Atlantis:
Just as Sulla pointed out, the words "lack of Christianity" was directed at the WTS for their poor handling of the 1975 deceit.
Wonderment
JoinedPosts by Wonderment
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96
The New World Translation Quote from an Elder
by howdidtihappen inyou've probably heard this before, but at a meeting last night the elder called the nwt the "rolls royce" of bibles.
i'm new to the jw bs (and as soon as i can break away, will do so.
) but do they also believe they have a superior bible to anyone elses outside the religion?
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115
Frederick Franz, "Bible Scholar"
by Quendi inas some of you know by now, i spent sunday, 7 august, renewing ties with a dear friend.
we're both disfellowshipped, the difference between us being he is seeking reinstatement and i am not.
we got into some very spirited discussions on different bible topics and one of them was the value of the new world translation itself.
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Wonderment
Outlaw:
I mentioned that Fred Franz spoke Spanish as well as some other languages which he learned on his own. You missed the point. Fred had no Ph.D to account for, so we can't rely on him producing formal training evidence. I can just mention some things that could point to him as having the competence to learn new languages, and presumably, biblical languages, which he would reasonably be interested in, even more so than Spanish or Portuguese. I reasoned that if he was able to dominate Spanish extremely well, my primary language, (I heard him speak the language several times), it is not unreasonable to think that he would do no less with Greek or Hebrew. Ray confirmed this.
You mentioned the Scotland Court Trial. Greek was not the issue there. Hebrew was. As I have indicated in other threads, some in the Evangelical community have distorted the trial statements, to the point that many NWT haters fondly and wrongly quote the infamous Court case. It should be noted that Fred was never asked to translate Gen 2:4 from Hebrew to English as is the custom, the court examiner asked him if he could translate Gen 2:4 from English to Hebrew, an unusual request, more so in that court setting. And Fred Franz answered that ‘he would not attempt to do that.’ That's it! He never said he couldn't do it, but that ‘he would not attempt to do that.’ Fred knew the difference between translating from Hebrew to English and viceversa. All bible translators make copious use of bible helps when doing bible translation, they do not engage casually in that work, much less to play a court examiner's game of dubious tactics.
I have responded to your statements not to convince you, but I do so with the hope that some in the board would appreciate this information. It is very possible that there are some in the board who welcome some of these details.
Billen76: "Rolf Furuli is Magister in semitic languages (not koiné) at Oslo Uni. He is also a practizing Jehovahs Witness! (biased)"
Rolf Furuli has also studied Greek and Latin as well. You say that Furuli by being a JW is biased. Does that mean that we should ignore his knowledgeable opinion because of him being a Witness? If we were to use your argument, then it would mean that a Baptist cannot quote a Baptist scholar without running the risk of bias. Does that make sense to anyone?
James Moffatt and others: "A real [bible] translation is in the main an interpretation."
Thus, a Catholic version reflects a Catholic orientation.
A Presbyterian version will reflect a Presbyterian persuasion.
A JW version will convey their theological message. And so on...
What is the difference? The Catholics and Protestants have their degrees, and the JWs don't. Jesus' disciples were not required to go to formal training to communicate the truth. Were they? Were they rejected by the Lord for their lack of formal training?
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26
Compilation of the bible and the NWT translation source.
by trailerfitter inhi,, i have a curious question about when the bible was actually compiled.
from what i understand it was actually compiled under emperor constantines request in the 4th century ad.
this was the nicene creed.. i also am aware that there quite a few books that were considered for inclusion but weren't.
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26
Compilation of the bible and the NWT translation source.
by trailerfitter inhi,, i have a curious question about when the bible was actually compiled.
from what i understand it was actually compiled under emperor constantines request in the 4th century ad.
this was the nicene creed.. i also am aware that there quite a few books that were considered for inclusion but weren't.
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Wonderment
Black Sheep:
Dr. Bruce Metzger: "On the whole, one gains a tolerably good impression of the scholarly equipment of the translators. Some of the translations...are simply indefensible [...]"
Samuel Haas: "While this work indicates a great deal of effort and thought as well as considerable scholarship, it is to be regretted that religious bias was allowed to colour many passages." (Journal of Biblical Literature, December 1955, p. 283)
Jason BeDuhn (Ph.D) uses the Kingdom Interlinear when he teaches Greek to his students. He has stated that "the Kingdom Interlinear is the best NT interlinear available."
Thomas N. Winter: "The translation by the anonymous committee is thoroughly up to date and consistently accurate. (Professor of Greek at the University of Nebraska) Winter has also used the KIT in his classes with his students.
Edgar Foster: The NWT is a fine translation. In my mind, it is the translation _par excellence_." (Classics Major, Lenoir-Rhyne College)
Edgar J. Goodspeed: "Strange such good scholars as your people evidently are should not have noticed that apate Mt. 13:22 etc., is now known to mean 'pleasure.'" (Note: Translators offer divergent views with the translation of apate.) Goodspeed is a recognized scholar of NT Greek.
S. Maclean Gilmore: "The New Testament edition was made by a committee...that possessed an unusual competence in Greek." (Andover Newton Quarterly, September 1966, Vol 7, #1 page 25, 26)
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115
Frederick Franz, "Bible Scholar"
by Quendi inas some of you know by now, i spent sunday, 7 august, renewing ties with a dear friend.
we're both disfellowshipped, the difference between us being he is seeking reinstatement and i am not.
we got into some very spirited discussions on different bible topics and one of them was the value of the new world translation itself.
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Wonderment
Outlaw: I have stated before there is no concrete evidence that Fred Franz had a domain of biblical languages. I did state there is incidental or cimcumstancial evidence that Fred Franz had sufficient knowledge of biblical languages to tackle bible translation.
Besides the two years of Greek he took at Cincinnatti University, we have his own testimony and that of Ray, his nephew, that Fred was self-taught in those languages other than English. Ray said he continued his studies in private. English is a secondary language for me, because I was not brought up listening to English at home. My primary language, Spanish, is one of those I heard Fred use various times, which he learned on his own. The man spoke the language with accuracy, and fluently. At one time while I was in Chicago, Fred gave a speech in two other languages, which I was not familiar with. I was curious about his language ability, so I queried a few brothers who spoke those languages about Fred's ability with them. They assured me it was good. He had no Ph.D to show, but he had what it took to learn them well.
Ray Franz was the principal translator of the Kingdom Interlinear, according to Ray Franz. No grease monkey could produce such quality translation without deep knowledge of Greek. Yes, I know some who criticize the KIT, such as Mantey, but Mantey focused on "theological perversions" of the NWT and KIT. It is so strange that Mantey having a command of Greek would mostly focus on controversial theological passages, instead of other grammatical issues which are easier to prove. With theology, you could go both ways, as is reflected by various Greek experts offering different renderings of such passages.
In grammar, Mantey could have made a pretzel of Fred Franz, but he didn't do that. Most of his objections were "theological." I mentioned before in another thread, that when Walter Martin before Mantey ridiculed "the only person who could read Greek in the Watchtower" (Gangas), Mantey asked Martin, "Isn't he Greek?" Martin responded, Yes! Then Martin proceeded to poke fun of Gangas' grammar of John 1:1 (what is the subject?) to confirm his perception of Gangas "ineptness." Thus, both Mantey and Martin confirmed that Gangas spoke Greek.
Jason BeDuhn (Ph.D) uses the Kingdom Interlinear when he teaches Greek to his students. He has stated that "the Kingdom Interlinear is the best NT interlinear available."
Thomas N. Winter: “ The translation by the anonymous committee is thoroughly up to date and consistently accurate . (Professor of Greek at the University of Nebraska) Winter has also used the KIT in his classes with his students.
Edgar Foster: The NWT is a fine translation. In my mind, it is the translation _par excellence_." (Classics Major, Lenoir-Rhyne College)
Edgar J. Goodspeed: "Strange such good scholars as your people evidently are should not have noticed that apate Mt. 13:22 etc., is now known to mean 'pleasure.'" (Note: Translators do not agree with the translation of apate.) Goodspeed is a recognized scholar of NT Greek.
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96
The New World Translation Quote from an Elder
by howdidtihappen inyou've probably heard this before, but at a meeting last night the elder called the nwt the "rolls royce" of bibles.
i'm new to the jw bs (and as soon as i can break away, will do so.
) but do they also believe they have a superior bible to anyone elses outside the religion?
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Wonderment
Atlantis:
I am keenly aware that the NWT does show bias in their version in many places. I have never said the opposite. What I have stated throughout this site is that ALL bible versions show their bias somehow. The NWT is no exception. The info you provided breaks no news. I repeat: All Bible translations reflect the bias of their translators, including the New Word Translation. I have no problem with that.
Nevertheless, it is my belief that most bible versions are useful for deep bible study, including the NWT. I go further, the NWT Reference Bible is one of the best Study Bibles anywhere. It is with this statement that apparently some in in this board have a problem with, i.e. recognizing the value, the contribution the NWT has made in the field.
Most on this board harbor great resentment toward the WTS for their lack of Christianity when it comes to ex-members. I am too a victim, as you probably are. Because of this deep-rooted resentment, many have come to despise anything that has to do with this bible Society, to the point, that it has clouded their judgment in regards to the NWT. Their feeling seems to be... the WTS is evil, the NWT must be trash as well.
You do not see me defending the WTS in many subjects related to them, because I can not conciensciously do so with some exceptions. However, I do not see the same problem with the NWT. Yes, it is stilted toward their organization, but it has so much good to offer, not only to JWs, but to others as well, to stand on its own merits.
It is my belief that some ex-JWs who ALWAYS defend mainstream translations, and demonize the NWT, are lacking fair judgment. I am not advocating for a "perfect" and "holier than thou" NWT, but calling for fairness and recognition of the version as a valuable contribution to the community. Mainstream bible versions are attractive to own, but have their own tendentious issues to deal with. They too are made by imperfect humans as well. I do value their contributions in a big way.
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26
Compilation of the bible and the NWT translation source.
by trailerfitter inhi,, i have a curious question about when the bible was actually compiled.
from what i understand it was actually compiled under emperor constantines request in the 4th century ad.
this was the nicene creed.. i also am aware that there quite a few books that were considered for inclusion but weren't.
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Wonderment
Doug Mason: I don't think it is wise to mention Mantey, given the fact that he wrote to the WTS and demanded a written apology for the way they had misused his work. You will see his letter in "The Scholastic Dishonesty of the Watchtower", Michael Buskirk, CARIS
I am not the WT, so I think I have more leeway than them in this forum. Secondly, Mantey should be taken to task just as we do with the WTS. Mantey is a human, with his own preconceptions and biases. He too twisted some facts, or ignored telling the public the full facts of the matter. "Scholastic dishonesty" goes both ways.
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115
Frederick Franz, "Bible Scholar"
by Quendi inas some of you know by now, i spent sunday, 7 august, renewing ties with a dear friend.
we're both disfellowshipped, the difference between us being he is seeking reinstatement and i am not.
we got into some very spirited discussions on different bible topics and one of them was the value of the new world translation itself.
-
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Wonderment
Terry:
I stand corrected. Fred Franz, quoted Rutherford as saying regarding his own predictions: "I know I made an ass of myself." Cited by Raymond Franz in Crisis of Conscience, p. 137. Talking to a large audience in Australia in 1975, Fred related the same remark, but the words were Rutherfords. Thanks!
On a diferent note, I love The Message as much as you do. However, the NWT and The Message are two radically different versions of the Bible with different goals. Both are useful! And ALL translations should be checked against the Hebrew and Greek Text for accuracy.
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26
Compilation of the bible and the NWT translation source.
by trailerfitter inhi,, i have a curious question about when the bible was actually compiled.
from what i understand it was actually compiled under emperor constantines request in the 4th century ad.
this was the nicene creed.. i also am aware that there quite a few books that were considered for inclusion but weren't.
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Wonderment
Black Sheep:
At least two members of the NWT Committee had some knowledge of Greek, Gangas and Franz. Though some may laugh at their credentials, it should be mentioned, that some scholars have expressed admiration for the NWT scholarly equipment. How could that be if they were not able to translate a restaurant menu? Gangas could easily do that. He was Greek, and spoke Greek and Spanish, besides English.
Something that is often overlooked, is the fact that the WTS is international in its scope. The WTS produces literature in hundreds of languages. "The Watch Tower Society has produced literature in 537 languages and calls on the services of more than 2,500 volunteers to assist with translation worldwide. In the early 1980's, a team of volunteers developed the world's first multilanguage electronic phototypesetting system [MEPS], which currently has the capacity to process material in 659 languages, using 29 alphabets and character sets." ( http://www.jw-media.org/aboutjw/article43.htm )
One poster here mentioned recently that he knew of someone in Greece who was equally at home with modern and biblical Greek, and whom has been assisting the WTS in the translation department for decades. There may be others. Should we allow then, to be misguided by the Walter Martins, Robert Bowmans, the Manteys and a host of others who live to destroy, and not to build?
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96
The New World Translation Quote from an Elder
by howdidtihappen inyou've probably heard this before, but at a meeting last night the elder called the nwt the "rolls royce" of bibles.
i'm new to the jw bs (and as soon as i can break away, will do so.
) but do they also believe they have a superior bible to anyone elses outside the religion?
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Wonderment
Ibidem, (of previous post where Robert Young was mentioned in Mantey's letter as support of the traditional reading of John 1:1).
Young's Concise Critical Bible Commentary was published after his printed translation, which explains how the last part of John 1:1 should be understood:
"AND THE WORD WAS GOD,] more lit. ‘and a God (i.e. a Divine Being) was the Word.’"
Somehow, Mantey forgot to mention this fact, or chose not to criticize Young because of Young's well-known expertise in many ancient languages.