Posts by JCanon

58

Obves / JCannon =Are they the Anti-Christ??

by Witness 007 in

JCanon

My recommendation is to see it as more like the know-it-all bravado humor of
Little Richard or early Muhammed Ali, Jackie Mason or Prof.Irwin Corey. If it's
entertaining for you, that's it, but it would be silly to take it purely ser-
iously.

Actually, Glenster, if you don't believe the Bible I don't see how one could take it any other way either. Jehovah intended to make it difficult to believe for the non-believers:

ACTS 13:41 ‘Behold it, YOU scorners, and wonder at it, and vanish away, because I am working a work in YOUR days, a work that YOU will by no means believe even if anyone relates it to YOU in detail.’"

Who can believe I've actually seen Paul and John, still alive from the 1st century? Even though the Bible indictes they would never die?

So. Skepticism is expected.

JCanon

9

Spook Vs. Jcanon on the Arguments From Evil

by Spook in

jcannon has agreed to a discussion on the philosophical arguments from evil.

i will be advancing the proposition that the presence of the current level of suffering in the world constitutes strong evidence that the christian god (hereafter referred to as god) does not exist.

jcannon will be negating the proposition.

JCanon

These are usually those who argue that logic itself is a metaphysical creation of God and is a function of a human mind describing natural laws (both of which they claim to be created by God and therefore not a limiting condition on his actions.)
That is a very valid counteragument. Excellent post! It has occurred to me as well.
Let me chew on that.
Burn

Hi BurnTheShips. How about chewing on this: Everything that happens to us becomes a "memory" right? So why is there a need for a physical universe at all, why not simply memories? I mean, think about it. What is one day some company came up with "virtual memory" (okay, I know that exists) but maybe "virtual EXPERIENCE." That is, you're working really hard, you've got lots of projects lagging behind and you really don't have time for a two-week vacation on Maui. So you go to this service. They put you to sleep for about 6 hours in a plush tech room, and they hypnotize you or do something and create a memory of the Maui experience in some virtual way. So when you're done you have "experienced" several great "memories" of your "trip"? What difference is that than the memory of your actually having been there? THINK ABOUT MY DELIMMA AS WELL: Here I am, the #1 entity in the universe besides God himself! WHY ME? It is impossible for me to accept that I actually am the messiah and this is my experience. It's like I won the lottery... BUT... What if this is what it is about? The ultimate experience in life is becoming like God and being the messiah? Then I thought, HEY, maybe everybody has a dream like this in their own universe and they all become the messiah. You know, like in some other universe YOU end up becoming the ultimate being? Therefore, it makes sense I've become the messiah because, this is my god-given DREAM for supreme happiness! I mean, isn't the greatest happiness ever the opportunity to be Jesus Christ himself? What a LOTTERY TICKET!! And YOU WON!!! But then, maybe not. Maybe in the scheme of things, SOMEBODY had to be Jesus Christ in the flesh, and whomever that ended up being, they'd have this dilemma of wondering: WHY ME. So it just happened to be ME. I got chosen. But I'll tell you, God sort of tricked me into being the messiah. That's how it actually went down. Just like the prodigal son parable. This is someone who had been dead and wanted just to get back in and suffer. The suffering he found in the world was not nearly as bad as the lives of the mere slaves and servants in God's house. So at least he was SMART enough to try and come back and become a servant. So basically, when this person comes back with hat in hand they're ready to do ANYTHING, just let me back IN! God sort of grins and says, "Really? You will do ANYTHING for me?" The prodigal son answers: "Oh, ABSOLUTELY! ANYTHING. I don't deserve this second chance so you name it and I'll do it!!" So God says: "Okay, sign here!" It was the: MESSIAH AGREEMENT. Yippes! It was too late to back down... So here I am the greatest entity in the universe besides Jehovah himself, and look at how much work it is? I'm not complaining because it's work I like doing. But at the time I was like ready to go up to heaven. I was happy. But being the messiah means being down on the earth for 1000 years, plus 40 years after Satan is released and then another 80 years perhaps for Judgment Day. THEN I get to return to heaven. Of course, the spirit part of me had just been in heaven for the past 1900 years, but I've never been to heaven (except in my vision). So there you have it. I'm here to wash the feet of my disciples, even though I'm the greatest. But that's okay, because that's what I'm good at, and I love mankind, as is quite clear. JC

9

Spook Vs. Jcanon on the Arguments From Evil

by Spook in

jcannon has agreed to a discussion on the philosophical arguments from evil.

i will be advancing the proposition that the presence of the current level of suffering in the world constitutes strong evidence that the christian god (hereafter referred to as god) does not exist.

jcannon will be negating the proposition.

JCanon

Hi Spook:

Jcannon has conceded the debate though he may not know it yet. He has disproven God for himself:

Not at all. Only YOUR restrictive definition of God, maybe. But not mine.

Arguments from ends vs. means do not apply to God. Being omnipotent, if God existed he can achieve any end result with no respect to means. It seems clear to me that from Jcannon's words that God has chosen suffering.

I don't agree. God has not chosen "suffering" only "TEMPORARY suffering." And I explained the alternative to "temporary suffering" is no life at all.

NOW you become GOD. There is a child whom you love. He is trapped with his foot caught under a railroad track. The train is coming. There is no time to try and hoist up the track. Your only choice to save the child is to quickly chop off his foot. If you do not, he will be killed. So, do you decide the pain of chopping off the foot is better than the child being killed. You are assured he will be killed so quickly by the train he will not suffer any pain whatsoever. What is the "benevolent" thing to do?

5. Therefore by internal incompatability, God does not exist.

OR, God is immoral as you say, which is really what you're saying, is it not? Either God doesn't exist, or if he does, he is immoral for allowing temporary suffering? So it is not: Does God exist or not, but is he hypocritical or "immoral" for allowing suffering? So you've lost your argument. We must now debate to what extent god is "immoral" or not, and it only is sufficient that I have the opinion that he is not. I will not counter your personal view that he is. Even so, we have established the potential existence of God, seen as immoral by some and not immoral by others.

Jcannon failed in his definition of a coherant idea of free will. In response to answer my question "What is Free Will free from?" He answers that it is free from "non-choice." I submit to the fairness of other readers that this is a double negative. Being free from/of a negative is nonsensical white-noise.

No it is not. It is the direct, mirror opposite. The lack of free will is the direct opposite of free will. It ended up a double-negative because of the way you phrased your question: What is free will free from? It is free from the opposite.: Non-choice. So the answer is valid. You may consider it "nonsensical white-noise" but you're not in a position to do that. Your only position is that you don't understand my response. If you know math or algebra then the concept of a double negative becomes clear to you: -1(-1*5)=+5

I am also concerned with Jcannon's retreat to solipsistic subjectivism as seen later in his replies. Jcannon ironically takes a solipsistic stand affirming the value of the subjective and then sets up a false dilemma whereby I am challenged to disprove that inner state. This is nonsense.

Lame excuse to disprove, accepted.

In so far as the external data are concerned, the challenge hereby presented could easily be addressed by the existance of any argument for the equifinality of similar photos. The argument from Indistinguishables relates to the fact that there are thousands of such claims by UFO junkies, big foot fans, radical Islam and Mother Theresa to name just a few.

INVALID. YOU have to demonstrate this. That is, show a PHOTO of cloud imagery that matches a similar published image 10 years earlier. If this is so common then you should have no problem demonstrating this. But you also have to show CONTEXT to something like the Bible which was written 1900 years earlier. Here is the focus of my argument.

1. The Bible says there would be a sign.

2. It says the sign would appear in the heaevn.

3. The Bible dates that sign occurring "Immediately after the tribulation of those days.." meaning after the Holocaust.

4. The sign has the effect of causing those who see it to "beat themselves in lamentation", which is what one does over the death of someone.

So the SIGN has to meet the above context.

5. The image that showed up in the photo was taken at a specific time related to the photographer of the previous appearance of the sign, that is, December 26 in the late afternoon. The sign was "suspected" because this was the 7th anniversary of the second coming, inclusive. Seven is a focal number pattern in the Bible. The photos were taken and the resultant imagery appeared.

6. The imagery is specific to the context of the second coming as the black, prodigal son. The divinely inspired artistic "concept" of this is a close-up of the face of a black infant with his eyes closed. This represents the dead black prodigal son.

Notice how this reflects the context of the Biblical reference that those seeing the sign would beat themselves in lamentation. BUT...

7. This sleeping black child's face in the hand of Jesus beside a flying bird figure is no COINCIDENCE in the "Revelation" Book. Or do you think it is? If it is not, then it only means others not only have seen the same imagery, but related it to the "sign of the son of man" that is, connected it directly with Christ, which is the direct connection in the Revelation Book since the sleeping black face appears in the very hand of the messiah next to a bird.

So THAT is what you have to come up with: A 1900-year old prophecy about a sign in the heavens, which turns out to be cloud imagery, that is specific enough to have been printed in a book prior to a photo of that sign. Then you have to show in the Bible where UFO's are supposed to appear at a specific time in fulfillment of Bible prophecy. Please list those scriptures. Thanks.

Furhtermore, from confirmation theory, most of these have been soundly disproven as supernatural.

Mine hasn't. You can't summarily dismiss something I'm claiming is new and UNIQUE by deciding to categorize it generally into something entirely unrelated. Sorry. Nice try but no-go.

So, no Jcannon, I do not have the burden of proof in this issue of internal subjective experience.

Yes you do if you want to continue to say that the God experience is 100% internal. Your backing out of this means YOU CAN'T and therefore you have no basis to claim my God is not real.

The burden is squarely on Jcannon's shoulders to affirm the value of his experience. All we've seen so far is a description of the experience in fairly loose terms.

I've already given my PROOF. I showed you two things:

1. A photo of the sign.

2. The reference to that sign in the Revelation Book.

You have not commented SPECIFICALLY on why that is irrelevant, or common, or nonspecific, or anything.

So, PLEASE: What do you think?

1. Do you think the image in the Revelation Book is similar to the cloud imagery?

2. Do you think they are possibly related?

Just curious?

So, Jcannon is again requested to return to the original questions and consider the conclusioins above.

Progress has been made. Here is my summary:

1. The TRUE issue is not whether or not there is a god, but whether or not if there is a God he is not pure Good but, in fact, bad or "immoral", specifically because he allows temporary suffering in the world of mankind.

2. That some persons who believe in God, like myself, do not have a completely internal experience with God, some of it is external. This was not addressed but waved off as we do UFO sightings. Not good enough. You have a specific, not general, presentation of direct evidence which means you can directly investigate and dismiss this as a fabrication or nonspecific or whatever. But you don't, not that you can. So your internal God argument is disproven.

Thanks! I enjoyed the discussion!

As a final word on the true issue: Is God a cruel god for allowing suffering? My position is that he allows it as a necessary, temporary thing in order to serve the higher purpose of saving the life. We often cut off a limb to save a life. We are willing to suffer and lose parts of our beloved bodies if it will save the whole. So God thinks, given the choice of no life at all or eternal life with a period of temporary suffering, that the latter is more benevolent.

And I agree. Wholeheartedly!

Thanks for the discussion!!!

JC

58

Obves / JCannon =Are they the Anti-Christ??

by Witness 007 in

JCanon

JC.."DAY" and "HOUR" are not to be taken literally..Jesus always spoke in parables..As we know a DAY to GOD is a 1,000 YEARS, so we can interpret DAY being YEAR as well.

True. But the Bible also is cryptic. The general intent would be that "day and hour" are generalizations for greater periods or not knowing precisely when Christ would arrive. Remember, after the "great tribluation"..."Immediately after the tribulation..." the sun, moon and stars would be darkened. If this is spiritual then it means the general knowledge about the Christ and chronology would be suppressed. Likewise, this parallels when the ten virgins all nod and their lamps grow dim. Meaning they cannot see clearly the precise details of the chronology of the second coming. Even so, it is clear that chronology prophecies are specific to a year, three, in fact: 7-times, 1335 days, and mid 70th week end of gift and sacrifice. SO THE POINT IS: Does the Bible technically contradict itself by providing us the YEAR of the second coming when it says, "nobody knows the DAY nor HOUR"? No. But I would say it is a deliberate decoy to serve the purpose. Further the statement that nobody knows not even the son of man could be a reference to the prodigal son messiah who up until that moment does not know. In fact, Jesus appeared himself to me once. It was just like those have described, this bright light and radiant white long garment. I didn't see his face. I was trying to convince a brother whom I had studied with that his feelings that he might be of the anointed were indeed real. We were in the private library at the Kingdom Hall. Then suddenly Christ appeared. I had no clue I'd end up becoming the messiah. I knew I was important as a "prophet", which is what other JIOR members called me. They knew I'd become the messiah eventually. But after so many things were seemingly centered around me, when I asked where was Jesus, then his spiirt "transmigrated" down into my body. After that, I had an interview with Jehovah, most of which has been removed from my memory except it occurred on two separate occasions in two different places (I think) in Heaven. So technically, even NOW, since I was in that dumpster for nearly two days, I don't know EXACTLY the day or hour I became the messiah, and neither does anybody else. I must have gone to sleep was was having visions of everything over those two days (Deceber 25-26). It witnessed the battle in heaven, which was a court case. I saw Satan who was standing right next to Jehovah debating about how much pain I could take. Jehovah does like to gamble, or I should say wager with Satan. Anyway, he called the bet off and Satan left. So again, I truly understand and appreciate your point on the "day or hour", but you can hardly ignore the "7 times" prophecy. Further, the precise year of the first coming was predicted in the Bible. Why not the year of the second coming in a parallel way? JC

58

Obves / JCannon =Are they the Anti-Christ??

by Witness 007 in

JCanon

JC- forgive my ignorance, but what is the JIOR??????

No problem. It is a loose reference to the eagle-woman who has a secret place in the wilderness. The secret society part of Christ's folowers. It stands for "Jehovah is Our Righteousness". The significance of that is, since they have to remain secretive and anonymous and hidden from Satan's spies, it is not always advantageous if they are seen as the most dutiful, goody-goody-two-shoes in town, whether they have left the WTS or not. So as part of their cover, they pretend to be other religions, celebrate Christmas, all that stuff. So Jehovah has to overlook it, and thus Jehovah becomes their "righteousness." Not that they are hardened criminals, but if the Satan presumes they wouldn't be drug addicts, that might be a good cover... see what I'm saying? So the JIOR is, in part, sort of a renegade group that can't be seen, who fall short of the high standards and depend upon Jehovah's forgiveness and assignment of righteous. So they are called "Jehovah Is Our Righteousness" A compatible example is an undercover drug agent. He pretends he's a drug addict and maybe even sets up some drug deals at first, sells drugs, etc. All to get the confidence up that's he's not a cop. The government, overlooks the fact that he's breaking the law. Same principle. JC

58

Obves / JCannon =Are they the Anti-Christ??

by Witness 007 in

JCanon

JC- you're an odd duck, buddy! I don't think either you or OBVES is the anti-christ. I'm pretty sure you two aren't evil, but you are both weird. The numbers numb my mind after a while and I confess I can't understand all that business. But then again, I know that according to the Bible NO ONE knows "THE DATE". So it's all just a waste of time IMO.

Nobody knows the DAY OR HOUR. "Day" and "Hour" is not month and year..... We know the month and year..... JC

58

Obves / JCannon =Are they the Anti-Christ??

by Witness 007 in

JCanon

Oh no, et tu Brute/BurnThe Ships...

I agree with snowbird , JCanon is da man - up there in intelligence with Leolaia and Narkissos in his own strange way

I have to agree, I really enjoy his presence here. I just hate that this might be taken as "encouragement".
My maternal-side grandfather once told me what the secret to success is: "Pick a convincing line of bullsh1t and stick with it".
Maybe it is all bullsh1t in the end.
Burn

You crossed the line. You said "maybe"... Want a closer look at the shell? http://www.singsnap.com/snap/watchandlisten/play/aef7320f JCanon

58

Obves / JCannon =Are they the Anti-Christ??

by Witness 007 in

JCanon

I DON'T BELIEVE THIS!!!

I agree with snowbird, JCanon is da man - up there in intelligence with Leolaia and Narkissos in his own strange way. Mind you to be honest the only posts of his I have read all the way through were the ones were he explained his very colourful background. All that prophesying and exposition is a bit heavy going. I fear for that reason he may be one of the most underead prolific posters on the forum.

All of a sudden, I'm making sense?!!! Then why not admit to the realities of what I'm saying?

Of course, it's logical! You've got 511 BCE references in the VAT4956!!! That PROVES the original chronology is the same as the Bible's? So why aren't people saying, "Oh, yeah!!! We need to correct/revise the secular timeline?"

Wow... suddenly I'm as impressive as Leolaia (doubtful, she's BAD!)?

Is this too little, too late?

JCanon

58

Obves / JCannon =Are they the Anti-Christ??

by Witness 007 in

JCanon

Yeah "Burn" too many bible calculations that's what made Fred Franz go senile in the end.....but saying your the Messiah or Lazarus is a common form of mental illness. I've met people like this. He doesn't realize that they average person can't understand what he's saying.

DARLING BRINJEN!! Ah yes!! My first non-believing fan!!! Thaaanks so much!!! Per the Bible, apparently, people will find the messiah friendly, though they don't accept his messiahship. Which is still sweet. JUST FOR YOU: http://www.singsnap.com/snap/watchandlisten/play/aef7320f A closer look at the imperfect man/woman....

58

Obves / JCannon =Are they the Anti-Christ??

by Witness 007 in

JCanon

Yeah "Burn" too many bible calculations that's what made Fred Franz go senile in the end.....but saying your the Messiah or Lazarus is a common form of mental illness. I've met people like this. He doesn't realize that they average person can't understand what he's saying.

The AVERAGE PERSON cannot understand what I'm saying, because they are very busy and are speedreading experts and they miss too much reading my posts!!! You are just saying that YOU don't understand. Well let me help you. Okay: The DELIAN PROBLEM. Claims that Plato was consulted to solve how to double the size of a cube, a mathematical challenge in the Classical Period. He can't solve it. He turns it ove to some mathematicians, one of whom solves it! Archytas!! Problem is, this request was made at the beginning of the Peloponnesia War in 431 BCE. Plato wasn't born until 428 BCE. AT THIS POINT, THE AVERAGE PERSON should realize "something is wrong." HWHAP!!! (Houston, we have a problem....) But unfortunately, the AVERAGE PERSON, only pays attention to what others are paying attention to. They se nobody else noticing anything is wrong so they move on..... What I present is NOT hard to understand. It's just not understood well when one closes their eyes. JCanon