Trinity, 144,000, Earthly Paradise, and 1914 ...hmmm

by Butterflyleia85 26 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Butterflyleia85
    Butterflyleia85

    http://144000.110mb.com/index.html

    ok I read this for 2 hours now, rereading it at least 6 times... still don't get it.

    I still don't believe in the Trinity as God Jesus and Holy Spirit being one. I just don't get it!

    I am starting to see how the number 144,000 can be symbolic sence the rest of Revelation is symbolic. But would this imply maybe that there is a small number that goes to heaven.

    I still believe in the Earthly Paradise. It just seems to unreal to put me in a heaven but on new God managed earth that I can see.

    I still don't understand why 1914 is off. Never really understood how they got that number in the first place. It's almost as complicated as believing in the Trinity.

    I don't believe in hell but nobody really argued that one on this board that I saw, so I'm good. Hell is symbolic meaning grave.

    ...Geez I wonder if the Society made a new Revelation book again. Because I remember a couple of years back they had us tape over parts of the Revelation and then stick in some new words.

    All I know is that the "truth" should be firm and no change in doctrine. That's what I got so far...

    So what's your belief system? (No judging here just curious)

  • isaacaustin
    isaacaustin

    ok I read this for 2 hours now, rereading it at least 6 times... still don't get it.

    I still don't believe in the Trinity as God Jesus and Holy Spirit being one. I just don't get it!

    My reply: While I do I would rather give a more detailed answer on a day I have more time to write. I don't feel yes or no does justice to this issue.

    I am starting to see how the number 144,000 can be symbolic sence the rest of Revelation is symbolic. But would this imply maybe that there is a small number that goes to heaven.

    I still believe in the Earthly Paradise. It just seems to unreal to put me in a heaven but on new God managed earth that I can see.

    My reply: It seems you are thinking in terms of physical location. What did Adam and Eve lose? One on one fellowship with God. Sin separated them from God, from his very presence. Revelation 21 and 22 speaks of New Jerusalem coming down from heaven and God residing with man. At this point heaven (which is God's presence) will be one with earth. All Chirstians will be in one location.

    I still don't understand why 1914 is off. Never really understood how they got that number in the first place. It's almost as complicated as believing in the Trinity.

    My reply: Jesus in Matt 28 stated that all power and authority was given him. How could he have received anything more in 1914?

    1914 is arrived at thru a series of unrelated texts linked together- all of which take leaps of logic to associate with each other.

    I don't believe in hell but nobody really argued that one on this board that I saw, so I'm good. Hell is symbolic meaning grave.

    My reply: I do not see the basis to symbolize hell. But that could also become a lengthy discussion and I have limited time right now. PM me if you like to discuss further.

    ...Geez I wonder if the Society made a new Revelation book again. Because I remember a couple of years back they had us tape over parts of the Revelation and then stick in some new words.

    All I know is that the "truth" should be firm and no change in doctrine. That's what I got so far...

    So what's your belief system? (No judging here just curious)

  • BluesBrother
    BluesBrother

    It takes time to change a whole belief system. It takes time for the effects of WT thinking to wear off. I still can find myself slipping into J W mode, especially in their company.

    Take the time. Relax about it, let it come at its own pace.

    Whatever you decide will be uniquely your own, and may not remain unchanged . This is a whole new world of thinking, a world where nobody legislates what you have to think. That can be harder to do, but its a lot more fun!

  • Chalam
    Chalam

    Hello Butterfly,

    ok I read this for 2 hours now, rereading it at least 6 times... still don't get it.

    Try some of the New Testament instead?

    I still don't believe in the Trinity as God Jesus and Holy Spirit being one. I just don't get it!

    OK, try this chapter John 17

    What do you think the 'in you", "in me" and "in them" is talking about?

    I am starting to see how the number 144,000 can be symbolic sence the rest of Revelation is symbolic. But would this imply maybe that there is a small number that goes to heaven.

    Personally (and I guess I stand for the majority of Christians) I believe the 144, 000 is literal, 12, 000 from each tribe of Israel, just like it says Revelation 7

    No-one will be in heaven come the arrival of the New Jerusalem, not even God.

    Revelation 21:2-3 (New International Version)

    2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God.

    I still believe in the Earthly Paradise. It just seems to unreal to put me in a heaven but on new God managed earth that I can see.

    Agreed (nothing to do with the WT "paradise earth" I might add)!

    I still don't understand why 1914 is off. Never really understood how they got that number in the first place. It's almost as complicated as believing in the Trinity.

    Forget it, 1914 is just another false JW date "understood" by 7 million JWs. The Trinity however is worth getting to grips with, 2 billion of us believe this doctrine.

    I don't believe in hell but nobody really argued that one on this board that I saw, so I'm good. Hell is symbolic meaning grave.

    I have put the biblical case for the second death many times. "Hell is symbolic meaning grave" is just a WT lie, just like the rest of them.

    ...Geez I wonder if the Society made a new Revelation book again. Because I remember a couple of years back they had us tape over parts of the Revelation and then stick in some new words.

    They add to and twist scripture to their own destruction Revelation 22:18 2 Peter 3:16

    All I know is that the "truth" should be firm and no change in doctrine. That's what I got so far...

    Indeed, the truth cannot change and if it does it wasn't the truth.

    Blessings,

    Stephen

  • Black Sheep
    Black Sheep
    I still don't believe in the Trinity as God Jesus and Holy Spirit being one. I just don't get it!

    I don't believe it either, but I do understand how they arrive at it and I can argue for it. I haven't read the link you provided. I suggest that if you read it six times and didn't understand it, that you would be better to try to find someone who can explain it in logic you can understand.

    1914 is easy. It requires that Jerusalem fell in 607. JWs will throw bucket loads of of stuff that sounds like it is true at you, but if you look a bit closer, it is all supported by assumptions. 607 is contradicted by the list of Neo-Babylonian kings and JWs will do anything to weasel out of discussing this subject. That is why you see Scholar typing up pages and pages of anything that doesn't address that issue. It is purely distraction.

    http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/bible/55372/1/586-587-the-K-I-S-S-approach-no-VAT4956-Ptolemy-Josephus-needed

    Cheers

    Chris

  • JosephMalik
    JosephMalik

    Butterflyleia85,

    Lets see how your views agree with mine for a change.

    Butterfly: I still don't believe in the Trinity as God Jesus and Holy Spirit being one. I just don't get it!

    I agree. I took a lot of time to study both sides and found problems in both. But I came up with this: http://home.earthlink.net/~jmalik/beytrin.htm It may not be complete or perfect but at least I am not supporting the errors I see saw in both views.

    Butterfly: I am starting to see how the number 144,000 can be symbolic since the rest of Revelation is symbolic. But would this imply maybe that there is a small number that goes to heaven.

    I agree in part. With the 144,000 symbolic, Yes. With this small number that goes to heaven, No! There being only one Kingdom, and our Lord returning in the flesh to administer it on the throne of David, then everyone resurrected to be in it for any reason would be right here on earth. Immortal humans yes but humans nevertheless. It’s that word heaven that gets in the way of such thinking. Jews did not use this word the way many do today. To them it meant God for the most part or what God sanctions.

    Butterfly: I still believe in the Earthly Paradise. It just seems to unreal to put me in a heaven but on new God managed earth that I can see.

    I agree. Paradise, Kingdom, not much difference except for who is in charge of running it and what their position is in it.

    Butterfly: I still don't understand why 1914 is off. Never really understood how they got that number in the first place. It's almost as complicated as believing in the Trinity.

    I agree. There is nothing to it, just a manipulation of the texts that our Lord never taught or intended for anyone else to teach either. That is why he said that no man knows the day or hour. A false teaching in other words, not approved by Christ.

    Butterfly: I don't believe in hell but nobody really argued that one on this board that I saw, so I'm good. Hell is symbolic meaning grave.

    I agree. Nothing to hell but a hell of a lot made out of symbolic representations of it. To say nothing that it keeps getting confused with condemnation.

    Butterfly: All I know is that the "truth" should be firm and no change in doctrine. That's what I got so far...So what's your belief system? (No judging here just curious)

    I agree. Not much different from yours on these points.

    Joseph

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento

    Butterfly,

    I do not believe in the doctrine of the trinity, though I do believe in the perfect union of the Father, Son and the Holy spirit.

    The doctrine seems "forced" and is going beyond what is taught in the NT, but that is ok as long as it is a mode of descriping/understanding the relationship between God, Son and the HS.

    Three distinct personalities that are in perfect union, ex:

    Your hand: The whole hand is god, Jesus is the palm, the HS is the back, in perfect union with each other.

    Is the back of the hand the hand? yes, is it the whole hand? no.

    The others have answered 1914 and 144K.

  • Deputy Dog
    Deputy Dog

    butterfly

    I do believe in the trinity. But, not as discibed on that webpage. It's not that complicated.

  • glenster
    glenster

    What I have on the mainstream view vs. the JWs leaders about the Father, Son,
    and Spirit, the JWs leaders' claims of being the only rule-makers of a literal
    144,000, etc., is at the next link.
    http://glenster1.webs.com/gtjbrooklynindex.htm

    Elsewhere there, you can learn how to do wallrides in VC, etc.

  • peacedog
    peacedog

    >> I still don't believe in the Trinity as God Jesus and Holy Spirit being one. I just don't get it!

    Have you read the Bible? I'm not talking about the NWT. A real Bible? Doing so would go a long way towards understanding the concept.

    >> I am starting to see how the number 144,000 can be symbolic sence the rest of Revelation is symbolic. But would this imply maybe that there is a small number that goes to heaven.

    No. Reason being, both groups are portrayed as being in the same location. Heaven.

    >> I still believe in the Earthly Paradise. It just seems to unreal to put me in a heaven but on new God managed earth that I can see.

    Both concepts seem pretty unreal to me. But in terms of what the Bible teaches, it's pretty obvious to me that the Bible points to a heavenly hope for the future:

    If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them. (Heb 11:15,16)

    I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. (Matt 8:11)

    >> I still don't understand why 1914 is off. Never really understood how they got that number in the first place. It's almost as complicated as believing in the Trinity.

    You don't understand why it's off? Show me 1914 in the Bible. It's not there.

    >> I don't believe in hell but nobody really argued that one on this board that I saw, so I'm good. Hell is symbolic meaning grave.

    Because you say so?

    Again, not necessarily a reflection of my beliefs, but the clearest teachings on hell in the Bible come from Jesus himself. You tell me why he taught in such terms:

    "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.' But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. (Luke 16:22-25)

    "And if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around his neck. If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, where "'their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.'
    (Mark 9:42-48)

    Now according to the WT$, Jesus was here teaching his disciples using pagan concepts. I wonder why the son of God would do such a thing?

    Just an observation, but you certainly seem to be clinging to WT$ teachings. Which WT doctrines do you no longer believe?

    peace

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