Butterflyleia85 said:
peacedog... "a real Bible... eh" nope I like using fake bibles. hahaha 144,000 and small number that I was mentioning or 144,000 and small group that JW's teach, that you believe to be in "heaven"?? and you mentioned real Bible will did you forget all the scriptures that use "earth" as a hope for the future? 1914 is not in the Bible it was a prodiction date, duh. Just like Trinity isn't in the Bible. Hell is grave because yelp "I said so". lol I'm God and my word means something. lol jk jk Any who... the Bible uses words that refured hell as burning in fire... thus grave will be done away with. That's what I was pointed to in the Bible. And I do like your scriptures... Very good. According the the WT$, they taught Jesus was here teaching his disciples God's word and that he was God's Son. I wonder where you got that WT$ says Jesus is teaching disciples pagan concepts?? I don't believe in disfellowshipment, judging other, and 1914... or any other for sure dates they set.
Let me respond to each of your points:
>> "a real Bible... eh nope I like using fake bibles"
Yes, a real Bible. As in a bible produced by actual scholars of the Greek language, unlike the NWT.
>> "144,000 and small number that I was mentioning or 144,000 and small group that JW's teach, that you believe to be in "heaven"??"
I'm not sure I follow you here.
My original point was that there is not a "small number that goes to heaven" as you originally stated. Revelation puts both groups (great crowd and 144k) in heaven. Both are "before the throne". The angels, the seven spirits, the 24 elders, the seven lamps, the great crowd, and the 144k - all are "before the throne".
Could you show me the verse that says the "great crowd" is on the earth and not in heaven? Then I can compare that verse with the verses that say the "great crowd" is "standing before the throne" and that they serve God "day and night in his temple" (Gr: naos = temple sanctuary; the Holy place and the Holy of Holies)
>> "did you forget all the scriptures that use "earth" as a hope for the future"
If you have scriptures to share, let's see them. I offered two verses that show conclusively that the future hope of believers is heaven:
If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them. (Heb 11:15,16)
I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. (Matt 8:11)
Here's two more:
I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body. (Phil 1:23-24)
Their mind is on earthly things. But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ (Phil 3:19-20)
I also referred to verses in Revelation that put the great crowd and the 144k in the same location: before the throne, in heaven.
To prove your WT belief, you'll need to refute these verses. I await your response.
>> "1914 is not in the Bible it was a prodiction date, duh."
Yes, it was a prediction. A prediction for Armageddon. You said "I still don't understand why 1914 is off". It's "off" because Armageddon didn't happen. In fact nothing happened in October 1914.
Maybe I misunderstood you. I thought you were saying you don't see anything incorrect with the WT view of 1914.
>> "Just like Trinity isn't in the Bible."
Perhaps the word itself isn't in the bible. Neither is the word "Theocracy". Does that make the concept unscriptural?
>> "the Bible uses words that refured hell as burning in fire... thus grave will be done away with."
Lol, that's crazy talk. Seriously. The bible doesn't refer to hell as "burning in fire". It refers to hell as burning *WITH* fire.
The bible speaks of people as being in AGONY in this burning place. How does a person being in AGONY and TORMENT in any way indicate that the "grave will be done away with"?
Your argument makes no sense.
>> "I wonder where you got that WT$ says Jesus is teaching disciples pagan concepts"
According to the WT$, the origins of a fiery hell are PAGAN: "Early evidence of the fiery aspect of Christendom's hell is found in the religion of ancient Egypt" (Reasoning book).
So tell me why the Son of God would propagate these PAGAN DOCTRINES:
"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.' But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. (Luke 16:22-25)
"And if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around his neck. If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, where "'their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.'
(Mark 9:42-48)
It's absurd to believe that the Son of God would teach his disciples using Pagan concepts and doctrines. But that's exactly what you and the WT$ would have people believe.
The Reasoning book goes on to say: "But the real roots of this God-dishonoring doctrine go much deeper. The fiendish concepts associated with a hell of torment slander God and originate with the chief slanderer of God (the devil, which name means "Slanderer"), the one whom Jesus Christ called "the father of the lie."
WT$ says: "the fiendish concepts associated with a hell of torment slander God"
Jesus said: "In hell, where he was in torment"
Nuff said.
peace
