BluesBrother:
I recall hearing an audio from one of Ray Franz's associates , a Chris Sanches who had been involved in the original translation of The NWT into Spanish. He maintained that the [Foreword] contained "a lie", when it said this Bible has been translated from the original languages. In fact it was taken from the English NWT of the time.
Wonderment
JoinedPosts by Wonderment
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New World Translation - Variants
by Wonderment innew world translation - variantstentative translations below.
you native language experts can probably do better than me.
if so, help yourself.. matthew 24.3, english edition: “what will be the sign of... the conclusion of the system of things?”french, 1987: “quel sera le signe de… la conclusion du système de choses” (...the system of things)french revised: “quel sera le signe de… la période finale du monde?” (…the final period of the world)german revised: “und den abschluss des weltsystems erkennen?” (the conclusion of the world system)spanish revised: “qué señal habrá... de la conclusión del sistema?” (…conclusion of the system)matthew 24.45, "the faithful and discreet slave":italian revised: “lo schiavo fedele e saggio” = “the faithful and wise slave”portuguese revised: “o escravo fiel e prudente” = “the faithful and prudent slave”spanish revised, “el esclavo fiel y prudente” = “the faithful and prudent slave”matthew 25.46,(english edition), “cutting-off” contrasted with “everlasting life” in the same verse.
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Wonderment
Also, I have compared the Spanish WT NT in numerous places with both the English and the Greek Text, and I find that overall they followed the English version faithfully as they claimed. However, occasionally, they chose to deviate from the English version in favor of the Greek Text reading. In all, I believe Chris Sanchez did not give all the details. This does not necessarily mean that he lied, but it is possible that some unnamed editor went over the translated New Testament and made some changes to it. This is something they have also claimed, by the way.
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New World Translation - Variants
by Wonderment innew world translation - variantstentative translations below.
you native language experts can probably do better than me.
if so, help yourself.. matthew 24.3, english edition: “what will be the sign of... the conclusion of the system of things?”french, 1987: “quel sera le signe de… la conclusion du système de choses” (...the system of things)french revised: “quel sera le signe de… la période finale du monde?” (…the final period of the world)german revised: “und den abschluss des weltsystems erkennen?” (the conclusion of the world system)spanish revised: “qué señal habrá... de la conclusión del sistema?” (…conclusion of the system)matthew 24.45, "the faithful and discreet slave":italian revised: “lo schiavo fedele e saggio” = “the faithful and wise slave”portuguese revised: “o escravo fiel e prudente” = “the faithful and prudent slave”spanish revised, “el esclavo fiel y prudente” = “the faithful and prudent slave”matthew 25.46,(english edition), “cutting-off” contrasted with “everlasting life” in the same verse.
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Wonderment
slimboyfat: I wonder if the other languages have followed (or preceded) English in getting rid of “impaled” and restoring “elders” instead of “older men”. Have they eliminated “mentally diseased” as well?
Mark 15.13, 1951 Edition, “Impale him!” > (Footnote: “Or, Fasten(ed) on a stake or pole.”)
2013 Edition: “To the stake with him!”
Modern Greek, 1993 & 2018: “Κρέμασέ τον στο ξύλο!” = “Hang him on the wood”French, 1987: “Attache-le sur un poteau!” = “Fix [attach] him to a post”
French, 2018: “Au poteau!” = “To the pole [post]!”
German, 1986 & 2018: “An den Pfahl mit ihm!” = “To the stake with him!”
Italian, 1987 & 2017: “Al palo!” = “To the pole!”
Portuguese, 1986 & 2015: “Para a estaca com ele!” = “To the stake with him!”
Spanish, 1963 & 2019: “¡Al madero con él!” = “To the stake with him!”
1 Timothy 6.4, NWT 1951: “mentally diseased.” 2013 Edition: “obsessed.”
French, 2018: “passion maladive” = “unhealthy passion”
German, 1986: “geistig krank” = “mentally ill [deseased]”
German 2018: “besessen” = “obsessed”
Modern Greek, 1997: “ασθενεί διανοητικά” = “mentally ill [deseased]”
Modern Greek 2017: “εμμονή” = “obsessed”
Italian, 1987: “mentalmente malato” = “mentally ill”
Italian, 2017: “ossessionato” = “obsessed”
Portuguese, 1986: “mania” = “mania [craze, habit]”
Portuguese 2015: “obcecado” = “obsessed”
Spanish, 1963: “mentalmente enfermo” = “mentally diseased”
Spanish, 2019: “obsesionado” = “obsessed”Acts 15.4, NWT 1951: “the older men [Greek, presbytéron].” 2013 Edition: “the elders.”
French, 1987 & 2018: “et les anciens” = “and the elders”
German, 1986: “und den älteren Männern” = “an the older men”
German, 2018: “und den Ältesten” = “and the elders”
Greek, 1997 & 2017: “και οι πρεσβύτεροι” = “and the elders”
Italian, 1987 & 2017: “gli anziani” = “the elders”
Portuguese, 1986 & 2015: “anciãos” = “the elders”
Spanish, 1963: “los hombres de mayor edad” = “the older men”
Spanish, 2019: “los ancianos” = “the elders” -
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Don't count on witnessing Watchtower's demise anytime soon.
by Roger Kirkpatrick inthe fact that there are pomi ex-jws who have been disfellowshiped or inactive for years who still live in constant fear of armageddon indicates that watchtower will manage to exist in one way or another for years, if not decades, to come.
watchtower, like all other religious cults, operate on the premise that "you can fool some of the people all of the time...and that's enough!
".
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Wonderment
ScenicViewer:
The name of the book by Robert H. Countess: The Jehovah's Witnesses' New Testament: A Critical Analysis of the New World Translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures (2nd. ed. 1987, Presbyterian and Reformed Publishing Co.). This book is critical of the NWT. The discussion of the divine name is a chapter of the book or so.
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New World Translation - Variants
by Wonderment innew world translation - variantstentative translations below.
you native language experts can probably do better than me.
if so, help yourself.. matthew 24.3, english edition: “what will be the sign of... the conclusion of the system of things?”french, 1987: “quel sera le signe de… la conclusion du système de choses” (...the system of things)french revised: “quel sera le signe de… la période finale du monde?” (…the final period of the world)german revised: “und den abschluss des weltsystems erkennen?” (the conclusion of the world system)spanish revised: “qué señal habrá... de la conclusión del sistema?” (…conclusion of the system)matthew 24.45, "the faithful and discreet slave":italian revised: “lo schiavo fedele e saggio” = “the faithful and wise slave”portuguese revised: “o escravo fiel e prudente” = “the faithful and prudent slave”spanish revised, “el esclavo fiel y prudente” = “the faithful and prudent slave”matthew 25.46,(english edition), “cutting-off” contrasted with “everlasting life” in the same verse.
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Wonderment
New World Translation - Variants
Tentative translations below. You native language experts can probably do better than me. If so, help yourself.
Matthew 24.3,
English Edition: “what will be the sign of... the conclusion of the system of things?”
French, 1987: “quel sera le signe de… la conclusion du système de choses” (...the system of things)
French Revised: “quel sera le signe de… la période finale du monde?” (…the final period of the world)
German Revised: “und den Abschluss des Weltsystems erkennen?” (the conclusion of the world system)
Spanish Revised: “qué señal habrá... de la conclusión del sistema?” (…conclusion of the system)
Matthew 24.45, "the faithful and discreet slave":
Italian Revised: “lo schiavo fedele e saggio” = “the faithful and wise slave”
Portuguese Revised: “o escravo fiel e prudente” = “the faithful and prudent slave”
Spanish Revised, “el esclavo fiel y prudente” = “the faithful and prudent slave”
Matthew 25.46,
(English Edition), “cutting-off” contrasted with “everlasting life” in the same verse.
(French Revised): “la mort éternelle” = “eternal death”
(Spanish Revised): “destrucción eterna” = “eternal destruction”
John 1.1,
French, 1987: “et la Parole était dieu” = “and the Word was god”
French, Revised: “et la Parole était un dieu” = “and the Word was a god”
Portuguese, 1986: “e a Palavra era [um] deus” = “and the Word was a god” (Brackets theirs.)
Portuguese Revised: “e a Palavra era um deus” = “and the Word was a god”
John 8.58, (I am: KJV; NIV, etc. NWT: "I have been")
French, 1987: “Avant qu'Abraham soit venu à l'existence, j´étais” (...I was)
French Revised: “avant qu’Abraham vienne à l’existence, j’ai été” (... I was, or … I,ve been, I have been)
Italian, 1967: “io sono stato” = “I have been”
Italian, 1987: “Prima che Abraamo venisse all'esistenza, io ero” (… I was, I have been)
Italian, 2017: “prima che Abraamo nascesse, io c’ero” = “I was, I was there”
Portuguese Revised: “Antes de Abraão vir à existência, eu já existia” (… I already existed)
Spanish Revised: “antes de que Abrahán naciera, yo ya existía” (… I already existed)
Revelation 3.14,
English Edition: “the beginning of the creation by God”
French Revised: “le commencement de la création de Dieu” = “the beginning of the creation of God”
German Revised: “der Anfang der Schöpfung Gottes” = “the beginning of the creation of God”
Italian Revised: “il principio della creazione di Dio” = “the beginning of the creation of God”
Portuguese Revised: “o princípio da criação de Deus” = “the beginning of the creation of God”
Spanish Revised: “el principio de la creación de Dios” = “the beginning of the creation of God”
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69
Don't count on witnessing Watchtower's demise anytime soon.
by Roger Kirkpatrick inthe fact that there are pomi ex-jws who have been disfellowshiped or inactive for years who still live in constant fear of armageddon indicates that watchtower will manage to exist in one way or another for years, if not decades, to come.
watchtower, like all other religious cults, operate on the premise that "you can fool some of the people all of the time...and that's enough!
".
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Wonderment
Could it be that the WT has secretly diverted some of its finances to survive as plan B or C? I mean, were not a couple of WT missionaries caught trying to enter Italy a couple of years violating some laws? What about the rumor that the WT was heavily involved in Argentina investing in real estate business?
slimboyfat, Where can I send you the photo-copies of Robert Countess' book on the divine name?
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What would happen to your country if you could exchange your president for Trump?
by Wonderment inwhat if we could exchange one president from another country to yours?...
say trump for trudeau, trudeau for trump, trump in exchange for your respective european country, etc -- for a few years?
would you consider it a win or a loss for your country?.
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Wonderment
What if we could exchange one president from another country to yours?... say Trump for Trudeau, Trudeau for Trump, Trump in exchange for your respective European country, etc -- for a few years? Would you consider it a win or a loss for your country?
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Why do we see only brown-colored people in USA detention centers?
by Wonderment inwhy are for the most part brown-colored people held in detention centers?
where are the rest of illegal immigrants?i think the question is valid -- as one website noted: "the u.s. government does not maintain reliable demographics of who is in immigration detention..." (https://www.freedomforimmigrants.org/detention-statistics).
a canadian woman not too long ago said to me (spontaneously - i did not bring up the subject) the following words when she heard the live tv news broadcast, which dealt about the immigrants being held at dozens of detention centers in usa: "i am canadian, and i have been living here illegally for 29 years.
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Wonderment
Why are for the most part brown-colored people held in detention centers? Where are the rest of illegal immigrants?
I think the question is valid -- as one website noted: "The U.S. government does not maintain reliable demographics of who is in immigration detention..." (https://www.freedomforimmigrants.org/detention-statistics)
A Canadian woman not too long ago said to me (spontaneously - I did not bring up the subject) the following words when she heard the live TV news broadcast, which dealt about the immigrants being held at dozens of detention centers in USA: "I am Canadian, and I have been living here ILLEGALLY for 29 years. In all those years, not once, have I been asked to show documentation of my immigration status. I really feel sorry for those Mexicans and Central Americans who are getting a different treatment." (End of quote)
And then just this week, a government official suggested (because of recent political rhetorics) that the "Liberty" message of the Statue of Liberty poem has taken on the meaning of "liberty and justice" for Europeans, or something to that effect.
So my question is: Since United States are getting new immigrants every day by the thousands from all over the world (via air, cargo ships, or other, besides the border entrance), what happens to all those people who stay here illegally? Where do they go. Do they round them up? If so, why do we see mostly brown people from south of the border in those Detention Centers (BTW, 71% are private-for profit institutions)?For instance, what about those women who come here from Russia and Ukraine to give birth every day in USA (many overstay their visas)? Where do they put them? Does ICE goes after them? Where do they go? What am I missing here?
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Godlike ones vs. the godlike ones?
by I_love_Jeff innwt: psalm 8:5 * hebrew: 2:7: “you made him a little lower than angels.” if men are called "godlike ones", according to jehovah's witnesses, how, then, are they a little lower than the angels also called the "godlike ones"psalm 82:6 “i myself have said, ‘you are gods*, and all of you are sons of the most high.
*or, “godlike ones.” heb., ʼelo·him′; gr., the·oi′; syr., daʼ·la·hin; lat., di′i; t, “like angels.”****nowhere in the hebrew bible are human beings referred to the word "elohim".
"godlike" in hebrew is termed "כמו אלוהים"
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Wonderment
@ I_love_Jeff,
At Psalm 82.6, human judges are referred to as "gods (’ĕ·lō·hîm)." Psalm 82:7 according to THIS simile the gods mentioned in this chapter are IMMORTAL
I mentioned the HEBREW BIBLE not the New Testament. Human beings mentioned in the Hebrew Bible are not MADE INTO gods but ONLY AS REPRESENTATIVES.
Representatives VS created as gods are two different things thus Psalm 8:5 makes humans mere humans with godlike qualities NOT IMMORTAL like Psalm 82:7.At Psalm 82.6, human judges are referred to as "gods (’ĕ·lō·hîm)." Psalm 82:7 according to THIS simile the gods mentioned in this chapter are IMMORTAL
I think you meant these gods (human judges) are mortal. No?
I mentioned the HEBREW BIBLE not the New Testament. Human beings mentioned in the Hebrew Bible are not MADE INTO gods but ONLY AS REPRESENTATIVES.
Yes, but, Ex. 7.1 says, "See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh." (KJV) So, in a biblical sense God made Moses a god before Pharaoh. True, as a his representative, but nevertheless referenced as "a god."
I think you missed the whole point, which is:
In the Bible, besides Jehovah and Jesus named "gods" of some sort, other individuals were also called "gods." This indicates that the term "god in Scripture goes beyond being used as only the description of almighty God." Satan is called "the god of this world." Therefore, rather than taking issue of whether a god is true, false, or mortal, like Evangelicals are fond of doing, and restricting the sense of "god" to the Supreme God, as Evangelicals tend to do, the Bible goes further by adding a few nuances as you yourself noted.The interpretation of these can be debated, if you will.
Including this one at 1 Kings 18.27 where Elijah said that Ba'al was "a god [Heb. elohim; Greek: theós]." Thus, the Bible supports the view that there are many [so-called] "gods" and "lords" in the world, not only one. (1 Cor. 8.5) In the end, Paul tells us in the next verse, that there is but one true universal God. Can we agree to that?
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Godlike ones vs. the godlike ones?
by I_love_Jeff innwt: psalm 8:5 * hebrew: 2:7: “you made him a little lower than angels.” if men are called "godlike ones", according to jehovah's witnesses, how, then, are they a little lower than the angels also called the "godlike ones"psalm 82:6 “i myself have said, ‘you are gods*, and all of you are sons of the most high.
*or, “godlike ones.” heb., ʼelo·him′; gr., the·oi′; syr., daʼ·la·hin; lat., di′i; t, “like angels.”****nowhere in the hebrew bible are human beings referred to the word "elohim".
"godlike" in hebrew is termed "כמו אלוהים"
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Wonderment
I_love_Jeff says: "Nowhere in the Hebrew Bible are human beings referred to the word "Elohim."
Not true!
In Exodus 4.16, Moses is presented serving as "God" (lê·lō·hîm) to Aaron.
In Exodus 7.1, Moses made "God," or "a god" (’ĕ·lō·hîm) to Pharaoh.
Psalm 45:6, Solomon is addressed as "God (Heb.: ’ĕ·lō·hîm; Greek: ho theós)": “Your throne God forever and ever.” This text was quoted in Hebrews 1.8, applied to Jesus Christ.
At Psalm 82.6, human judges are referred to as "gods (’ĕ·lō·hîm)."And in the Greek Scriptures:
At John 10.34, Jesus quotes Psalm 82.6 confirming the above: W. E. Vine wrote: “The word [theos] is used of divinely appointed judges in Israel, as representing God in His authority, John 10:34, quoted from Ps. 82:6….” (An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words)
At Acts 12.22, Herod's speech led some to shout: “This is the voice of a god [theou'], not of a man.”
At Acts 14.11, Paul was called by the crowds one of "the gods [hoi' theoi']" when he made a miracle.
At Acts 28.6, Paul was called "a god [theón]" when he survived a deadly viper bite.
As to the term, "godlike ones," it need not be narrow in meaning, since not everyone in heaven has the same status or position. Humans too can be termed "godlike ones*" when they act in representation of God, as Vine noted. Of course, not all humans serve as God's representatives. (*See note on Psalm 82.6, in NWT 2013, TANAK, and NIrV)
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Are You Happy With The Country You Live In?
by minimus ini live in the usa.
is it perfect!
nope.
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Wonderment
Hi blondie,
Your "resume" is quite impressive. You have lots of experience dealing with the world. I have only visited a few countries. I can learn a lot from you.
By the way, I once lived in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, in two different time periods. I liked Wisconsin very much. But that cold, you can have it. I could take it no more. So I headed south. Wisconsin and Minnesota are two of the coldest states in the nation. I read somewhere that Minneapolis/St/Paul followed by Milwaukee were the two coldest cities in the nation (of cities with population above 100,00) Oh, I remember vividly all the icicles hanging from the roof of the houses during the long winters there.
The last time I went to Milwaukee I saw a lot of change, not necessarily for the better. Since you have traveled a lot, you have the responsibility now to share your experiences with the rest of us. Okay?