Posts by EndofMysteries

64

Twisting Scripture vs A Literal Reading

by AllTimeJeff in

knowing that passions run deep on this matter, i have what i believe to be a very simple premise for a discussion of how to read the bible.. terry has labored over the last couple of months to demonstrate (in my view, conclusively) that the bible is far from unaltered, and often mistranslated.

these facts, inconvenient as they might be for believers, are nonetheless, a problem for those who claim that the bible is the word of god.. this is not what i wish to discuss... rather..... jehovah's witnesses come from a tradition of "reading in" or "adding meaning" to the scriptures.

no one jw outside of the governing body is allowed to do this.. but why is it necesarry?.

EndofMysteries

notverylikely - if that was purely the case, why did the catholic church forbid anybody to possess one? Why were any caught with one burned on the stake with it?

64

Twisting Scripture vs A Literal Reading

by AllTimeJeff in

knowing that passions run deep on this matter, i have what i believe to be a very simple premise for a discussion of how to read the bible.. terry has labored over the last couple of months to demonstrate (in my view, conclusively) that the bible is far from unaltered, and often mistranslated.

these facts, inconvenient as they might be for believers, are nonetheless, a problem for those who claim that the bible is the word of god.. this is not what i wish to discuss... rather..... jehovah's witnesses come from a tradition of "reading in" or "adding meaning" to the scriptures.

no one jw outside of the governing body is allowed to do this.. but why is it necesarry?.

EndofMysteries

notverylikely - okay so you dismiss Genesis account of literal Garden of Eden, especially since most say it is literal. I just show you a scripture in the bible, showing it speaking of garden of Eden in a symbolic sense and it's trees symbolic. Make your own choice. Sounds like it may have brought in you a thought that, "wait, if it is symbolic.....maybe there are valid answers for other parts, maybe some truth". Then quickly close your ears and eyes to any way in which it could be symbolic or truth.

AND if you take Jeff's advice, then things you can't accept in a book of the bible, wouldn't invalidate others.

I'll just say, I don't blame anybody for no belief in any of it based on what they are told the books are saying.

5

Jehovah's people, Egypt, his sword, Assyria, and his inheritance, Israel

by EndofMysteries in

this scripture alone may not raise a flag in ones mind, combined with many other things i've been noticing, it surely does.

what are your thoughts on what this means?.

isaiah 19:24 - in that day israel will come to be the third with egypt and with assyria, namely, a blessing in the midst of the earth, 25 because jehovah of armies will have blessed it, saying: blessed be my people, egypt, and the work of my hands, assyria, and my inheritance, israel.

EndofMysteries

Thanks Jeff, on an unrelated tropic, I ran into this............I'm amazed when I run into scriptures like the above....then just land on further scriptures for more answers, like answers from God. I have never heard of this before...................... it's talkinga bout Egypt in Garden of Eden and Syria (Assyrian).

Adds further credibility to some possible truths hidden in the bible...

Ezekiel 31

31 And it occurred further that in the eleventh year, in the third [month], on the first [day] of the month, the word of Jehovah occurred to me, saying: 2 “Son of man, say to Phar′aoh the king of Egypt and to his crowd,
“‘Whom have you come to resemble in your greatness? 3 Look! An As·syr′i·an, a cedar in Leb′a·non, pretty in bough, with a woody thicket offering shadow, and high in stature, so that among the clouds its treetop proved to be. 4 Waters were what made it get big; the watery deep caused it to grow high. With its streams it was going all around its planting place; and its channels it sent forth to all the trees of the field. 5 That is why it grew higher in its stature than all the [other] trees of the field.
“‘And its boughs kept multiplying, and its branches continued getting longer because of much water in its watercourses. 6 On its boughs all the flying creatures of the heavens made their nests, and under its branches all the wild beasts of the field gave birth, and in its shade all the populous nations would dwell. 7 And it came to be pretty in its greatness, in the length of its foliage, for its root system proved to be over many waters. 8 [Other] cedars were no match for it in the garden of God. As for juniper trees, they bore no resemblance as respects its boughs. And plane trees themselves did not prove to be like it in branches. No [other] tree in the garden of God resembled it in its prettiness. 9 Pretty is the way that I made it in the abundance of its foliage, and all the [other] trees of E′den that were in the garden of the [true] God kept envying it.’
10 “Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said, ‘For the reason that you became high in stature, so that it put its treetop even among the clouds and its heart became exalted because of its height, 11 I shall also give it into the hand of the despot of [the] nations. Without fail he will act against it. According to its wickedness I will drive it out. 12 And strangers, the tyrants of [the] nations, will cut it down, and people will abandon it upon the mountains; and in all the valleys its foliage will certainly fall, and its branches will be broken among all the streambeds of the earth. And out from its shade all the peoples of the earth will come down and abandon it. 13 Upon its fallen trunk all the flying creatures of the heavens will reside, and upon its branches there will certainly come to be all the wild beasts of the field; 14 to the end that none of the watered trees may become high in their stature, or put their treetops even among the clouds, and that none drinking water may stand up against them in their height, for they will certainly all of them be given to death, to the land down below, in the midst of the sons of mankind, to those going down into the pit.’
15 “This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said, ‘On the day of its going down to She′ol I shall certainly cause a mourning. On its account I will cover the watery deep, that I may hold back its streams and [that] the many waters may be restrained; and on its account I shall darken Leb′a·non, and on its account the trees of the field will all swoon away. 16 At the sound of its downfall I shall certainly cause nations to rock when I bring it down to She′ol with those going down into the pit, and in the land down below all the trees of E′den, the choicest and the best of Leb′a·non, all those drinking water, will be comforted. 17 With him they themselves also have gone down to She′ol, to those slain by the sword, and those who as his seed have dwelt in his shadow in the midst of nations.’
18 “‘Whom have you come to resemble thus in glory and greatness among the trees of E′den? But you will certainly be brought down with the trees of E′den to the land down below. In the midst of the uncircumcised ones you will lie down with those slain by the sword. This is Phar′aoh and all his crowd,’ is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah.”

64

Twisting Scripture vs A Literal Reading

by AllTimeJeff in

knowing that passions run deep on this matter, i have what i believe to be a very simple premise for a discussion of how to read the bible.. terry has labored over the last couple of months to demonstrate (in my view, conclusively) that the bible is far from unaltered, and often mistranslated.

these facts, inconvenient as they might be for believers, are nonetheless, a problem for those who claim that the bible is the word of god.. this is not what i wish to discuss... rather..... jehovah's witnesses come from a tradition of "reading in" or "adding meaning" to the scriptures.

no one jw outside of the governing body is allowed to do this.. but why is it necesarry?.

EndofMysteries

"faith in what? you were the one that did all the work." - point proven! Hopefully you think and look for some answers which 'you' have to do the work, and which you won't find online, so your faith could be built where it should.

64

Twisting Scripture vs A Literal Reading

by AllTimeJeff in

knowing that passions run deep on this matter, i have what i believe to be a very simple premise for a discussion of how to read the bible.. terry has labored over the last couple of months to demonstrate (in my view, conclusively) that the bible is far from unaltered, and often mistranslated.

these facts, inconvenient as they might be for believers, are nonetheless, a problem for those who claim that the bible is the word of god.. this is not what i wish to discuss... rather..... jehovah's witnesses come from a tradition of "reading in" or "adding meaning" to the scriptures.

no one jw outside of the governing body is allowed to do this.. but why is it necesarry?.

EndofMysteries

No, not typical non-answer. Everyone who thinks they know it, is all to eager to be a 'teacher' To have glory and people going to them. Even if motives are pure at first, easy snare, puffed up, and such occurs. Don't most all teach to go to 'them' for the answers. If you think I may have some, I'm telling you, I did not go to anyone for it, and I'm telling you how I got them. I think as soon as possible and from the start, one's goal should be to not need any human for guidance involving the bible and God.

I guess you didn't read my response on Garden of Eden - lets take it very basic. (Eating fruit from tree of knowledge of good and bad which then opened their eyes to what is good and bad is sin so then children inherited sin) OR (being told the knowledge by something or reading the knowledge from something which is 'symbolized' as tree of knowledge was a sin so then children inherited) On the literal understanding, even symbolically would not for sure invalidate it. There are 'other' symbolic possibilities which could.

About 'blindly believe'...............- here is what I did. In James is the scripture about Godly wisdom, if you need it, pray for it, but have NO doubts that you will receive it. Then also what Jesus said about asking father for spiritual food, he won't give a serpent or scorpion. Also the scriptures about draw close to God and he will draw close to you. - So my reasoning was.........we have in the bible those promises. Now Jesus when he prayed, said Our father in the heavens. I did a real sincere prayer, and made it very clear, it was intended for the creator of everything. (just incase deception even in our bible). I asked how am I supposed to know the truth if there is one, and what to do, etc. I was putting faith, that he see's my heart, and would guide me. That I'm taking a big leap of faith, and trusting in him. AND that based on what I been taught, I shouldn't even question any part of the bible, but I will even be open to things in there hard to accept, if there is any corruption, and also if I even think anything in the process that is not right, he will understand I'm looking for the truth and guide me to the truth of the matter. - I have no doubt I am getting some help. So many things being answered and finding many valid explanations. I'm still much in a learning phase, and hesitant to say much or give current thoughts, because I don't even want to lead someone in a direction of thinking which may be incorrect. Just assist right now in how they can learn and not be enslaved again by a religion or teaching of man.

64

Twisting Scripture vs A Literal Reading

by AllTimeJeff in

knowing that passions run deep on this matter, i have what i believe to be a very simple premise for a discussion of how to read the bible.. terry has labored over the last couple of months to demonstrate (in my view, conclusively) that the bible is far from unaltered, and often mistranslated.

these facts, inconvenient as they might be for believers, are nonetheless, a problem for those who claim that the bible is the word of god.. this is not what i wish to discuss... rather..... jehovah's witnesses come from a tradition of "reading in" or "adding meaning" to the scriptures.

no one jw outside of the governing body is allowed to do this.. but why is it necesarry?.

EndofMysteries

I presume, because I know the order in which I learned things to get to the understanding I'm at, at the moment. If you were a JW, its like trying to explain annointed and the 1,000 year reign and earthly resurrection if the householder believes in just heaven or hell when you die. I just know we don't have the same understanding at the moment.

Also......when you get answers and understanding without someone showing you, and unable to find online or anywhere, it does give you faith. If I 'could' or 'did' answer every question you had, and you believed it, you'd have faith or trust in me, and that would be bad. Build your house on the true rock.

64

Twisting Scripture vs A Literal Reading

by AllTimeJeff in

knowing that passions run deep on this matter, i have what i believe to be a very simple premise for a discussion of how to read the bible.. terry has labored over the last couple of months to demonstrate (in my view, conclusively) that the bible is far from unaltered, and often mistranslated.

these facts, inconvenient as they might be for believers, are nonetheless, a problem for those who claim that the bible is the word of god.. this is not what i wish to discuss... rather..... jehovah's witnesses come from a tradition of "reading in" or "adding meaning" to the scriptures.

no one jw outside of the governing body is allowed to do this.. but why is it necesarry?.

EndofMysteries

notverylikely - I haven't decided yet what I believe from book of Enoch, but I am taking it into heavy consideration. I been reading many non cannon books too.

- Where did sin come from...... - first I'll say, if your really seeking answers, may want to put your faith in God to show you and look in the bible. If you believe in the bible, then as the scriptures say it's impossible for any to get an accurate understanding unless God opens their mind to it. Hiding the sacred secret. If you don't believe, and need some help to even consider that and looking more...... your question about Jesus and where sin came from ........ the standard bible most americans have, (since as you point out different canon versions), does in a concealed way, have some alternative answers. WITHOUT an alternative answer, garden of Eden being symbolic would not invalidate the teaching of sin and ransom sacrifice. (if the tree of knowledge mean a creature, or book, something which imparts knowledge and answers), many scriptures in the bible if you search occurences of law, sin, knowledge, conscious, state that 'after' knowing something is wrong, or if you 'think' it could be, anything in doubt or knowledge is a sin.

- If you like reading other books too, there is an old book called, "adam and eve" I believe. Again Eden being symbolic 'if' the sin explanation given is true, would still hold.

- When I first started, it was very scary, nobody to turn to for the answers, but also if you look about the prophecys of the last days, they ALL say how God's people have been lead astray by the shepards. How HE will instruct his sheep, how HE will shepard them. Jesus says he will send the SPIRIT of TRUTH which will TEACH YOU all things. I could not find any scriptures showing there would be a place to go. Also realized perhaps it's a test of faith, putting faith in man for answers vs true faith in God.

64

Twisting Scripture vs A Literal Reading

by AllTimeJeff in

knowing that passions run deep on this matter, i have what i believe to be a very simple premise for a discussion of how to read the bible.. terry has labored over the last couple of months to demonstrate (in my view, conclusively) that the bible is far from unaltered, and often mistranslated.

these facts, inconvenient as they might be for believers, are nonetheless, a problem for those who claim that the bible is the word of god.. this is not what i wish to discuss... rather..... jehovah's witnesses come from a tradition of "reading in" or "adding meaning" to the scriptures.

no one jw outside of the governing body is allowed to do this.. but why is it necesarry?.

EndofMysteries

Also I might add, notverylikely, so far in my own experience, I don't try to force answers. If I might be looking up something and don't get a clear cut answer, I just let it go and take notes. I've found that through my other studies and other parts of reading, that some answers come later.

Have never learned to understand the bible this way, but without being taught by others, it starts to seem that many things CAN'T be taught, you must learn yourself, or God's spirit (if you believe).

Now to try to explain why, why LITERALLY there are things that I believe that you can't understand, would be quite hard. So here is a SYMBOLIC ILLUSTRATION why, can you learn how to division before learning addiction and subtraction? Learning math had to be done in an order. Bible, is so deep, when you learn something, which can be through remembering and having linked a few scriptures to get a clear understanding of part of it, can change the entire meaning or make it more clear of many other points in the bible.

Only God can know what you know and believe, and if your praying and trying to get answers, then you happen to read scriptures which seem to make sense or answer it, then makes the bible real and dynamic.

64

Twisting Scripture vs A Literal Reading

by AllTimeJeff in

knowing that passions run deep on this matter, i have what i believe to be a very simple premise for a discussion of how to read the bible.. terry has labored over the last couple of months to demonstrate (in my view, conclusively) that the bible is far from unaltered, and often mistranslated.

these facts, inconvenient as they might be for believers, are nonetheless, a problem for those who claim that the bible is the word of god.. this is not what i wish to discuss... rather..... jehovah's witnesses come from a tradition of "reading in" or "adding meaning" to the scriptures.

no one jw outside of the governing body is allowed to do this.. but why is it necesarry?.

EndofMysteries

notverylikely - I had 'suspicion' that the garden of Eden could be symbolic......................

.let me quote Ezekiel 31:8 - As for juniper trees, they bore no resemblance as respects its boughs. And plane trees themselves did not prove to be like it in branches. No [other] tree in the garden of God resembled it in its prettiness. 9 Pretty is the way that I made it in the abundance of its foliage, and all the [other] trees of E′den that were in the garden of the [true] God kept envying it.’

And ezekiel 31:18 - Whom have you come to resemble thus in glory and greatness among the trees of E′den? But you will certainly be brought down with the trees of E′den to the land down below. In the midst of the uncircumcised ones you will lie down with those slain by the sword. This is Phar′aoh and all his crowd,’ is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah.”

So, without me saying whether Eden is symbolic or literal in Genesis, there are other scriptures which can clue you in. I'm SO glad I just did this, because earlier I posted a scripture mentioned Egypt as Jehovah's people, and this is interesting, that mentions Phar'aoh and his crowd in Eden....hmmm........

As for Paul being caught up in heaven........he says in the 7th heaven I believe? or 3rd heaven? The only other reference to that, is the non canon book, Book of Enoch. For certain things with very little talk in the scriptures, at the very least, some other ancient books may clue you in as to what the authors or common people understood of the time.

20

PROVE these scriptures unrelated - also, EXPERIMENT: do you see a message here??

by EndofMysteries in

whether you believe in the bible or not, these are not completely separate books with nothing related.. this is the tip of the iceberg, but i wanted to demonstrate why i believe there is a deep hidden message in the bible, and that its books are linked.. does the bible itself reveal who the king of the north is?

(the whole world is trying to 'guess' and 'interpret' and treat all prophecies as individual).

(warning: this could set off a chain reaction and your searching the entire bible linking and getting better understanding of many prophecies ;) ).

EndofMysteries

I am not trying to teach or make a point, or i would have used different scriptures. I was using these as a demonstration of how to interpret and learn what a scripture may mean, without just looking at that one. That many are repeated, through several books, and one may learn through their own bible study.

Since many too lazy to even attempt to understand how that can be done, I grabbed the words, and showed how if they were related, it will help to learn it.

See, what the WT would do, is take the King of the North prophecy for example..........(((making this whole part up = W25 3/15 "The King of the North Exposed!" Dan 23:32 ="The king of the north floods over and takes much spoil, but then the ships of kittim deject him" - Brother Rutherford was arrested, the spiritual Israel was spoiled when the Bethel headquarters was emptied out. Evidently, the US government is the King of the North, and this scripture was fulfilled in 1919 when the ships of China attacked the US and were dejected, then Bro Rutherford was released, because Michael had come and said he was the faithful slave. Are we not thankful for this wonderful spiritual smorgasbord?)))

Next time, by knowing a good chance other scriptures are in the bible related to that, and since the whole thing is supposed to be in harmony, can find the other occurances and see if the interpretation is in agreement or biblically prove it wrong on the spot. Also instead of just throwing your hands in the air and saying, well since they don't got the truth, nobody does, and since nobody has it, there is no way to learn it, you will be able to on your own.