Posts by nugget

24

Was the Apostle Paul the Rutherford of his day?

by nugget in

i was doing reseaerch on early days of the society and remembered a radio programme about the apostle paul from earlier in the year.

the gist of the programme was that paul had remodeled the early christians in his image and that many of the restrictions and edicts from that time had little to do with jesus earlier teaching.

for example the vilification of homosexuals and the denegration of women.. this made me think about how rutherford changed the early bible students and added restrictions to them as well trying to remodel the organisation into something he could control.. jesus spent time teaching about the kingdom, preaching the need for love, forgiveness and acceptance.

nugget

I was doing reseaerch on early days of the society and remembered a radio programme about the Apostle Paul from earlier in the year. The gist of the programme was that Paul had remodeled the early christians in his image and that many of the restrictions and edicts from that time had little to do with Jesus earlier teaching. For example the vilification of homosexuals and the denegration of women.

This made me think about how Rutherford changed the early Bible students and added restrictions to them as well trying to remodel the organisation into something he could control.

Jesus spent time teaching about the kingdom, preaching the need for love, forgiveness and acceptance. In his parable of the prodigal son, the child was allowed to make his own choices in life and when he returned the father welcomed him home straight away. There was no restrictions or penance to be paid just love.

In Acts 15 we are told that when the older men in Jerusalem had considered what rules should be imposed on the congregations the list was small, no fornication, worship of false gods and blood. The Men who made these rules had no doubt known Jesus personally and made a considered judgement based on what they thought he would wish.

When Paul came on the scene he didn't have the gravitas of being one of the early disciples so he has a vision and Jesus speaks to him personally from heaven. The conversation is brief but Paul realises the error of his ways an converts. He then sets about making himself a leader within the organisation. He belittles the older men in Jerusalem in his letters and writings, he makes a point of belittling Peter telling him off publicly. The fact that Peter didn't lump him one in the congretion says more about Peter's christian qualities than Pauls. After all I don't recall Matt 18 telling people that if they have a problem with their brothers then they should tell them off in the congregation, write a letter to the circuit and then publish it for the world to see.

Pauls letters are full of added restrictions and rules. He introduces the idea of keeping the congregation clean and casting out those who don't follow the rules.(Judas was allowed to continue association with Jesus and if ever there was a case of the need for disfellowshipping he would be number 1) He puts women in their place (very Rutherford). Many people who oppose him are publicly are reprimanded through his letters and people are told to quit mixing with them.

The christianity of Paul seems some distance from Jesus and love has little place in his writings. It is left up to John to tell us about love and he was the disciple Jesus loved so I feel more warmth towards him.

So in organisation speak perhaps Rutherford was the antitypical Paul whoo hoo prophecy fulfilled. Except that would make Russell the antitypical Jesus, oh pooh that doesn't work.

What are your thoughts?

30

ADAM GROWS OLD

by Titus in

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nugget

Hi Titus,

I have looked to see if I can get some clarity on the issue. Unfortunately the bible does not give Eve much press. With reference to the birth of Seth Genesis 5v3 it states that Adam lived on for 130 years before fathering Seth and after Seth he lived for 800years. It doesn't offer any specifics as to how old Eve was when these events occurred.

It may be that these dates are recorded elsewhere or there has been something published in a magazine that speculates on this.

In recent articles the watchtower has stopped referring to the creative days as being 1000 yrs per day and use the expression serveral thousand years instead. This can mean an indeterminate length of time so how long has to pass from the creation of Adam until the end of the day of rest is uncertain.

Although there seems to be alot of rhetoric about loyalty and the end of the system being around the corner there is no mention of a date this time round.

As others have suggested there has been some effort to distance the society from 1975 and other dates. There is no doubt that in the past those dates were given prominence I remember it.

Welcome I look forward to seeing what others have found.

100

To you what was the Watchtower Socity's biggest lie ?

by The Almighty Homer in

yes, what was the biggest lie that you can think of, that persuaded you to realize that they were not who they said they were ?.

for myself it would have to be the year they picked as the destruction of ancient jerusalem 607 bc.. i have an assumption this was done purposely to coincide correctly with making 1914 an a important pivotal date.

in human history, which by all factual evidence it was not.. unassuming and deceiving manipulation for self marketing purposes.

nugget

That they have my best interests at heart. That benevolent old men with a direct line to God can help me see what God wants me to do. I cannot tell you how sad it made me to discover that the GB spends so much time voting on DF matters, infighting and other less noble acts. Brothers and sisters in Malawi and others have put their trust in people not God and suffered unimaginable hardships as a result.

It says that each one will render an account for himself to God so I think by the time God has finished dealing with the sins of the GB I should pretty much have a free pass.

44

Why do the Churches teach Adam was created perfect?

by acolytes in

this is not a bible teaching.

the bible says the opposite.. adam was created physically imperfect or he wouldnt have needed to be put out the garden so as not to be able to eat from the tree of life-.

adam was created morally imperfect or he wouldnt have failed his first test.

nugget

Bearing in mind that 40+ years of WT teaching are hard to break. My understanding was that Adam was physically perfect he must have been perfect since he was not going to die. He became physically imperfect when he ate from the tree of knowledge and at that point he started to degenerate.

However it says in Romans the wages sin pays is death. So it was not imperfection that caused degeneration and death but disobedience.

You raise an interesting point about the tree of life. The implication being, that eating from the tree of life would have restored Adam to perfection. After all there was no earlier prohibition about eating from the tree of life so did Adam need the tree to maintain physical health?

Will certainly give this some thought. Thanks.

35

How do I help my kids not buy into the JW thing?

by Judc in

jw
friends

first a little bit about myself.

i'm not a jw.

but i'm married to a jw lady who is very dedicated to it all.

nugget

I had another thought, when they are old enough you are perfectly placed to ask the awkward questions. Ask them to explain their beliefs, if something they have been taught conflicts with known science or history question them about it. People on this site know all the awkward questions.

You can always use the "I was surprised to read or find out ..." tack for more controversial things such as the WT becoming an NGO of the UN. Ask them what they think about it.

Read Crisis of conscience, this is a book no witness is allowed to read but it gives fabulous insight into the organisation and will provide much to discuss. You may have to be discreet about it though.

Best of luck

35

How do I help my kids not buy into the JW thing?

by Judc in

jw
friends

first a little bit about myself.

i'm not a jw.

but i'm married to a jw lady who is very dedicated to it all.

nugget

My father was not a witness although my Mum was and he was very anxious that we would make our own decisions. As a result we were not allowed to attend evening meetings, we had to attend school assemblies and he insisted we had Christmas and Birthdays. Despite his efforts it was hard to resist the organisation and the reason is that the people at the meetings become your friends and they seem like really nice people. Peer pressure to be part of the group means that over time you want to conform and be accepted. We told my Dad at the age of 8 that we didn't want him to buy us Christmas presents any more because of the influence of our Friends at the meeting.

The Watchtower tells you that your real friends are only found in the organisation and that worldly friends must be avoided so in order to keep your true friends you have to conform. What Children don't realise is the people are nice as long as you conform, and that friendship is conditional on obedience.

You cannot be complacent and hope that they will make the right decision later. Encourage them to have a wide circle of friends and not restrict their friendships to the organsation. That way if they decide to walk away then they have true friends who will help them overcome the loss of half their social circle.

Ask them often what they want to do with their life and if they express an interest in a career talk about how they can fulfil this dream and help them plan how they can achieve it. Later if they say they don't want to go to college because they want to pioneer you can remind them of their plans and encourage them to try to fulfill their dreams first as this system may end the opportunity may not always be open to them. After all if they are going to live forever there will be an abundance of chances to preach in the future.

Even though it was uncomfortable at times to conform with my fathers wishes and take part in activities that made me squirm because they went against WT teaching, it did lay the groundwork for me to think for myself later. by the way I really love my Dad and appreciate his stand.

I hope this helps.

49

New "apostate" here! Recent WT study- 'We may ask you to do something that may not understand' (basically- DO IT)

by 20+wastedYRS in

jw
friends

i will get to the big shocker that i read within the last year or two in a wt study article, so please bear with me... i am new to this forum and have been reading postings for several days now, and can relate totally to many of the issues that many ex-jw have.

i was raised "around" the truth and although my parents were never "dipped", they wouldn't allow us to celebrate holidays or stand for natl anthem (not that i care now).

so i basically had many of the pressures and stress that witness kids had growing up, but with no spiritual support, as we attended only a handful of meetings while my parents studied when i was 5or6.

nugget

I think the worst thing for me was finding out I had been so stupid. I like to think I am an intelligent and thinking person and yet I had been completely taken in for so long. I thought I had been given the best education, a divine education and yet I was actually spouting ill informed rubbish. Looking back it seems incredible that I was so pleased I could explain how to arrive at 1914 and yet the whole foundation for that is historically inaccurate.

I was cross that I had been set up as a fool. I found the only antidote was to read and inform myself. Flipper is right Steve Hassan has written some excellent books that actually explain how a cult works. They help to lance the boil.

Use your negative experience to spur you on it is never too late. Many people without our common experience are stuck in dead end jobs because they lack the will to change and do things differently. Channel your anger and disappointments into motivation and embrace the opportunities now open to you. We understand the shared frustration the pain and anger so use the forums we're here to help.

45

Nov.15th WT - Treasure your Place in Congregation- "Obey the Slave Class! "

by flipper in

jw
friends

once again the extremely controlling measures taken by the wt society are evident in the "witness only " nov.15th wt article " treasure your place in the congregation ".

as time goes on the governing body keeps pushing the thought into witnesses minds that the " faithful & discreet slave " is the boss , god, main enchilada , the one through whom rank and file witnesses must answer to in order for jehovah to approve them.

so strap your seat belts on: this should be interesting.. under the subheading " cherish our place- how ?

nugget

It is articles like these that make me so mad now. Once your eyes are open to the manipulation it does grate on your nerves. But until recently I would have seen this advice as reasonable and loving. I would think this is for my own protection because apostates are so smart they can cause me to question my faith. This seems so ridiculous now after all if something is true nothing anyone says to the contrary will change it.

This reminds me of the analogy of the spring the GB uses to describe how to give youths their freedom and greater responsibility. The idea is if you try to keep a spring under tension in your hand you will eventually have to let it go and it will spring out of control. However if you open your hand slowly the spring stays in place. The congregation is a spring under pressure there is no evidence that the society thinks the congregation will ever be grown up enough to make their own decisions so no wonder so many rebel. Doesn't an unreasonable parent often say I'm doing this because I love you, or do this because I tell you to?

As an aside does anyone remember the talk "Responsible Childbearing in this time of the end" I know a lot of couples who married the same time as my husband and I who put off having children because of that talk. Funnily enough we all started our families approx 12 years later. So perhaps it takes that long for the body to deprocess a GB instruction. Come to think of it I wouldn't be surprised if we were due for another talk like this soon.

7

Thinking of taking some classes

by EmptyInside in

i'm still trying to figure things out here.

but,i do have a question for those that started college many years after high school.

how did you make the transition?

nugget

In the UK we have the Open University which allows you to study at home but also gives you interaction with other students from your area through tutorials, online community and study days. I don't know if you have anything similar where you are. The benefit of this is there are a wide variety of courses and levels available and you can fit the study in when it suits you. I'm currently doing a degree in Psychology it's challenging but lots of fun and you meet some really interesting people.

If you need the discipline of the classroom and regular times then adult education courses run through local colleges can be so much fun and you don't have to do something academic if you don't want to. The only downside is that alot of courses start in Sept and October and you may have missed out. Its also a good way to break back into education before taking the plunge.

Think about what really interests you and pursue it you may find it gives you a new direction and focus in your life.

I wish you luck.

16

What has happened in the last 10 years since i left? Scandals? Doctrine changes?

by Aussie Oz in

i have been out since 1998 and have rarely seen another jw since.

i didn't leave because i found anything wrong, i just didn't want to live the life anymore.

i still defended the witnesses at times.

nugget

Hi, I was a faithful member of the congregation for 40 years. It was only when I actually started taking family study night seriously and actually looked deeply at what I was being taught that I realised that things were not as they seemed. I was so cross with myself that I hadn't previously questioned anything, I didn't even know how many members of the governing body there were.

I read crisis of conscience with an open mind and the biggest surprise was that the GB spent all their time on administrative details such as what was a disfellowshipping matter and did less study than I do. I was also shocked that because of a voting system that required a three quarter majority alot of rubbish decisions stayed as disfellowshipping sins even when most people on the body could see that they were wrong. All I could think of was that families were shunning people based on who turned up to vote on any given day. This was what jolted me out of my complacency.

In the organisation the GB has an air of mystery about it. I once thought they were benevolent old men who spent their days prayerfully studying the Bible, people who cared about the flock. I now know that they are biggoted old men vying for political prominance, despotic and uncaring of the flock. those who are not busy bullying others lack the backbone to stand up to the others. It is no wonder that some bodies of elders display similar qualities, they are reflecting what is the spirit of the organisation.

Perhaps ask your children to do study on the GB, how many members? how old are they? What do they do? Why are some so young? Ask them to look into the organisation they plan to dedicate their lives to. After all the society advises us to take prayerful consideration of all things.