Posts by peacedog

4

Steelers get stripped

by Dark Side in

july 31, 2010. .

steelers to lose super bowl trophies.

pittsburgh, pa. the nfl record 6-time super bowl champion pittsburgh steelers will soon be losing half of those trophies.

peacedog

lol @ "This is satire".

Thanks for the heads-up.

:)

457

TRINITY Challenge for JW's, Unitarians and Anyone Else

by UnDisfellowshipped in

trinity challenge using only the new world translation of the holy scriptures -- let us debate and reason on the scriptures about whether god almighty is a trinity, or is only one person.. on another thread, bane said that we know for a fact immediately that nearly all religions other than jehovah's witnesses are false because almost all of them believe in the trinity.

and bane claims he can "out-scripturize" anyone with the help of jehovah.

* the son was praying to the father.

peacedog

djeggnog:

I didn't change the meaning of any of the verses I quoted from Hebrews chapter 1 or in Hebrews chapter 2. Not really.

"Not really", huh? Convincing response.

As I laid out in a previous post, the verse without your commentary excludes ANY angel; the verse with your commentary INCLUDES an angel.

You offered up some examples (NBA, Kentucky Derby), but in each case you've significantly altered the structure of the sentence, omitting a significant element that appears in the NWT (which appears to be your bible of choice):

nwt: "to which one of the angels did he ever say"

eggnog: "to which of the horses will the purse be given"?
and: "to which NBA team will the championship trophy be awarded"

The verse in Hebrews doesn't say "to which of the angels WILL GOD SAY.....". This is a completely different sentence.

The verse in Hebrews says "to which of the angels DID GOD *EVER* SAY....."

A proper comparable (to the sentence in the nwt) would be something like: "To which of the athletes did Dr. Smith EVER administer steroids?"

Note the difference between this sentence and one that omits the word "EVER": "To which of the athletes did Dr. Smith administer steroids?"

Do you see the difference?

To which of the athletes did Dr. Smith administer steroids?

To which of the athletes did Dr. Smith EVER administer steroids?

The second sentence includes a negative assertion and it is this negative assertion that tells us the question is a RHETORICAL QUESTION. This is why many Bible translations render the sentence as an equivalent assertive statement, ie: "God never said to any angel...."

You go on to harp on the significance of the word "one" in Hebrews 1:5 and 13:

Looking at [1], the words "which one of the angels" mean that only one angel is being singled out from all of the other angels. If the verse had said "which two ... angels," then this would indicate that two angels are being distinguished from among the rest of the angels.

Presumably you are unaware that the NWT has inserted the word "one" into the verse. Grab your Kingdom Interlinear or just compare with any unbiased translation. This being the case, there is no reason to discuss the word.

Does it not give you pause that you must RE-WORD the sentence, or insert (or ignore) words in order to have it line up with your theology? It really should. So far I've seen you insert the word "other"; I've seen you ignore the word "ever"; I've seen you build a case around the word "one", which is an insertion by the nwt....

Not to mention your entire argument is based on the faulty premise that these are NOT rhetorical questions when every Greek scholar on the planet would tell you they are.....

You accused me in this last post of yours of being dishonest, you have impugned my motives in adding the word "other" in my explanation of Hebrews 1:5 and Hebrews 1:13,

No. I didn't. You inferred that. And it's not important, so let's not get sidetracked.

The explanations I have provided here do not 'reek' of anything having a foul-smelling odor

I said nothing about foul-smelling. Once again, you inferred. Once again, it's not important. Why are you bringing it up?

Why wouldn't an angel be appointed by God to sit at His right hand?

Erm, because Hebrews 1:13,14 says: "God never said to any of the angels, "Sit at my right side until I make your enemies into a footstool for you!" Angels are merely spirits sent to serve people who are going to be saved."

Repetition for emphasis:

"God never said to any of the angels, 'sit at my right hand...'. Angels are merely spirits sent to serve..."

John 1:1 means, that Jesus existed at the beginning of Jehovah's creative works

If this is true, then when Deut 32 was penned, Jesus existed, was "a god" (according to you) and was "with God". In which case you have a problem, given that Jah said THERE ARE NO GODS TOGETHER WITH HIM.

Now that's unfortunate, @peacedog. Do the agreed-upon terms of this discussion/debate no longer matter to you? Do you feel you're losing ground and feel a change of strategy is now in order

I have no idea what you're talking about.

Given that you're a JW, and someone who has no qualms about inserting or ignoring words in the text, I'm making about as much headway as I expected to...

TRINITY Challenge using ONLY the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures -- Let us debate and reason on the Scriptures about whether God Almighty is a Trinity, or is only One Person.

I see. My bad. I missed this, and certainly never agreed to it. Have fun with that.

You next go on a rant about the CEV. I believe I've answered your concerns already. The text at Hebrews 1:5 and 1:13 are rhetorical questions and as such may be properly rendered as an assertive statement. I'm sorry you seem to have difficulty in comprehending a rhetorical question or at least the significance of a rhetorical question. No one else seems to be having this difficulty. All I can suggest is that you do some research on rhetorical questions and negative assertions..

Secondly, the CEV is hardly the only bible translation to render the rhetorical questions as assertive statements:

NLT:

5For God never said to any angel what he said to Jesus: “You are my Son. Today I have become your Father.” God also said, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son.”

13And God never said to any of the angels, “Sit in the place of honor at my right hand until I humble your enemies, making them a footstool under your feet.”

NCV:

5This is because God never said to any of the angels, "You are my Son. Today I have become your Father." Nor did God say of any angel, "I will be his Father, and he will be my Son."

13And God never said this to an angel: "Sit by me at my right side until I put your enemies under your control."

GW:

5God never said to any of his angels, “You are my Son. Today I have become your Father.” And God never said to any of his angels, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son.”

13But God never said to any of the angels, “Sit in the highest position in heaven until I make your enemies your footstool.”

NIRV:

5 God never said to any of the angels, "You are my Son. Today I have become your Father." Or, "I will be his Father. And he will be my Son."

13 God never said to an angel, "Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies under your control."

You might also consider the Worldwide English rendering:

5Did God ever say to any of the angels, `You are my Son, and I am your Father today'? Did God ever say to an angel, `I will be your Father and you will be my Son'?

13But did God ever say to any of the angels, `Sit down beside me until I put your enemies under you'?

...and The Message:

Did God ever say to an angel, "You're my Son; today I celebrate you" or "I'm his Father, he's my Son"? When he presents his honored Son to the world, he says, "All angels must worship him."

I suppose all of these translations are biased too, huh? (But the NWT isn't when it inserts words into Colossians that simply don't exist in the greek text... lol)

You quoted the KJV (and ASV):

5For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

13But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

Tell me. How do you interpret the wording "at any time"? What do these words mean to you?

"To which of the angels has he said AT ANY TIME..."

Do the think the translators of the CEV feel they have a duty to include their own theological understanding of what they believe the apostle Paul to be saying at Hebrews 1:13 in order to help the reader to comprehend the meaning of Paul's words?

Do you believe the translators of the NWT feel they have a duty to include their own theological understanding of what they believe the apostle Paul to be saying at Colossians 1:16 in order to help the reader to comprehend the meaning of Paul's words?

I ask the above in order to demonstrate your own prejudice. When (you think) the CEV does 'X', it's WRONG. When the WTS does 'X', it's RIGHT. So sad...

I believe I already answered you concerns about the CEV translators. Many bible translations render Heb 1:5 and 1:13 as assertive statements because the verses are rhetorical (negative assertion) sentences. It's not about bias. Do some research.

As the apostle John explains at John 2:21, Jesus wasn't referring to his own physical body,

Jesus spoke of a "temple" that would be "destroyed" and that he would "raise" in three days. John said that the "temple" Jesus was referring to was the temple "of his body".

So I guess when his body was destroyed and then raised three days later, it was just a coincidence, huh? Had nothing to do with what Jesus and John were talking about... lol.

Note how the apostle Paul's own words at 1 Corinthians 6:19 makes this point clear: "Do you not know that the body of you people is [the] temple of the holy spirit within you, which you have from God?"

And just how is this point made clear? At John 2:21 Jesus spoke of "the temple of his body". 1 Cor 6:19 speaks of "the temple of the holy spirit within you". Apples and oranges...

Also, Paul makes the very same point at 1 Corinthians 3:16: "Do you not know that you people are God’s temple, and that the spirit of God dwells in you?"

How is this relevant? At John 2:21 Jesus spoke of "the temple of his body". 1 Cor 3:16 speaks of "God's temple". Apples and oranges...

Again I'm reminded of debator's words about ignoring the obviousness of scripture...

1. Temple will be destroyed, 2. in three days I'll raise it, 3. he's talking about the temple of his body.

Pretty obvious, given that his body was destroyed, and three days later, raised.

457

TRINITY Challenge for JW's, Unitarians and Anyone Else

by UnDisfellowshipped in

trinity challenge using only the new world translation of the holy scriptures -- let us debate and reason on the scriptures about whether god almighty is a trinity, or is only one person.. on another thread, bane said that we know for a fact immediately that nearly all religions other than jehovah's witnesses are false because almost all of them believe in the trinity.

and bane claims he can "out-scripturize" anyone with the help of jehovah.

* the son was praying to the father.

peacedog

Think About It:

According to the doctrine of the Trinity:

(1) God is the Father,

and,

(2) Jesus is God.

Therefore, by transitivity, according to the doctrine of the Trinity:

(3) Jesus is the Father.

Yet, according to the doctrine of the Trinity, Jesus is not the Father.

So, according to the doctrine of the Trinity, Jesus both is and is not the Father.

Straw man.

Try this instead:

(1) The Father is God (that is to say the nature of the Father is DEITY)

(2) The Son is God (that is to say the nature of the Son is DEITY)

(3) The Father and the Son have the same nature (DEITY)

Trinitarians know that all heavenly visions and scripture logically point to God & Jesus as being separate persons

Prolly that's why they believe that the Father and Son are separate persons, huh?

Podo:

....if he was one and the same as Jehovah

Another straw man.

Scripturally, he is not "one and the same as Jehovah". His nature is that of the Father - Deity - yet he is positionally subordinate to the Father.

truthlover:

Yes to your statements regarding Jesus returning to the Father (per Ecc 12:7) and raising his own body (John 2:19-21).

when Jesus was created, he too was a spirit, it had nothing to do with god, as such.. you are speaking of Jesus as being the first creation , being god or a god-- so are you saying that Satan is a god also? since he was made by Jehovah/Yhwh??

I don't believe the bible teaches that Jesus was created. I believe the bible teaches that Jesus is Deity, and as such, uncreated.

Consider John 1:3: All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

How much more clearly could it be said?

Unless Jesus created Himself, he is uncreated.

The bible calls Satan "a god", but it also says at Phil 3:19 that "their god is their stomach". There is a big difference between being "a god" and being GOD (DEITY) in nature.

457

TRINITY Challenge for JW's, Unitarians and Anyone Else

by UnDisfellowshipped in

trinity challenge using only the new world translation of the holy scriptures -- let us debate and reason on the scriptures about whether god almighty is a trinity, or is only one person.. on another thread, bane said that we know for a fact immediately that nearly all religions other than jehovah's witnesses are false because almost all of them believe in the trinity.

and bane claims he can "out-scripturize" anyone with the help of jehovah.

* the son was praying to the father.

peacedog

Hi truthlover,

Jesus said - this decision was not his to give but the Father has prepared their place in the kingdom... taking the decision out of Jesus' hands

The bible clearly defines the Son's role as subservient to the Father. Really, the titles "Father" and "Son" tell us this much... So the question is not whether Jesus is subservient to the Father, nor is the question whether the Son *is* the Father. The question is what is the *nature* of Jesus?

Jesus would have to be the same type as his creator.. after all, our children are the same "type" as we are

Indeed, our children are the same "type" as us. The son of a human being would be human in nature. In the same way, the son of God would be God in nature.

Did you miss my question to you in my previous post?

Did Jesus say *HE* was going to raise his body or did he not?

Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days." The Jews replied, "It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and you are going to raise it in three days?" But the temple he had spoken of was his body. (John 2:19-21)

457

TRINITY Challenge for JW's, Unitarians and Anyone Else

by UnDisfellowshipped in

trinity challenge using only the new world translation of the holy scriptures -- let us debate and reason on the scriptures about whether god almighty is a trinity, or is only one person.. on another thread, bane said that we know for a fact immediately that nearly all religions other than jehovah's witnesses are false because almost all of them believe in the trinity.

and bane claims he can "out-scripturize" anyone with the help of jehovah.

* the son was praying to the father.

peacedog

Podo, I'm obviously missing something regarding your concerns over Ps 110:1. I don't understand where the difficulty lies for you.

Jesus is clearly separate from his Father after the Resurrection. Period. Nothing complicated... two identifiable and separate beings

I agree with you. Did I suggest otherwise?

I am not minded to argue whether Jesus was an angel or not. All we know is that he has been exalted and has been given Immortality alongside his God and Father.

Podo, it seems as though we are approaching the question of the biblical nature of Jesus from different starting points. Perhaps you should try tackling the question of whether or not Jesus is an angel. You say "all we know is.....". No, that's not all we know. If you accept scripture, then we "know" that Jesus is NOT an angel, per Hebrews 1:5 and 1:13. Short of inserting words into the biblical text, there is no avoiding the conclusion that Jesus is NOT an angel.

That being the case, I ask you, what is the *nature* of Jesus? I accept that Jesus is not the same person as his Father. I'm not asking you if Jesus *IS* the Father, I'm not asking you if Jesus *IS* Jehovah. I'm asking you what is Jesus' NATURE.

5God has never said to any of the angels, "You are my Son, because today I have become your Father!" Neither has God said to any of them, "I will be his Father, and he will be my Son!"

13God never said to any of the angels, "Sit at my right side until I make your enemies into a footstool for you!"

457

TRINITY Challenge for JW's, Unitarians and Anyone Else

by UnDisfellowshipped in

trinity challenge using only the new world translation of the holy scriptures -- let us debate and reason on the scriptures about whether god almighty is a trinity, or is only one person.. on another thread, bane said that we know for a fact immediately that nearly all religions other than jehovah's witnesses are false because almost all of them believe in the trinity.

and bane claims he can "out-scripturize" anyone with the help of jehovah.

* the son was praying to the father.

peacedog

djeggnog,

I'll respond to your earlier post first. I missed it my last time around. Sorry about that.

So you found my insertion of the word "other" in order to convey my understanding of the text at Hebrews 1:5 to have been dishonest in some way?

eggnog, you added a word that completely changes the meaning of the verse:

Pre-eggnog verse: God never said to any of the angels...

Post-eggnog verse: God never said to any of the other angels...

The pre-eggnog verse eliminates any and all angels. The post-eggnog verse does not.

Food for thought: If the ORIGINAL bible verse said "God never said to any of the OTHER angels", and I went ahead and removed the word "other", changing the meaning of the verse to fit my theology, would it be dishonest of me?

on what basis are you saying that you found my explanation to "reek"?

I said it reeks of the Watchtower Society, which is to say it is exactly the sort of tactic they would use to explain a problematic verse: inserting the word "other" to change the meaning of the biblical text. (consider Col 1:15-17)

Now if you believe I did something wrong here by posting my "commentary" on the first two chapters of Hebrews based on how I understand these two chapters to be saying, please tell me what you believe I did wrong here. Before I post another message to you in this thread, I'm going to require an answer from you, because you are treating me here as if I'd done something onerous to you.

eggnog, you have done nothing onerous to me. I have no problem with you posting your opinion on these or any other verses. At the same time, realize that I may not agree with your opinions and I may choose to voice that disagreement. In the case of Hebrews chapter 1, I disagree with you adding the word "other" in order to change the meaning of the biblical text so that it fits with your personal theology.

What "hoops" did I jump through? About what exactly are you accusing me of being in denial?

I was quoting debator who said "deny the obvious and bible written [sic]". You deny the obvious statement of Hebrews 1:5 and 1:13:

5God has never said to any of the angels, "You are my Son, because today I have become your Father!" Neither has God said to any of them, "I will be his Father, and he will be my Son!"

13God never said to any of the angels, "Sit at my right side until I make your enemies into a footstool for you!"

You denial is evidenced by your adding the word "other" to change the meaning of the verse to fit your theology.

I recommend re-reading the verses slowly, paying particular attention to the absence of the word "other".

My response to your more recent post:

Moses, for the most part, completes the book of Deuteronomy before his death in 1473 BC, 741 years before Isaiah completes the writing of his book, some 1,505 years before another God came into existence. So Jehovah's declaration through Moses at Deuteronomy 32:39 is true.

Are you seriously suggesting that Jehovah's declaration at Deut 32:39 ("THERE ARE NO GODS TOGETHER WITH ME") is true because Jesus didn't exist at that time?..........

I suggest you re-read John 1:1. When you do so, you will note that the verse begins "In the beginning....". To what would you consider this to be a reference? The beginning of the book of John? The beginning of the week?

But with reference to which one of the angels has he ever said: 'Sit at my right hand, until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet'? Are they not all spirits for public service, sent forth to minister for those who are going to inherit salvation?

Note that Paul says here at Hebrews 1:14 that they, including the angel that 'sits at God's right hand,' are "all [of them] spirits for public service, sent forth to minister for those that are going to inherit salvation."

I hardly know where to start. This is such an obvious misinterpretation of these verses...

What Hebrews 1:13,14 says is that God never said "sit at my right hand....." to *ANY* angel, for (because, as evidenced by) angels are merely servants of those who are going to be saved.

Do you see? Angels are "merely servants of those who are going to be saved". One such as this would not be appointed to sit at the right hand of God.

Consider the CEV rendering, which is quite clear:

God never said to any of the angels, "Sit at my right side until I make your enemies into a footstool for you!" Angels are merely spirits sent to serve people who are going to be saved.

Do you see that God never said "Sit at my right hand....." to "ANY of the angels"? For angels are merely spirits sent to serve, not to sit at the right hand of God.

bane: Stick to video games and pro wrestling.

truthlover:

So did God resurrect himself??

You tell me:

Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days." The Jews replied, "It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and you are going to raise it in three days?" But the temple he had spoken of was his body. (John 2:19-21)

Did Jesus say *HE* was going to raise his body or did he not?

Podo:

I think UnDisfellowshipped as well as others have taken the time to explain this verse for you. "The LORD" is YHWH; "the Lord" is a reference to the incarnate Jesus.

Kenneson:

Does it make any sense that the question: "Did God ever say to any angel, 'Sit at my right side, until I make your enemies your footstool?" means that yes, God did say this to one angel Jesus, is ridiculous. The point is that this was said of Jesus, but never to ANY angel.

So true. While there are certainly difficult passages in the bible, this isn't one of them. God never said this to ANY angel. Period. Therefore, Jesus cannot be an angel. Period.

It seems to me that theology ought to be based on the unambiguous statements of scripture while the ambiguous verses are left open to debate.

457

TRINITY Challenge for JW's, Unitarians and Anyone Else

by UnDisfellowshipped in

trinity challenge using only the new world translation of the holy scriptures -- let us debate and reason on the scriptures about whether god almighty is a trinity, or is only one person.. on another thread, bane said that we know for a fact immediately that nearly all religions other than jehovah's witnesses are false because almost all of them believe in the trinity.

and bane claims he can "out-scripturize" anyone with the help of jehovah.

* the son was praying to the father.

peacedog

Isaac: Thank you.

UnDisfellowshipped:

Just wanted to say great point about the context of Isaiah 44. You are absolutely right. (When dealing with jw "apologists" I try to keep the discussion very narrow and focused. I have found that with every point introduced into a discussion, you present the jw with the opportunity to ignore a previous point.)

Really, Isaiah 44:6 ought to be enough to prove the biblical Deity of Jesus (given John 1:1 and Rev 2:8):

Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: 'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me.

Imagine a religion that claims to believe the bible and yet in the face of this verse they claim there is another god who is also the first and the last!

It boggles the mind......

You also mentioned Deuteronomy 32:39 ("There are NO GODS TOGETHER WITH ME"). Another verse that goes against JW theology. I've yet to have a JW explain to me how Jesus can be "a god" who is "with God" (John 1:1 nwt) when at Deut 32:39 God clearly states "THERE ARE NO GODS TOGETHER WITH ME".

What a crazy, mixed-up religion.

457

TRINITY Challenge for JW's, Unitarians and Anyone Else

by UnDisfellowshipped in

trinity challenge using only the new world translation of the holy scriptures -- let us debate and reason on the scriptures about whether god almighty is a trinity, or is only one person.. on another thread, bane said that we know for a fact immediately that nearly all religions other than jehovah's witnesses are false because almost all of them believe in the trinity.

and bane claims he can "out-scripturize" anyone with the help of jehovah.

* the son was praying to the father.

peacedog

debator,

You say God cannot claim to work alone if he uses others unless they become God

No, I didn't.

Your saying Well yes three people did do creation therefore they are one

Again, no I didn't.

Do you lie often?

You are not saying God created things himself alone You are saying a three person God created things together and that is defeating your own argument.

Debator, even if I were saying this, it doesn't defeat my argument. "God created" or "a three person God created" is still ONE GOD WHO CREATED THE UNIVERSE. According to scripture, this ONE GOD created the universe UNAIDED.

He speaks through prophets but they do not become God? He works and speaks through his son but you then try and create some special case for Jesus to make him Almighty God Jehovah.

*blank stare*

God creating the universe "through Jesus" doesn't necessarily make Jesus God... who said it did? I didn't. You miss the point. What 'makes Jesus God' is the fact that God created the universe ALL ALONE, BY HIMSELF. WHO WAS WITH HIM?

Anyway..... not surprisingly, in typical watchtower "apologist" fashion, you ignored my request for a straightforward yes-or-no answer to each of my two very simple questions.

I extracted your answer to my first question from the body of your post.

Q: Did God create all things (heaven and earth) ALL ALONE, BY HIMSELF?
A: God did not create things alone

My second very simple question is:

Q: Did God ever say to ANY angel, "Sit at my right side until I make your enemies into a footstool for you."?

Please give me your yes-or-no answer to the above question. Thanks.

457

TRINITY Challenge for JW's, Unitarians and Anyone Else

by UnDisfellowshipped in

trinity challenge using only the new world translation of the holy scriptures -- let us debate and reason on the scriptures about whether god almighty is a trinity, or is only one person.. on another thread, bane said that we know for a fact immediately that nearly all religions other than jehovah's witnesses are false because almost all of them believe in the trinity.

and bane claims he can "out-scripturize" anyone with the help of jehovah.

* the son was praying to the father.

peacedog

debator,

God clearly can work through workers aka Angels, people, animals and his son and so can be said to have done it all.

It's like people saying Brunel made "the great western railway" when he clearly would have used workers/hired hands.

Agreed. This is obvious. However, the flaw in your reasoning is just as clearly seen in that while one might legitimately say that "Brunel made the great western railway", one could NOT say that "Brunel made the great western railway ALL ALONE, BY HIMSELF. WHO WAS WITH HIM?"

This is the difference. God did not just claim to have created all things; God was explicit - to the point of repeating himself - that he created all things ALONE, BY HIMSELF. To quote him: "Who was with me?"

I have two simple (yes or no) questions for you that ought to expedite our discussion:

1) Did God create all things (heaven and earth) ALL ALONE, BY HIMSELF?

2) Did God ever say to ANY angel, "Sit at my right side until I make your enemies into a footstool for you."?

Please give me your yes-or-no response to each question. Thanks,

83

If you felt/feel that you had/have good, close "friends" in the org, how did/does it feel to just give them up?

by Crisis of Conscience in

jw
friends

this is my biggest dilema.

although mentally i really feel i could walk away from the org right now, i still have genuine love for the people i have come to know over the years.

i love people!.

peacedog

Does the realization that they weren't/aren't actually good close friends negate the difficulty in losing them? Sure did for me....