Posts by JCanon

12

thoughts...

by dustin_adam in

please note!

this is more of a philosophical question, and i am posting it merely to get feedback on what i like to term doctrinal circular logic (ie.

the bible is true because the bible says it true) i have tried to remove my own conclusions that i made from this, so if they shine through somewhere, i apologize.

But probably the "perfect" question should not be considered outside of the context of the angels. They were also considered "perfect" yet many of them sinned (one third at the time of Satan's being kicked out of Heaven).

So "perfect" probably, and especially in the JW setting is generally applied in contrast to being 'imperfect' with respect to the condition of morphology of the human state after Adam sinned. In that regard god did not create a defective organism in the beginning, but morphology and anomony result from sin in the human species. This does not seem to be the case with angels though, who are spiritual.

As to whether or not God knew ahead of time what would or might happen, I would think so. If so it would seem the plan was to get rid of Satan legally. On a higher spiritual plane, the whole concept of man and "sin" and the physical universe is to enable laws and penalties. That is, up in heaven there really were not any rules of conduct that would constitute a real sin. I suppose you could be very disreprectful, but could you steal from another angel, kill him? Commite adultery with his wife? etc.

Yet, if Satan had already become a nuisance and showed a tendency toward disrespect and showed this and God wanted to clean up the heavens, one way to do it was to create a PHYSICAL UNIVERSE, where "acts" could create sin and laws applied so that breaking those laws would cause penalties. If you created "free moral agents" to make choices, then probably God knew that a certain percentage would fail or rebel, as they did. Only in the spiritual world before the physical universe, there was just "philosophy" and "hypothetical". The REAL world made REAL acts possible. MURDER, etc.

So in that sense the test given to Adam and Eve to be faithful was a test for the angels as well, particularly Satan. When God imposed laws upon man int he physical universe, it affected the angels in heaven as well. It was now possible for them to sin--or show their loyalty and obedience to God. Thus the physical univese could be seen as a HIGHER STANDARD for both Heaven and Earth. Those wishing to live forever would now be hinged upon respect for the creator of their life and obedience. And that obedience was constructed in such a way that it is selfless. That is, LOVE of God without regard to personal life was the way to gain that life. You have to let go of your life, for love of God in order to get life back. If you don't have that much love then you will lose your life, that is, your temporary life.

Now this might seem a bit complex and convoluted but not when you understand a subtle message God incorporated in animals and plants and that is a wonderment and glory for a short time. A flower is planted, it grows up and blooms, spawns seeds and withers and dies. Was it worth it? Sure! It was beautiful. Animals the same way. They have a life for a short while then die off the scene. That is LIFE and all that God would give each of us...the life of a plant or an animal, even if it's thousands of years. The prize of EVERLASTING LIFE, though, are extended to those who CHOOSE GOD out of love.

When you think about it in these big-picture terms, therefore, and look at the final result, what happened was that God is able to use the physical universe to clean out the heavens and improve things in the universe to a higher standard. Adam and Eve were not the only persons tested by God's laws about man. The angels were as well. The process is painful though and "expensive" but in the end, certainly worth it.

Those of us who are servants of the Most High, are not particularly concerned with these philosophical issues, other than to be in awe of them, since at some point we consider this as "God's business"--he can do what he wishes in his own garden, right? Thus the delight is in just enjoying the presence of the Creator and what he has provided for us who love him to enjoy the universe as he has planned it. Understanding all the while, that some, like Satan and a third of the angels, will want more than what God has outlined for them and in their disappointment, choose a short life of "sin" rather than a long life of pleasure in the company of a God they don't particularly care for.

So yes, God knew the POTENTIAL of what was going to happen when he created the physical universe. It's PERFECT in every way, including a PERFECT TEST and CLEAN-UP MECHANISM.

In the end, Satan is the ultimate FOOL for falling into God's trap.

Too bad.

Where's there a will....there's a way.

God's way is always the best way.

JC

15

Who is running the Watchtower Society?

by richard in

.

since the watchtower society has been reorganized and split up in all these (sub)corporations, i wonder where the real power is located.

my guess would be the wtbts of pennsylvania, inc. other ideas?

JCanon

The WT is like a train going over the mountains. It reached its peak in the 80s and now it is going down hill. But the engineer is too old to care so he has drifted off to sleep. Now it is being carried along on momentum from the hay-day of the 80s.

Interesting perspective. This is certainly true spritiually; they are now in darkness and a desolate waste. But according to Revelation both Christendom (666 Beast) and the Lamb-Dragon Beast, later called the "false prophet"-you guessed it--the WTS will both be thrown into the lake of fire "while still alive", so their demise will come but it will be sudden. My money is on international outlaw of religion since both go together. A takeover suggests it continues in a modified form. Too bad for organized religion, but they have it coming, right?

JC

22

Greatest tribulation upon Judaism?

by peacefulpete in

for jws and other fundementalists the destruction of jerusalem in 70ce is a unquestionably the fullfillment of the words in mark 13.19. however to see the city's leveling as the " tribulation such as has not occurred since the world's beginning until now" as referring to death numbers we must surmise the death toll to have been horrific indeed!

josephus is of course oft quoted for the numbers.

according to him 97,000 were taken prisoner while 1,100,000 were killed.

JCanon

Why don't you write "IMMEDIATELY after"?

Why not? Because the point was the second coming which was "after" the Holocaust. What came immediately after was first the interval of darkness of the sun and moon and the stars. This is considered to be a spiritual darkness among the anointed with respect to the details of the second coming. This is the "nodding" of the ten virgins just before the second coming, showing that they would be sleepy as far as their full understanding of the date and nature of the second coming.

Daniel, of course, times this interval of darkness occurring "immediately" after the great tribulation as being at least 45 years after the "end" of the 1290 days which would be near the end of the "great tribulation". The great tribulation was to be the final last blow against the Jews for leaving God's covenant, after which his anger would be "rested" and he would then forgive the remnant of the Jews and restore them as his people and reestablish them in their homeland as promised, which occurred in 1947.

So, if you wish, as far as detail goes, what happens "immediately after" is this darkening. The second coming is 45 plus years away at this point, so thus no need to emphasize "immediately" in regard to the second coming, only "after". I wasn't trying to avoid the "immediate" reference.

Some have focussed on this since they'd presume this was a second coming reference and thus would suggest that the second coming came immediately after the HOLOCAUST, but that is not specific to the text, just in case you were going in that direction and entertained that argument before.

22

Greatest tribulation upon Judaism?

by peacefulpete in

for jws and other fundementalists the destruction of jerusalem in 70ce is a unquestionably the fullfillment of the words in mark 13.19. however to see the city's leveling as the " tribulation such as has not occurred since the world's beginning until now" as referring to death numbers we must surmise the death toll to have been horrific indeed!

josephus is of course oft quoted for the numbers.

according to him 97,000 were taken prisoner while 1,100,000 were killed.

JCanon

The specific "great tribulation" prophesied by Daniel that would occur just before the second coming and before the Jews would be restored to Palestine, happening during the "last generation" (1914-1994) was THE HOLOCAUST.

Matt 24:36 says "Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days......darkness of the sun and moon.....then the sign of the son of man would arrive." Note "those in Judea must flee to the mountains" is a reference to the displaced central location of relocated Jews, that being in Eastern Europe primarily and in Warsaw, Poland in particular, the largest concentration of Jews by far.

JC

15

un resolution to ban religion

by free will in

when i read this at first and then looked at the web site.

i thought oh no, what have i done.

but now, i'm thinking it was just a matter of time before someone attempted the unachievable.

JCanon

This is "very interesting" as far as a critical Biblical prophecy point of view.

That's because both Christendom (the "666/trinity" beast out of the sea -- sae=Christendom) and the apostate witness organization (the Lamb-Dragon beast, out of the earth; earth=JWs) are thrown into the lake of fire "while still alive".

"While still alive" means they don't die out gradually due to lack of attendance or contributions. "While still alive" means they are still active and going. So to thrown into the lake of fire in this manner suggests a SUDDEN end. In modern translation what would that mean? Certainly if a ban on religious expression were outlawed then that would fit this prophecy. But is that unreasonable in our day and time?

I think not. That's because we're only talking about the FREE WORLD's issue with freedom of religion. China, Russa and everywhere else under totalitarian regimes have long suppressed religious freedom, often in conflict with political issues. So for them it's not a big deal. For the US and Europe to give up their freedom of expression would have to occur under a CRISIS and with so much push of "terrorism" linked with religious fervor now it's logical that given a critical crisis of some sort that focussed on religious beliefs or the use of religion to advance terrorist or political movement that a ban would occur of ALL RELIGION and religious expression. It's has been traditional in the European world that when the economy becomes an issue then freedoms and everything else go right out the window. Europeans can't deal with starving children like occurs in the rest of the world. When that happens, drastric measures come into play. The HOLOCAUST is a perfect example. The Germans, inteliigent, Christian culture, when oppressed economically became Nazis and found it quite easy to exterminate the Jews and others who seemed to interfere with their future "liebestraum" (living space), even if it meant actually building facilities to more efficiently exterminate the "unfit". In contrast, European Americans living in The South found it quite easy to ignore the humanity of blacks for 400 years; but again, because there was a conflict with what they needed to do economically and the rights of others.

Since the fall of Babylon the Great, which is primarily an economic crisis is so closely linked to this final end of things, it wouldn't be surprising, perhaps connected with the need to eliminate religious "terrorism" that the economic stability of the nation would be at stake if all public forms of religious expresion were banned. This is ALL part of the greater plan for a WORLD GOVERNMENT.

And thus isn't it interesting that they would finally say: "Peace and SECURITY", meaning as in financial stability. So this would be interesting to watch.

SECRET SOCIEITIES NOT AFFECTED: Of course, on the other side of this coin, organizations, religious or otherwise, who saw well into the future (or from past experience) that certain freedoms could easily be taken away, especially if they were abused or not used, created their own "secret societies" that don't operate openly or officially and thus would not be affected. Thus the Tupperware party becomes a cover for some idealological exchange on a subliminal level. Classes in real estate and accounting deal out subliminal philosophy. So the games do go on. But the official, public religions will be over.

Actually, that's all kinda good. If religion is banned early on and all the churches are torn down then that saves those who will survive Armageddon into the millennium from having to do that. Of course, larger structures can always be stripped of their religious reference and then used for something else.

When the millennium begins, of course, places of worship will abound, but there will be only ONE RELIGION. And since you had to "volunteer" in order to survive Armageddon anyway, make that choice, it will be a "free choice" religion as well. So you have the best of both worlds: Free Choice and State Religion combined into one. IS THAT THE IDEAL? I think so.

J.C.

19

Peace & Security

by Tashawaa in

over on beliefnet, a dub posted this:.

http://www.formulism.org/news.html.

its a resolution presented to the un to ban religion.

JCanon

Like any illusion, once the mind has been prompted to "see" something it is hard to dismiss it. These passges have been used by fundementalists and adventists for decades to create a similar hyper-readiness and create an archenemy (UN) to focus upon.

Interesting theory, IF the Bible only gave signs and prophecies related to events to the end of the world. But wisely and ingeniously, it combines prophecy with CHRONOLOGY. The chronology eliminates wild speculations along the timeline for various fulfillments which are inevitable since subjective observation of many events will likely fit some descriptions in scripture. Therefore, chronology is provided to limit loose application beyond a certain specific timeframe.

In that regard the events must be matched to the Biblical chronology timeline and in this case, the prophecy of Daniel which is the context for the "last days" is assigned to a period by the "7 times prophecy" among others to a period of 2520 years from the fall of Jerusalem to the second coming. Thus the disciples in Jesus' day were NOT expecting the end any time. This is the error of many casual Bible readers who don't pay attention to ALL the details.

In support of the "immediacy" of the return not being expected during that generation of Jesus is the fact that Paul, John and others were expected "not to die" until the Lord arrived but others were. Case in point Jesus told Peter who he would die in his old age which prompted Peter to ask Jesus "what about John?" Jesus told him if it was his choice that John not die (along with other chosen not to die until he came--that's right live through the ages of 1900 years until he returned to protect the 12 tribes of Israel and likely keep the Bible and other events on track and monitored) he told him it was none of his concern. Paul puts himself in this "SURVIVE UNTIL THE LORD COMES" group as well at 1 Thessalonians 4:15. Not to introduce a doctrine hard for most to believe, but just to make the point that if John and Paul were expecting to outlive many others who would have to be resurrected they were not in mind that the Lord was coming for his return anytime too soon, even if they spoke figuratively that it was to be "soon" or "coming quickly."

Another reference as far as the Jews were concerned that established that they knew this would not come soon was Luke's reference to the "appointed times of the nations" who would trample Jerusalem for an appointed time before they returned. Jesus' prophetic reference to the restoration of the Jews to Palestine, however, represented by the budding of the fig tree was staged BEFORE the second coming. This relates to the "END" of the gentile times connected to the end of 1290 days followed by 45 days to await for the Messiah: Daniel 12 "Happy is he who keeps in expectation of the 1335 days!" This is considered a reference to the second coming and thus occurs AFTER the Jews return to Palestine. That didn't happen until 1947. But Jerusalem wasn't even destroyed until c. 70-73 CE, showing the Jews going into exile and the "appointed times of the nations" continuing from that point.

Bottom line, considering the chronology which specifically dates the year of the return 2520 years from the fall of Jerusalem (whether you date that in 607, 587 or 529BCE), all other prophecies, including that of Babylong the Great would have to occur post 1914 generation.

Thus the argument that this was created to make up for disappointed fulfllments is not academically correct and thus erroneous and therefore ignored by those who are more informed Biblically.

You have to get what the Bible actually says CORRECT first, and then criticize if you wish. Basing an argument upon false interpretation of the Bible means nothing, obviously.

Thanks for the commentary.

JC

2

BOrg says Jews Rejected

by Yerusalyim in

i was reading the "worship" book this morning on the toliet (how appropriate), on page 185 the society says that the jews no longer hold a special place with jehovah because of their rejection of christ.

how do they reconcile that with what the bible says in romans ch 11 1i ask then: did god reject his people?

by no means!

JCanon

I was reading the "Worship" book this morning on the toliet (how appropriate), on page 185 the society says that the Jews no longer hold a special place with Jehovah because of their rejection of Christ. How do they reconcile that with what the bible says in Romans CH 11

You are correct, but with qualifications..

1) God did abandon the Jews for a while, until they underwent their "great tribulation" during our day which was the Holocaust, after which, God would restore them to their land and "end" the gentile times which occurred in 1947. Note that Matthew 24:27 dates the second coming AFTER the tribulation: "Immediately after the tribulation of those days......darkness......then the sign of the son of man will appear."

BUT, note Daniel 9 that says: "The covenenant will remain in place for the many (the natural Jews, the "lesser number" are spiritual Israel) for ONE WEEK" Meaning it would end after that week. That week ends in 1996. The week is the entire week of their covenant beginning when Moses was commissioned at age 30 in 1435BCE to 1996. It's seven days of 70 weeks, 490 years each, The Exodus was the first jubilee, 49 years after the beginning of this Covenant Week, in 1386BCE. This "week" is anchored by the 3rd 70 week of the first coming ending in 36CE. 4 x 490 is 1960, plus 36 is 1996. Thus for BOTH spiritual Israel (JWs) and the natural Jews (both specifically targets of the Nazis during WWII by the way), their covenants as "special people" ends in 1996

So yes, God did reinstate the nation of Israel as his "chosen people", parciularly after 1947, but one aspect of the Law Covenant with the Jews ends in 1996. This relfects fulfillment of a nation of kings and priests, the 144,000 being able to be put into place after 1996, after the end of the last generation ending in 1994 and thus after the second coming.

JC

133

Who has despised the day of small things?

by Know_You in

as the apostates increasingly gather courage, poking their vile heads out of their filthy spider-holes, slavering like the mad creatures that they are, as they shake their puny fists at the lord of all creation, jehovah's people may may become downhearted, even despondent.

many, we hear, are slowing down or even becoming inactive.

others have been so bold as to have risen up to question the slave as it faithfully dispenses food in due season.

JCanon

As the apostates increasingly gather courage, poking their vile heads out of their filthy spider-holes, slavering like the mad creatures that they are, as they shake their puny fists at the Lord of All Creation, Jehovah's people may may become downhearted, even despondent. Many, we hear, are slowing down or even becoming inactive. Others have been so bold as to have risen up to question the Slave as it faithfully dispenses food in due season.

You Know, when are you going to actually follow ALL the scriptures for a change?

The Bible long prophesied that the leadership of his own temple organization would become apostate and that means the GB. These are the scriptures that pertain specifically to "God's organization".

1. The "wheat and weeds"--pertains to this specific organization, JWs. It starts out with fine seed but then before the blades even come up, before that organization thus starts to make a significant public appearance, Satan's weeds are sown in. But they are sown in so well that to separate the weeds from the wheat in the beginning might have cost some of the wheat and so it was decided in this organization to "LET THEM GROW UP TOGETHER". Thus from the beginning God's organization would be infiltrated with weeds, with the GB eventually becoming apostate and rejected.

2. Note that it is specifically then with this organization that when Christ comes he separates the "wheat from the weeds" and the "sheep from the goats"!!! That is, when he comes he takes HIS SHEEP out of the organization since he has "other sheep" not of this fold.

3. Further, you must realize when the Bible uses the "earth" in symbolism it pertains to Jehovah's organization as opposed to using the "sea" which is a reference to Christendom. Thus the 666-Trinity-believing beast of Revelation proceeds out of the SEA where as the Lamb Beast that speaks as a dragon, also called a "false prophet" comes out of the EARTH meaning it is the leadership of God's own spiritual organization.

4. Once you realize this, you realize that 2 Thess. 2:4 is speaking specifically about the apostasy of the GB: "He is set in opposition and lifts himself up over everyone who is called "god" or an object of reverence [i.e. the other anointed ones who become nothing in this organization compared to the GB whom they must be "loyal" to], so that he sits down in the temple of The God [the temple of The God is God's own organization, JWs], publicly showing himself to be a god."

You can't be a god in God's house unless you're in charge of it. Thus this "man of lawlessness" is the apostasy within god's own house, the house that is "wheat and weeds" with a group of the anointed lording over the rest, making himself a god. The "Faithful Slave" God.

AS A RESULT...what God has done is thrown the GB into spiritual darkness. They are "disfellowshipped" at this point which is WHY they have no truth!!! They are not giving any food at any proper time. They are out of it.

CLEAR EXAMPLES OF DARKNESS:

1) The BIBLE itself says the 70 years OBVIOUSLY begins at the time of the last deportation!!!! Gedaliah wasn't even killed until the following year after the fall of Jerusalem. Josephus confirms this in his history. Jeremiah 44:14, 28 clearly states that those who did leave for Egypt would return, "few in number" who had escaped from the sword. So there would be people in Jerusalem or Judea right up until the last deportation in the 23rd year. Then the 70 years begins!! WTS teaches the land became desolated the same year as Jerusalem fell. This is just FALSE TEACHING. But to change this means adjusting 1914. And they are not ready to do that, are they? No because they are a "false prophet".

2) The Bible shows that Jesus sent his disciples out the SAME DAY the lambs are sacrifice. Josephus' history shows the Jews in that day sacrificed the lambs beginning at 3 pm the same time Jesus died. This is truly the hour of "between the two evenings" since one evening starts at Noon and the next at sundown and this is half way "between". Even so, at sundown this same day, Nisan 14, began the sabbath day of the first day of unfermented cakes which if you read Exodus you'd know begins ON NISAN 14TH "IN THE EVENING". That means Nisan 14th was already begun and now near ending (the official date didn't end until Midnight, even for the Jews). Bottom line another FALSE TEACHING that Jesus could have died on Nisan 14th, which wouldn't allow for "three nights" in the grave. Instead, Jesus has to die the following weekend when two sabbath days in a row (Nisan 21st and 22nd-Saturday) allow for the "three days and three nights" to be fulfilled.

AND YOU WANT US TO FOLLOW THIS FALSE PROPHET, YOU KNOW? NO WAY!

3) Finally, even anti-Biblical chronologists and archaeologists are embarassed by the recent discovery in the VAT4956 of two dates for year 37 of Nebuchadnezzar, the suppressed (and thus the original date) being 511BCE! When you date year 37 to 511BCE as presumed the original chronology before revisions by the Persians which this text confirms, then the 23rd year, the year of the last deportation falls in 525BCE, exactly 70 years from 455BCE for the 1st of Cyrus. I don't need to explain why that works out perfectly for the Bible!!! That means 1914 isn't even close to being the correct date for the second coming.

SO DREAM ON YOU KNOW. The GB was "disfellowshipped" from Jehovah's Heavenly organization in November of 1992 and they were told they were the "false prophet" and the "evil slave" that is mentioned in the Bible and they are. The proof now is their clearly false teachings.

And if you go along with them, you are just a false teacher yourself.

They have NOTHING now. No spiritual food. They are a wateland, and Christ is removing his own "true sheep" from the organization leaving it to be thrown into the lake of fire "while still alive" along with Christendom (the 666 Beast). That means the organization will still seem to be going along, alive and active when it is totally destroyed.

JC

19

Peace & Security

by Tashawaa in

over on beliefnet, a dub posted this:.

http://www.formulism.org/news.html.

its a resolution presented to the un to ban religion.

JCanon

Interesting...

Biblically speaking, according to the Bible, indeed, the UN will take over world government in a big with with the US, Russia and Japan giving up sovereignty along with all other nations. But the Biblical reference to be noted is that the WTS ("the false prophet" and Lamb-Dragon Beast) along with the rest of Christendom are destroyed with a quick pitch "while still alive". Thus they will be active right up to the last moment it would seem and destroyed quickly. Yet it doesn't appear this is an action consistent with when the nations are destroyed.

Thus how is it that religion could be destroyed so quickly? The UN banning all religion certainly is consistent with a quick pitch into the ocean like a stone. The other idea is the religion dying a slow death of it's own accord which is not consistent with scripture.

Certainly drastic circumstances will prevail at the time the UN takes over world government and freedom of expressed religion might just be part of that which would fulfill a quick and instant death.

So you might be on to something there.

Interesting the term "peace and security" are likewise associated with this last drastic action. Finally a non-religious, totally political state.

Not saying this is how it will happen exactly but this scenario is consistent with the scriptures saying that "while still alive" religion will be destroyed instantly. I can't imagine that happening without a mandate of some sort.

What a tribulation this will be, though, for those holding onto the WTS!!!!

On the other hand, it seems quite interesting the forethought in which Christ's anointed members through the "JIOR" are organized. They are depicted as the woman who gives birth to the child in Revelation who "has a place prepared for her by God" in the wilderness. Thus a secret society. Thus any ban on religion would not affect any "secret society" who don't have any public symbols or meeting places.

Chronologically, therefore, it would appear, since there is just a "time and a season" (one year 3 months) given to the nations to survive the destruction of Babylon the Great ("the fourth beast") that this quick pitch into the lake by Christ will be at the same time Babylon the Great is destroyed, also said to be thrown into the sea with a quick pitch!

So this could be real.

Of course, on a desperate and practical side of things, obviously a non-religious world would be a step to mankind having peace and security because people fight or little else. I can't imagine this going down without a fight though. Those already "worshipping" as part of secret societies, though, have no fear of this and, in fact, God's preparing them for this seems apparent. It will thus only affect "false religion" and not the true.

The woman of Revelation is "away from the face of Satan" which means cannot be seen by his spy organizations either. He disgorges a river after her, meaning propaganda to try to drown her, but her knowledge in Biblical and other research is too concrete to be overcome by these rivers of pseudo-sciecntific and historical propaganda and the "earth" swallows up the river; that is, their Biblical and scientific knowledge are more concrete than the watery propaganda.

Thanks for this post. Interesting. The details of the end of the world seem to be focusing into place as the reality moves in line with the theory and prophecy.

JC