Posts by Wonderment

32

Undeclared changes to the 2013 NWT

by Doug Mason in

in the following from the 2013 edition of the nwt, the watchtower society indicates that when it released its initial 1950 edition, it considered the greek text provided by westcott and hort as its master text.

as a result of these additional masters, the wts made some undeclared changes to the 2013 nwt.

it does not list these changes or give any explanations.. greek text: in the late 19th century, scholars b. f. westcott and f.j.a.

Wonderment

careful: "What does "perish from the way" mean? If they were looking to make the revision more intelligible, they missed something here!"

The problem here is that the Hebrew text itself is not explicit. It literally says:

"kiss Son lest he-is-angry and-you-perish way." The KJV and the NWT add "[from]" -- following suggestions from ancient versions as shown by Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible:

"and ye perish from the way; the Syriac version renders it ‘from his way’, the Son's way; and the Septuagint and Vulgate Latin versions ‘from the righteous way’; and the Arabic version ‘from the way of righteousness’; or ‘as to the way’, as others (m), the good way; all to one sense; meaning that way of righteousness, salvation and eternal life by Jesus Christ, which being missed by persons, they are eternally lost and undone: some render it ‘because of the way’ (n); that is, because of their sinful course of life; for the way of the ungodly shall perish itself, and therefore they that pursue it shall perish also: others render it ‘in the way’ (o); and then the sense is, lest they perish in the midst of their course of sin, in their own evil way, they: have chosen and delighted in, or, to use the words of Christ, ‘die in their sins’, John 8:21, and everlastingly perish; for this perishing is to be understood not of corporeal death, in which sense righteous men perish, but of everlasting destruction: or the word which is rendered ‘from the way’ may be translated ‘suddenly’ (p), ‘immediately’, or ‘straightway’, and our English word ‘directly’ is almost the same; and so may design the swift and sudden destruction of such persons who provoke the Son to wrath and anger; which sense is confirmed by what follows."

Pulpit Commentary simply says:

"‘And ye perish from the way; or, as to the way.’ To anger the Son is to bring destruction on our ‘way,’ or course in life."

72

Did you have a bad reaction to flu shot?

by compound complex in

jw
friends

.

thanks for sharing.. coco.

Wonderment

Something to consider:

http://www.theorganicprepper.ca/five-reasons-why-ill-never-get-a-flu-shot-01122013

44

New Generation Understanding

by momzcrazy in

hello everyone, i am new here and newly freed from the snare of wtbs.

my sister, also newly freed, said our mom told her at the annual meeting there was a new "understanding" on the generation confusion.

it is now the annointed that will not pass away.. has anyone else heard this?

Wonderment

WT leaders have no clue how to deal with embarrassing blunders. It takes "humility" to acknowledge one made a mistake. This is what happens when the "reputation" of a group of people is placed above the standards of truth.

63

Why does the Watchtower leadership slap its own defenders in the face?

by slimboyfat in

take the case of rolf furuli.

i don't think there has been a specific thread on the hebrew verbs u-turn in the nwt, and how the society has responded to the work of perhaps their brightest and ablest defender in their history.

so here goes.. rolf furuli has defended jws on multiple fronts in many different settings, on issues ranging from chronology, mental health, doctrines, bible translation and the blood issue.

Wonderment

"What a shameful article [http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2009814] from the so-called Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. Is there any other "Bible" society in existence that actively discourages people from learning Bible languages? Truly astonishing."

Good question Slim!

In tone with this, the WT Society wrote some time ago that those who volunteered for translation work of the NWT into other languages didn't need to know the original languages. It is clear from this statement that the Society does not want its members engaging in learning the biblical languages. They want their followers to think that only they have the keys to explaining biblical truths, very much like the Catholic clergymen of the 15 through the 17th century were insisting in preaching in Latin to discourage new ongoing attempts into biblical translation work of other advancing languages.

Furthermore, the WTS want its Bible translation teams to focus on the English text of the NWT as the main base for translation instead of having them getting involved in the many language subtleties encountered in this type of work, and exposing them to the danger of worldly biblical criticisms. So their apparent attitude is this:

We need new volunteers with experience in the translation field, willing to tackle Bible translation into other languages. If you already know Hebrew or Greek, great, but if you don't, that's fine also. We can still use you. We'll equip you with the necessary tools to get the job done. As for the rest of you uneducated congregation publishers, forget it, no need to learn biblical languages. We got all your spiritual bases covered by our wonderful publications published by the hard-working "faithful and discreet slave." Can't get better than that! In fact, you don't need to pray to Jesus at all as the way to God, you got "mother" right here to mediate between you and God! Not only that, you can set the "spirit" of God aside, because we, your leaders and faithful stewards, will do all the dirty work for you. We are truly blessed!

63

Why does the Watchtower leadership slap its own defenders in the face?

by slimboyfat in

take the case of rolf furuli.

i don't think there has been a specific thread on the hebrew verbs u-turn in the nwt, and how the society has responded to the work of perhaps their brightest and ablest defender in their history.

so here goes.. rolf furuli has defended jws on multiple fronts in many different settings, on issues ranging from chronology, mental health, doctrines, bible translation and the blood issue.

Wonderment

Vidqun: "So, I don't doubt the fact that Franz was quite knowledgeable and had a good grasp of languages. But the Society leaned heavily on his expertise since N. H. Knorr. After his death in the nineties, things went downhill fast. If they would only have encouraged secular study, they might have been able to groom a successor or a group of successors to continue the Franz tradition. Now their theology is driven by seven simpletons that have no clue."

I could not have said it better!

Yet, they state here (http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2009814):

"In the meantime, the old adage may prove true, A little knowledge is a dangerous thing."

If they believed this, why does the WT Corporation pick most of their Governing Body members with zero knowledge of biblical languages?

63

Why does the Watchtower leadership slap its own defenders in the face?

by slimboyfat in

take the case of rolf furuli.

i don't think there has been a specific thread on the hebrew verbs u-turn in the nwt, and how the society has responded to the work of perhaps their brightest and ablest defender in their history.

so here goes.. rolf furuli has defended jws on multiple fronts in many different settings, on issues ranging from chronology, mental health, doctrines, bible translation and the blood issue.

Wonderment

slimboyfat:

Not sure if this helps about your inquiry of Fre Franz and his Jewish friend:

Barbara Anderson, a former member of JWs who worked for ten years at the WT Brooklyn Headquarters, and became a Writing Staff member, recalls that Fred Franz had a very close friend with a heavy Jewish accent, Barry Horowitz, who was knowledgeable in the Hebrew language. Anderson wrote: “This man was the ‘expert’ Franz went to when he needed help to explain, translate, or interpret the Hebrew language for many of the complicated interpretive books which Franz, the ‘oracle,’ wrote for the organization.” (26 December 2008)

Also, Vidqun wrote to you:

"A while back I read a piece by Barbara of Silent Lambs fame, reporting that she had asked a Jewish colleague (involved with the Society’s translation work in Israel) whether Franz’s Hebrew was up to standard. The woman confirmed that his Hebrew was accurate, and that she had high praise for the man."

This account is very similar to the one statement of Ray Franz. So I wonder if Vidqun's account is referring to the same incident." Vidqun, are you listening? Could you answer this one for us?

"While working on the Watch Tower’s Bible dictionary Aid to Bible Understanding, on more than one occasion I had to seek out his assistance [Fred's] with reference to Hebrew renderings. He was always able to supply the needed information. In 1971, on a trip to Israel, we visited the Watch Tower’s branch office located in Haifa. A member of the staff there, Dalia Erez, a young Jewish woman, native to the country, did Hebrew translation of the organization’s publications. She spent part of one day discussing with Fred Franz certain translation problems she was experiencing and received his assistance and recommendations. She clearly found his knowledge of Hebrew solid."

9

Dating a Religious Person - Thoughts?

by Garrett in

hello my dear friends :).

i am here once again because you guys are pretty much the most awesome peeps ever.. i have a new dilemma that i'd like your opinions on.

as most of you know, i'm an agnostic.

Wonderment

Garrett: "Can a relationship work out with one being religious and the other not?"

Yes. It depends of course whether each one will respect the other. Without respect, no! I repeat what FayeDunaway wisely stated: "A lot of it is your attitude. If you can respect her beliefs and not belittle them, and if she respects that you don't think her religion has all the answers, this could work."

In line with the above, both would have to consider whether any of you have extreme tendencies. For example, my wife is a devout Seventh Day Adventist. Thus, her Saturday observance (from sunset to sunset) is kind of sacred. But somehow, she is ready for her Sabbath even before sunset -- does not want to engage in any work long before or after the Sabbath is over. When Sunday comes she is still kind of celebrating her Sabbath. In other words, she needs part of three days to overcome her observance. That alone can affect our plans for the weekend.

Thus, as a husband who does not observe the Sabbath, you can see how an extreme attitude of the believer can affect the relationship between both parties. Also, she has at times brought out my past JW faith out of nowhere, and how it bears into my present life in a negative way. Perhaps she is right. All religious and non-religious differences become greater when the pair live together. In all, we both are making honest efforts to accommodate the needs of each other. Regardless, I love her very much.

The point is that if you are not sure, keep alert for any red flags, and don't ignore them. Just three days ago in the dentist office, I met this lady who is now married for the second time. She admitted dating online just once in between with someone else she liked very much, but did not commit to him due to him becoming very angry, almost violent, for something she considered minor. His behavior scared her. It was the red flag for her to exit the relationship.

So Garrett, stay alert to her responses as you come up with various subjects. The problem is not so much whether she agrees with you at times, but how she handles your opinions and your dislikes when they do happen. Again, it comes down to respecting each other.

63

Why does the Watchtower leadership slap its own defenders in the face?

by slimboyfat in

take the case of rolf furuli.

i don't think there has been a specific thread on the hebrew verbs u-turn in the nwt, and how the society has responded to the work of perhaps their brightest and ablest defender in their history.

so here goes.. rolf furuli has defended jws on multiple fronts in many different settings, on issues ranging from chronology, mental health, doctrines, bible translation and the blood issue.

Wonderment

Yes, I agree the WT did a complete turnaround in its revision of the NWT, not only with the Hebrew Verbal System, but in many other areas as well, including their slavish approach to using one English word for each Greek one for the earlier editions. Many of us were quite surprised that the NWT Committee broke many of their previously stated positions.

We can only wish they do the same with the way they deal with dissenters.

63

Why does the Watchtower leadership slap its own defenders in the face?

by slimboyfat in

take the case of rolf furuli.

i don't think there has been a specific thread on the hebrew verbs u-turn in the nwt, and how the society has responded to the work of perhaps their brightest and ablest defender in their history.

so here goes.. rolf furuli has defended jws on multiple fronts in many different settings, on issues ranging from chronology, mental health, doctrines, bible translation and the blood issue.

Wonderment

slimboyfat: "But again, whether Franz/Furuli are right or wrong about the waw-consecutive was not really my point. They could be right about that issue and my point still stands. The original NWT and Furuli argued that the woodennes of the NWT was justified on the grounds of accuracy and faithfulness to the Hebrew. The revised NWT takes the opposite view that readability is paramount."

I think I understood correctly from the beginning. It was likely me who gave another impression. I did not mean to contradict you or give the impression that I did. My English writing skills are definitely not as good as some of the posters here. My intention was perhaps to add a thought to that previously stated.

63

Why does the Watchtower leadership slap its own defenders in the face?

by slimboyfat in

take the case of rolf furuli.

i don't think there has been a specific thread on the hebrew verbs u-turn in the nwt, and how the society has responded to the work of perhaps their brightest and ablest defender in their history.

so here goes.. rolf furuli has defended jws on multiple fronts in many different settings, on issues ranging from chronology, mental health, doctrines, bible translation and the blood issue.

Wonderment

slimboyfat:

It's hard to ascertain whether the NWT dropped the previous Hebrew Verbal approach due to the impossibility of reconciling variant positions on the matter, or whether it was solely for readability reasons.

Vidqun presented an interesting post where he seems to indicate that the Furuli-Franz approach was wrong. I am not so sure. Is there someone else recently besides "Kummerow 2007 and Cook 2010" (I am aware of earlier works where scholars expressed the matter was still ‘uncertain’) having a different view. The point is, has this matter been settled recently without question? I wonder if time can clear this enigma.