record.=

Likewise, Herod minted coins up to his 37th year. So if you wanted to reduce his rulership by 3 years, you'll have a problem explaining the 37-year coinages. So what you do, to cover this, is invent a fake rulership of 37 years. Then when historians discover the 37-year coins, they can link it to the fake 37-year rule. Of course, why would Herod make coins in his unofficial 37th year rather than his official 37th year, that is, when he officially became king in year 37? So a double rulership is always a "red flag" suggesting revisionism.

Second, the Bible clearly contradicts the popular history of Herod dying in 4 BC or 3 BC. Jesus has to be over 1 year of age when Herod dies and Jesus is not born until 2 BC.

So we exercise the option of presuming the unofficial rule of 37 years was actually the original 37-year rule beginning in 37. We then compare that to the 2 BC birth of Christ. When we begin the rule of Herod in 37 BC and end it 37 years later, we get the date of Shebat 2, 1 AD. This confirms Jesus' birth in 2 BC.

Secondly, whenever you see an eclipse introduced into history, it is usually a clue to the true dating. This is clearly what Josephus is up to when he related that event of the eclipse, linked to an annual Jewish fast day, just 21 days before Herod's death.

Now Josephus claims he ruled for 34 years from 37, which means he would have died on Shebat 2, 3 BC. That's the fake date. But there is no eclipse the previous month of Tebet, which is when the annual Jewish Fast of the 10th occurs. Eclipses occur around the 14th of the month so you have reason to believe this eclipse might have actually occurred and that Josephus is using it to correctly date the death of Herod, which was revised to another time. That is, the 34-year rule from 37 having Herod die in 3 BC doesn't work. By contrast, when you apply a 37-year rule from 37 BC with Herod's death on Shebat 2, 1 AD, there is a lunar eclipse that occurs 4 days after the Fast of Tebet 10 in 1 BC. Remember, there is no zero Roman year so 18 days after the eclipse on Tebet 14, 1 BC, is Shebat 2, 1 AD. So Josephus is giving us a clue based on this eclipse to confirm the true dating for the death of Herod.

The eclipse the historians focus on is that of March 13/14, 4 BC. But the eclipse must occur 18 days before Herod's death, just 4 days after a Jewish fast day. March 13/14 is a month prior to passover but some 6 weeks or 10 weeks after Herod's death on Shebat 2, depending upon whetehr there is an intercalary month between month 12 and month 1 when passover is celebrated. So it doesn't work and never has worked. In fact, a 4 BC eclipse contradicts Josephus himself.

So even with the eclipse you have two choices: 1) You can presume the eclipse is totally spurious and never occurred, since it doesn't work for his official 3 BC death, or 2) You can presume it is a clue to the true year of Herod's death and thus matching the eclipse reference to the month of Tebet would give us the true potential year of Herod's death. One year an eclipse occurs in Tebet is 1 BC which matches Herod's death in 1 AD.

Then, we have Quirinius. It seems while the Judean records were revised, the official Roman records were not. Thus there is a list of the governor's over Judea during these times. The published list leaves the governor blank for the 4-year period from 4 BC to 1 BC. The official list claims "unknown" for that period. Yeah, right! This is the critical time of the census that took place at the time of Jesus' birth, so of course, it was Quirinius. The following video shows you this list.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TepIl6_CkTY

So even if you look at alternative secular records, you get scenarios that independently would provide the correct date of Herod's death on Shebat 2, 1 AD.

IN SUMMARY: The lunar eclipse and rule of Quirnius are confirmed to match a 2 BC birth of Christ. Claims Herod died in other years is based on revisionism.

LS