Posts by EndofMysteries

243

Giant thread of convince-me-not-to-be-a-theist

by DS211 in

jw
friends

if you could teach me one thing to convince me not to believe what would it be?

for instance what has the wt taught about evolution/science or mans existence that is wrong and could possibly change skmeones mind?

and the more important question, why is it a creator couldnt allow for species to evolve?

EndofMysteries

snareandracket = define, 'final form'. When I say God created things in their final form, I am saying that when he was done, he did not personally change them after that.

Actually to both you and adamah, my question is why do you think that if God created all life, that is must be completely unchanged from then on?

If that's the case then the whole world can dismiss God if anybody goes to the beach and gets a tan, because according to snareandracket, they have changed their 'final form'. Or once a baby gets it's teeth, or as a person ages, since their 'final form' keeps changing each day.

Or it's impossible that God would create life forms that would 'adapt' to their envirnments.

If God did that, then you'd all be saying God is an idiot for not allowing things to adapt to climate changes, surroundings, etc, and everything just dies off.

So why are you cherry picking adamah?

There is a difference between those who believe in evolving as in 'adapting' vs evolving as in complete change of species.

For example, humans have evolved creating what we call races based off of the amount and strength of sunlight exposure over generations upon generations.

However, I don't believe that a human over thousands or millions of years would ever evolve into a bird or a crocodile.

And I don't believe the opposite, that some goo or cell in a glass of water can evolve into all of the millions of different lifeforms on the earth over a trillion years or whatever you believe happened.

You can't equate adapting to surroundings to spawning completely different forms of life as the same thing.

15

The true meaning on how light and darkness/day and night are created BEFORE the sun and moon....

by EndofMysteries in

i could get real deep into this topic because every phase of the creation days go much further than how they appear when read in a literal sense.

i am only going to stick to the question and explanation in the title of the thread.

many say the bible and creation days make no sense at all, how is day and night, and morning/evening, all done before the sun and moon which we use for day and night and morning and evening created?

EndofMysteries

You just clicked on the chapter of which old testament book you want to see then a PDF will pop up. You see the hebrew, then the hebrew to english translation on the bottom, then the right column is normally how it would be presented in a bible.

The bottom translation is the closest to go on. Even that part is not fully fool proof, for example, you'll see that adm (directly under the hebrew) is then translated into either Adam or man. It's the same word. The translator is then guessing if it's talking about the name adam or just man in general. That example alone can get interesting, for example the prophecies about the "son of man", could hypothetically be translated , "son of adam". Then you have scriptures I think talking about how Jesus was slain in the founding of the world, Rev 13:8. Could son of man actually be son of adam, abel, who was the first one slain?

The interlinear is definitely a big step closer to seeing the true message of the bible, but there are small things like that still left for interpretation if one doesn't learn hebrew.

15

The true meaning on how light and darkness/day and night are created BEFORE the sun and moon....

by EndofMysteries in

i could get real deep into this topic because every phase of the creation days go much further than how they appear when read in a literal sense.

i am only going to stick to the question and explanation in the title of the thread.

many say the bible and creation days make no sense at all, how is day and night, and morning/evening, all done before the sun and moon which we use for day and night and morning and evening created?

EndofMysteries

DS211 - I currently use http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/Hebrew_Index.htm

243

Giant thread of convince-me-not-to-be-a-theist

by DS211 in

jw
friends

if you could teach me one thing to convince me not to believe what would it be?

for instance what has the wt taught about evolution/science or mans existence that is wrong and could possibly change skmeones mind?

and the more important question, why is it a creator couldnt allow for species to evolve?

EndofMysteries

adamah - the melanocyte count being fixed I believe in regards to once a person is born. Hence a black person won't ever become full white unless they have a michael jackson type disorder. However I don't believe it's fixed for generation upon generation over thousands of years.

Why are black/africans darker then arabs? While arabs for thousands of years were wearing full body garments, african blacks as evidenced by recent history would be close to fully naked.

If the amount is fixed over generation upon generation and not just once one is born, then the skin color tone wouldn't match up with sun exposure over thousands of years. Fully naked blacks or fully clothed arabs over thousands of years would have the same skin tone. Or maybe reversed, etc.

If there were different human races, different kinds of humans in their true form from creation, I believe they have been wiped out. The giants, etc.

As for modern day humans, if you are saying that skeletons with larger jawbones were different races, I would disagree with that. Just like skin color can change over thousands of years due to sun exposure over generations, diet changes and eating habits could change our jaw structure. This is even proven in a recent study, I'm just cutting and pasting this part......

"The rise of agriculture allowed for the development of complex societies and technologies that likely wouldn't have been possible otherwise. It also wreaked havoc on human health. And we can add a new downside to the list: our misshapen mouths.

That's the finding of University of Kent researcher Noreen von Cramon-Taubadel, who examined 295 human jaws from various museum specimens around the world. She found that, even adjusting for climate, geographic, and genetic variation, a consistent pattern emerged: people from agricultural societies have significantly smaller mouths that their counterparts in hunter-gatherer societies.

In itself, that wouldn't be such a bad thing, but the problem is that we all have exactly the same number of teeth. Von Cramon-Taubadel speculates that agricultural societies tend to produce people with smaller jaws because the ground grains and processed animal products we eat are softer than the wild plants and animals eaten by hunter-gatherers."

15

The true meaning on how light and darkness/day and night are created BEFORE the sun and moon....

by EndofMysteries in

i could get real deep into this topic because every phase of the creation days go much further than how they appear when read in a literal sense.

i am only going to stick to the question and explanation in the title of the thread.

many say the bible and creation days make no sense at all, how is day and night, and morning/evening, all done before the sun and moon which we use for day and night and morning and evening created?

EndofMysteries

adamah - another thing, I know the JW's always put babylon as being pure evil and the bad guys, but repeatedly in the bible, it shows God used Babylon and many times the kings of babylon had much respect for the God of Israel. If all of that is true, then there is a chance the babylon teachings of the creation were adopted or learned from the israelites. It could go either way, but since there are many things in the old testament hinting towards more to the story then is widely understood, and that the hebrew old testament also has the male and female attributes, that it might be a close copy of what Israel believed and why is says "us" in genesis for the creation.

15

The true meaning on how light and darkness/day and night are created BEFORE the sun and moon....

by EndofMysteries in

i could get real deep into this topic because every phase of the creation days go much further than how they appear when read in a literal sense.

i am only going to stick to the question and explanation in the title of the thread.

many say the bible and creation days make no sense at all, how is day and night, and morning/evening, all done before the sun and moon which we use for day and night and morning and evening created?

EndofMysteries

adamah - I looked it up a bit and they are close to identical. The israelite story also has the male and female. http://faculty.gvsu.edu/websterm/Enuma_Elish.html for example in a hebrew interlinear, the earth is female as well and the sky is male. Even in nature that makes sense, it's a little gross to think of it but I believe some civilizations believed that earth / dirt was female and sky was male and rain was like semen. the rain penetrates the seed in the female ground and the seed grows.

also in the bible, does it not say, 'let US create man'? Also in the NT, Jesus is said to have been with God 'in the beginning'.

It's interesting you pointed that out, but even more interesting that the hebrew scriptures still have a male/female part.

In Jeremiah the Israelites are said to be worshipping the "queen of the heavens". Wisdom is given a 'female' attribute in the scriptures and is said to have been God's masterworker I think?

Even if the babylon writings are older, it wouldn't make it wrong if there was any truth to them whether from the israel or babylonian side of it.

243

Giant thread of convince-me-not-to-be-a-theist

by DS211 in

jw
friends

if you could teach me one thing to convince me not to believe what would it be?

for instance what has the wt taught about evolution/science or mans existence that is wrong and could possibly change skmeones mind?

and the more important question, why is it a creator couldnt allow for species to evolve?

EndofMysteries

also they were in final form, or are you saying that when you are tanning from being in the sun or losing it from not being in the sun, that God is modifying you vs a built in defense mechanism.

243

Giant thread of convince-me-not-to-be-a-theist

by DS211 in

jw
friends

if you could teach me one thing to convince me not to believe what would it be?

for instance what has the wt taught about evolution/science or mans existence that is wrong and could possibly change skmeones mind?

and the more important question, why is it a creator couldnt allow for species to evolve?

EndofMysteries

adamah - the bible does NOT say God created man and women 'according to their kinds'. It only says he proceeded to create man in his image. male and female he created them. The bible does not hint towards different races or kinds being created. Only with animals and other creatures does it say, 'according to their kinds'.

So God created humans and when seperated around the world in different climates and isolated from eachother, their conditions, lifestyle, etc, over long period of time resulted in difference races.

15

The true meaning on how light and darkness/day and night are created BEFORE the sun and moon....

by EndofMysteries in

i could get real deep into this topic because every phase of the creation days go much further than how they appear when read in a literal sense.

i am only going to stick to the question and explanation in the title of the thread.

many say the bible and creation days make no sense at all, how is day and night, and morning/evening, all done before the sun and moon which we use for day and night and morning and evening created?

EndofMysteries

confusedandalone - perhaps, but the bottom line is the creation account as written without translation error is NOT out of order and it does make sense. Anybody can have their multitude of reasons to still not believe, but it shouldn't be based on thinking the bible says that grass and trees grew prior to the sun being created, or that daytime and daylight and nightlight on the earth were here before the sun and moon were made when that isn't what it was saying.

15

The true meaning on how light and darkness/day and night are created BEFORE the sun and moon....

by EndofMysteries in

i could get real deep into this topic because every phase of the creation days go much further than how they appear when read in a literal sense.

i am only going to stick to the question and explanation in the title of the thread.

many say the bible and creation days make no sense at all, how is day and night, and morning/evening, all done before the sun and moon which we use for day and night and morning and evening created?

EndofMysteries

confusedandalone - when you read and understand it through the interlinear, it is pretty simple. Blame the translators.