Could this be why keep 'splitting' congregations.
Also many are babyboomers/teens, so looks like a 20% + constantly leaving.
EndofMysteries
JoinedPosts by EndofMysteries
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20
Do we have stats on a 'mass exodus'?
by Aussie Oz ini see at times, talk of how many are leaving the jws, how the young ones are leaving in droves, that more and more are 'waking up' etc.. can we substanciate this?.
i mean, actual stats to show this, not just small or negitive growth in lands such as the united states, as there are larger growths in other countries.. there are of course the downsizings of bethels etc, but downsizing is not always a sign of members leaving is it?
sales may be down resulting in streamlining organization as with any corporation.. numbers d/f each year getting larger?
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Would any of you DESTROY ones faith and life as a JW if they were your dying grandparents?
by EndofMysteries inthis is a serious question, trying to decide the right thing to do.........i do believe in god, i am sorting out what i believe and true from lie and such.
have question on how atheist and just ones belief in god would respond to this.. .
if you have a grandparent, (or even some relative) who spent their entire life as a jw.
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EndofMysteries
Nice replies -
Yea, I am leaning for them on that. Just knowing what they believe, to shatter that, and no time for them to read and make their own truth.
I know for me it was like God revealing to me the lies, didn't need to go through anyone. My younger friends and relatives, a diff story....
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Would any of you DESTROY ones faith and life as a JW if they were your dying grandparents?
by EndofMysteries inthis is a serious question, trying to decide the right thing to do.........i do believe in god, i am sorting out what i believe and true from lie and such.
have question on how atheist and just ones belief in god would respond to this.. .
if you have a grandparent, (or even some relative) who spent their entire life as a jw.
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EndofMysteries
This is a serious question, trying to decide the right thing to do.........I DO believe in God, I am sorting out what I believe and true from lie and such. Have question on how atheist and just ones belief in God would respond to this.
If you have a grandparent, (or even some relative) who spent their entire life as a JW. They are told they don't have much time, sick, etc. I'm first trying to figure if in God's eyes, if they have full faith in him, (that his will be done through the GB and they can trust in it), and they have a fairly clean conscience, should just let it be? I KNOW if I showed all, it would destroy their faith. Especially since don't have all the answers now, if God would want to just let them go in peace and rest. On the other end of that spectrum, years of judging perhaps built up, opening their eyes, even though very painful, may be better if they have a chance to least remove any judging from their hearts and even though will feel they wasted their whole life, to realize works don't do it?
For atheists - (Gonna guess since don't believe, don't say anything, let them go in peace?)
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Do we have stats on a 'mass exodus'?
by Aussie Oz ini see at times, talk of how many are leaving the jws, how the young ones are leaving in droves, that more and more are 'waking up' etc.. can we substanciate this?.
i mean, actual stats to show this, not just small or negitive growth in lands such as the united states, as there are larger growths in other countries.. there are of course the downsizings of bethels etc, but downsizing is not always a sign of members leaving is it?
sales may be down resulting in streamlining organization as with any corporation.. numbers d/f each year getting larger?
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EndofMysteries
Taking the total number of 'baptised' for X number of years. The total number of 'active' at the first year, and the total number active last year. That will give a rough estimate.
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Worldwide religion SHAKEDOWN.......no scriptures...WHY it's coming NOW..
by EndofMysteries inif you do 'or' do not believe in the bible, this is exciting to know!.
first a quick overview of the history of the bible we have today (did not include everything only some key points), which is a real eye opener when we get to today, 2010.. (you'll also see many similarities of the gb and wt to the clergy who persecuted those trying to get the bible in english)....... ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------.
the dead sea scrolls date about date between 150 bce and 70 ce.
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EndofMysteries
If you do 'or' do not believe in the bible, this is exciting to know!
First a quick overview of the history of the bible we have today (did not include everything only some key points), which is a real eye opener when we get to today, 2010.. (YOU'LL ALSO SEE MANY SIMILARITIES OF THE GB AND WT TO THE CLERGY WHO PERSECUTED THOSE TRYING TO GET THE BIBLE IN ENGLISH)......
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The dead sea scrolls date about date between 150 BCE and 70 CE.
Christianity was under intense persecution by Rome until 311/321. The emporer of Rome was to be worshipped as a god, and refusual to do that was one of the big instigators of the persecution.
From 320's AD to 1380AD - when John Wycliffe wrote the first hand written copys of the bible in English, the bible was only in Latin, and anybody wishing to know it's words was generally by hearing the priests and monks read it, and teach them their understanding of it. (Unfortunately, many were executed and unable to copy or teach at this point)
1450's was when the first printing press was invented.
In 1516 Erasumus is moved to correct the corrupt latin vulgate, and broadcast that scriptures need to be translated from the original hebrew and greek. (I would be interested to see what 'corrections' he did if anybody knows where to locate that)
In 1526 first english, Tyndales bible, on printing press. He was eventually caught and burned at the stake. The church claimed it contained thousands of errors. With bible in the common language, no longer could they control the scriptures, and what man would believe. Men could challenge the teachings of indulgences, and paying to get loved ones out of purgatory, etc.
1560 was first numbered bible, the Geneva bible, making it easy to locate scriptures. Bible now able to more safely be distributed. Mostly based off Tyndales bible.
1582 - Rome realizes they lost fight for english translation of bible available to all, so they make the Rheim's new testament, based off of latin vulgate, not original hebrew / greek.
1611 - King James released - (combination of most translations and supposedly original as well, and removing the negative remarks in the Geneva bible) Geneva bible out of print by 1644.
1600's - religious persecution still persists, and for religous freedom the 'Pilgrims' flood over to America
1782 - first 'english' bible printed in America, a KJV by Robert Aitken
1881 -William Henry Conley - First president of Zion's Watchtower Society
1881 - english revised and wescott and hort greek text released, both few weeks apart. then by 1883 they are merged (this is, the wescott and hort) what the NWT is based on. The WT never translated from scratch their own, they used theirs, and just "as in interlinear style", made a few changes here and there.
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What does this all mean?
In about 2000 years of Christian history, (old testament + ??? more )
457 - years ago, anyone with a bible, english bible, dissenter of Roman Catholic, was burned at the stake, and no possible way to learn bible truth.
228 - years ago, when english bible printing in USA began - at the very least, in USA, - at this point, bible circulation and ownership by those other then just the pastors/bishops on a 'wide scale' was able to begin
126 - years since Russell became Watchtower president - (other organizations started as well, it was when branches of Christianity / new testament based religions really started multiplying, and since out of almost 2,000 years, only the past 100 years had opened the way for the masses to read the bible and study and form their own opinions. The first ones to have radical changes, and with the right resources, were able to grab and snatch all who were ripe for learning by showing them answers which appeared to make more sense then church teachings. Then as the organizations grew they changed and claimed only THEY get the understanding and impossible for individuals to learn it) - When THAT happened, put things in reverse for many. It was equivalent to Roman Catholic forbidding any to be able to read the bible in their own language. Making many believe that, even though they 'have' the bible, it's useless 'looking' for understanding. With many publications, to cover' EVERY' scripture, at the very least with jibberish, and if one did not understand or agree with it, that they just don't have the holy spirit of understanding.
63 years ago - discovery of dead sea scrolls, over 1900 documents, including most of the old testament
33 years ago - the first home computer (1977) was made.
19 years ago - FIRST www world wide website ever made
17 years ago - (1993) world wide web released to general public
12 years ago - true search engines really taking hold vs paid directory listings (able to really start searching for keywords to find websites)
9 years ago - websites and information availabe online really take off, jump from under 5 million to 20 million websites in 1 year
TODAY - over 180 million websites, with COMPUTERS and internet, we have access to almost ANY resource or book out there, within SECONDS. We can grab books and information in other languages and have basic translations in seconds. Able to view many of the dead sea scrolls interlinear or english translations ONLINE. Able to do word searches in bibles for every instance of a certain word or phrase to research and study the bible at very high speeds. Able to find and read notes and ideas from ANYBODY that's posted online what your researching just by typing in the phrase or word. Can check almost every in existence print of the bible from original hebrew/greek scrolls, almost every translation and print version online. For the first time in almost 2000 YEARS, ONLY these past 9 years, are we able to research, to learn more about the bible and dissect it, to type in a word or name in the bible like A'morite and get pictures, history, resources, every occurance of the word in the bible, learn the hebrew meaning, compare scrolls for any variation in the rendering of the name.
RIGHT NOW many really looking for it, and once all of the places are just right, once solid truth and understanding no matter how good or bad it may be, where all researching will find the answer to be the same and agree, you can be sure a wave of youtube videos, viral marketing, messages, the real 'truth' can be spread virtually overnight and available to almost 2 BILLION people worldwide, instantly. Like a virus, multiplying and spreading. With each day more and more documents available, our ability to locate them and how easy, will be incredibly hard for many things of relgious nature to remain hidden.
((Interesting thing, almost scary, the description of the false prophet and demonic inspired utterances in Revelation how they go forth as frogs throughout the earth, kinda matches that, in 'how' it's done that is))
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If Jehovah Disapproved Of Polygamy & Concubines Why Did He Bless Those Involved?
by minimus inabraham, solomon and others got god's seal of approval.
if they were truly sinning, you would think it would've been clearly expressed in the 10 commandments and the law.
instead, god blessed those involved in adultery and fornication..
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EndofMysteries
It's funny you mention that, my study today I was pondering it, for a different reason.
GENESIS 6:2 - then the sons of the [true] God began to notice the daughters of men, that they were good-looking; and they went taking wives for themselves, namely, ALL whom they chose.
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Twisting Scripture vs A Literal Reading
by AllTimeJeff inknowing that passions run deep on this matter, i have what i believe to be a very simple premise for a discussion of how to read the bible.. terry has labored over the last couple of months to demonstrate (in my view, conclusively) that the bible is far from unaltered, and often mistranslated.
these facts, inconvenient as they might be for believers, are nonetheless, a problem for those who claim that the bible is the word of god.. this is not what i wish to discuss... rather..... jehovah's witnesses come from a tradition of "reading in" or "adding meaning" to the scriptures.
no one jw outside of the governing body is allowed to do this.. but why is it necesarry?.
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EndofMysteries
Terry -
Can understand that line of thinking, but can you explain this......
First, the dead sea scrolls generally date between 150BCE and 70CE.
The fall of Tyre, and how it would happen was predicted. Even so much as to say it would be underwater. - It happened and today you can still see it!
Then Israel itself, aside from Jesus warning, in many of the books it speaks of the seige on Israel, and how because of the famine they would eat their own children and cannibalism. That happened as well and documented.
The reason I mention the dates of the dead sea scrolls, is because one may say, "well maybe the bible was written hundreds of years after that."
So other then people 'wanting' to believe in it. How is it explained how it's prophecies have a good track record, especially the more specific ones, which leave no doubt as to fulfillment.
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The Great Tribulation soon?
by Kosonen inrecently i have looked at youtube on interesting topics.
i wrote also to all 129 bethel-homes around the world and suggested them to search on youtube on illuminati, freemasons, 666, new world order, fema coffins, fema concentration camps, rfid chip, rockefeller, antichrist.. very interesting stuff!
i suggest you also to search on "the third temple" could soon to be built in jerusalem.
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EndofMysteries
And for someone who is solid firm in their choice and no answer will make a difference, you sure complain a lot.
I will answer this ONE question you've implied, and see if you actually do anything with it. Let me know.
The name, the hub to them........... n u m i s m a t i c s o c i e t y
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Twisting Scripture vs A Literal Reading
by AllTimeJeff inknowing that passions run deep on this matter, i have what i believe to be a very simple premise for a discussion of how to read the bible.. terry has labored over the last couple of months to demonstrate (in my view, conclusively) that the bible is far from unaltered, and often mistranslated.
these facts, inconvenient as they might be for believers, are nonetheless, a problem for those who claim that the bible is the word of god.. this is not what i wish to discuss... rather..... jehovah's witnesses come from a tradition of "reading in" or "adding meaning" to the scriptures.
no one jw outside of the governing body is allowed to do this.. but why is it necesarry?.
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EndofMysteries
Here is a good laugh! I just posted this in a diff thread, but here is GB's food at the proper time of the Ez 31 scripture I posted.
W77 P. 302
5 “And its boughs kept multiplying, and its branches continued getting longer because of much water in its watercourses. On its boughs all the flying creatures of the heavens made their nests, and under its branches all the wild beasts of the field gave birth, and in its shade all the populous nations would dwell. And it came to be pretty in its greatness, in the length of its foliage, for its root system proved to be over many waters. Other cedars were no match for it in the garden of God. As for juniper trees, they bore no resemblance as respects its boughs. And plane trees themselves did not prove to be like it in branches. No other tree in the garden of God resembled it in its prettiness. Pretty is the way that I made it in the abundance of its foliage, and all the other trees of Eden that were in the garden of the true God kept envying it.”—Ezek. 31:3-9.
6 The Republic of Lebanon has been much in the world news in recent years, but the cedars on the mountains of Lebanon have been famous for millenniums. (Note Judges 9:15.) No man planted those tall wide-spreading cedars there. Cedar trees were already on site before the confusion of the human language at the Tower of Babel scattered the builders in all directions from ancient Babylon on the Euphrates River, in the second century after the global flood. The Creator of heaven and earth takes the credit for planting those cedars. So Psalm 80:10 speaks of them as “the cedars of God,” and Psalm 104:16 calls them “the cedars of Lebanon that he [Jehovah] planted.”
7 The fact that these cedars, together with the juniper and plane trees, were said to be in Eden and in “the garden of God” does not mean that the garden of Eden was restored after the deluge of Noah’s day, 2370 B.C.E. Rather, the location of this particular cedar was so pleasant, so Edenic, so like man’s original home, that it was like “the garden of God.” The Hebrew word for “garden” (gan) means, basically, a “fenced-in or enclosed place”; and we remember that the original “garden of Eden” had a passageway “at the east of the garden” through which the disobedient Adam and Eve were driven out and where God stationed the cherubs “to guard the way to the tree of life.”—Gen. 3:24.
8 In the days of the prophecy of Ezekiel the cedar-famed land of Lebanon was so beautiful that Ezekiel was inspired to say to the king of Tyre (a seaport of Lebanon): “In Eden, the garden of God, you proved to be. . . . You are the anointed cherub that is covering, and I have set you. On the holy mountain of God you proved to be.” (Ezek. 28:11-14) Quite appropriately, then, in the seventh century B.C.E. this specially “pretty” cedar of Lebanon was spoken of as being in Eden, in “the garden of God.” It was therefore in a highly favored location, with fine possibilities. -
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Jehovah's people, Egypt, his sword, Assyria, and his inheritance, Israel
by EndofMysteries inthis scripture alone may not raise a flag in ones mind, combined with many other things i've been noticing, it surely does.
what are your thoughts on what this means?.
isaiah 19:24 - in that day israel will come to be the third with egypt and with assyria, namely, a blessing in the midst of the earth, 25 because jehovah of armies will have blessed it, saying: blessed be my people, egypt, and the work of my hands, assyria, and my inheritance, israel.
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EndofMysteries
Gotta take a dump here........W77 P.302 - (Summary - "THE FACT, DOES NOT MEAN, RATHER QUITE APPROPRIATELY IT WAS THEREFORE..") - Yet disagreeing with this explanation would get you labeled apostate lol. .................
W77 p. 302
5 “And its boughs kept multiplying, and its branches continued getting longer because of much water in its watercourses. On its boughs all the flying creatures of the heavens made their nests, and under its branches all the wild beasts of the field gave birth, and in its shade all the populous nations would dwell. And it came to be pretty in its greatness, in the length of its foliage, for its root system proved to be over many waters. Other cedars were no match for it in the garden of God. As for juniper trees, they bore no resemblance as respects its boughs. And plane trees themselves did not prove to be like it in branches. No other tree in the garden of God resembled it in its prettiness. Pretty is the way that I made it in the abundance of its foliage, and all the other trees of Eden that were in the garden of the true God kept envying it.”—Ezek. 31:3-9.
6 The Republic of Lebanon has been much in the world news in recent years, but the cedars on the mountains of Lebanon have been famous for millenniums. (Note Judges 9:15.) No man planted those tall wide-spreading cedars there. Cedar trees were already on site before the confusion of the human language at the Tower of Babel scattered the builders in all directions from ancient Babylon on the Euphrates River, in the second century after the global flood. The Creator of heaven and earth takes the credit for planting those cedars. So Psalm 80:10 speaks of them as “the cedars of God,” and Psalm 104:16 calls them “the cedars of Lebanon that he [Jehovah] planted.”
7 THE FACT that these cedars, together with the juniper and plane trees, were said to be in Eden and in “the garden of God” DOES NOT MEAN that the garden of Eden was restored after the deluge of Noah’s day, 2370 B.C.E. RATHER, the location of this particular cedar was so pleasant, so Edenic, so like man’s original home, that it was like “the garden of God.” The Hebrew word for “garden” (gan) means, basically, a “fenced-in or enclosed place”; and we remember that the original “garden of Eden” had a passageway “at the east of the garden” through which the disobedient Adam and Eve were driven out and where God stationed the cherubs “to guard the way to the tree of life.”—Gen. 3:24.
8 In the days of the prophecy of Ezekiel the cedar-famed land of Lebanon was so beautiful that Ezekiel was inspired to say to the king of Tyre (a seaport of Lebanon): “In Eden, the garden of God, you proved to be. . . . You are the anointed cherub that is covering, and I have set you. On the holy mountain of God you proved to be.” (Ezek. 28:11-14) QUITE APPROPRIATELY, then, in the seventh century B.C.E. this specially “pretty” cedar of Lebanon was spoken of as being in Eden, in “the garden of God.” IT WAS THEREFORE in a highly favored location, with fine possibilities.