Posts by Wonderment

115

Frederick Franz, "Bible Scholar"

by Quendi in

as some of you know by now, i spent sunday, 7 august, renewing ties with a dear friend.

we're both disfellowshipped, the difference between us being he is seeking reinstatement and i am not.

we got into some very spirited discussions on different bible topics and one of them was the value of the new world translation itself.

Wonderment

jookbeard said:

I've always found it strange that Fred "frequenter of male saunas in New York" Franz receives so much adulation and is revered in this almost superstar status because he could recite scripture and public talks by memory , big deal"

I heard Fred Franz was an advocate of body cleansing by saunas and by starting the day with two glasses of warm water before his daily walk.

Some may object to F. Franz receiving adulation, but the truth is he has received far more criticism than adulation. And to this day he gets criticism, not only from, ex-JWs, but also, from mostly evangelicals at that.

And really, how many of Frederick Franz's critics get to get a mention of honor in the The New York Times (such as Fred did on December 24, 1992) when the paper described Frederick Franz as "a religious Leader....[of] a Christian denomination" and "a biblical scholar...versed in Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek."

So even if we don't agree with the figure of Fred Franz, recognition of his abilities in the midst of denial and criticism is welcomed in the name of fairness.

115

Frederick Franz, "Bible Scholar"

by Quendi in

as some of you know by now, i spent sunday, 7 august, renewing ties with a dear friend.

we're both disfellowshipped, the difference between us being he is seeking reinstatement and i am not.

we got into some very spirited discussions on different bible topics and one of them was the value of the new world translation itself.

Wonderment

designs: What exactly do you mean by ""Remedial English? And to whom is this directed at?

96

The New World Translation Quote from an Elder

by howdidtihappen in

you've probably heard this before, but at a meeting last night the elder called the nwt the "rolls royce" of bibles.

i'm new to the jw bs (and as soon as i can break away, will do so.

) but do they also believe they have a superior bible to anyone elses outside the religion?

Wonderment

NVR2L8: Thank you for your kind comments.

96

The New World Translation Quote from an Elder

by howdidtihappen in

you've probably heard this before, but at a meeting last night the elder called the nwt the "rolls royce" of bibles.

i'm new to the jw bs (and as soon as i can break away, will do so.

) but do they also believe they have a superior bible to anyone elses outside the religion?

Wonderment

Pams girl said: "If the NWT is the Rolls Royce of Bibles, why oh why are they using multiple quotes in the Awake and WT from other bibles?"

Because it adds variety to the material expounded. Also, it is used to let others know that other bible versions express it in a way that the writer wants to focus on. As to the comment of the elder saying that the NWT is the Rolls Royce of Bibles, I would say that is a meaningless statement. Bible versions are a matter of choice, and all bible translations fail in some way at their task.

115

Frederick Franz, "Bible Scholar"

by Quendi in

as some of you know by now, i spent sunday, 7 august, renewing ties with a dear friend.

we're both disfellowshipped, the difference between us being he is seeking reinstatement and i am not.

we got into some very spirited discussions on different bible topics and one of them was the value of the new world translation itself.

Wonderment

OUTLAW: Oops! Sorry about attributing the fonts observation to Terry, when it was OUTLAW the contributor. I stand corrected.

96

The New World Translation Quote from an Elder

by howdidtihappen in

you've probably heard this before, but at a meeting last night the elder called the nwt the "rolls royce" of bibles.

i'm new to the jw bs (and as soon as i can break away, will do so.

) but do they also believe they have a superior bible to anyone elses outside the religion?

Wonderment

Atlantis: The NWT Large Print Online edition of 2010 shows the brackets:

"16 because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him. 17 Also, he is before all [other] things and by means of him all [other] things were made to exist..."

All bible translators make changes to the text according to their beliefs, not just the NWT translators. For a consideration of whether "other" at Col 1:15-17 violates translation principles, see Jason BeDuhn's explanation of it in his book. At least, is another viewpoint to consider.

96

The New World Translation Quote from an Elder

by howdidtihappen in

you've probably heard this before, but at a meeting last night the elder called the nwt the "rolls royce" of bibles.

i'm new to the jw bs (and as soon as i can break away, will do so.

) but do they also believe they have a superior bible to anyone elses outside the religion?

Wonderment

sulla said: "A fellow named Jason BeDuhn wrote a small book outside his expertise a few years ago that claimed the NWT was the most unbiased translation out there. The Dubs really get geeked up over that, but his opinion is shared by nobody else with any qualification. To be honest, it isn't clear he is really qualified to hold that opinion; and suggesting that the 300 cases where the JWs insert "Jehovah" into the NT is not a profound bias is inexplicable."

Jason BeDuhn is Associate Professor of Religious Studies, and Chair Department of Humanities, Arts, and Religion, at Northern Arizona University in Flagstaff. He holds a B.A. in Religious Studies from the University of Illinois, Urbana, an M.T.S. in New Testament and Christian Origins form Harvard Divinity School, and a Ph.D. in Comparative Study of Religions form Indiana University, Bloomington.

By the way, Dr BeDuhn has taught Greek for years. He has the necessary qualifications to express his viewpoint. Can you best that?

He did take the NWT translators to task for incorporating the divine name in the NT. I have read the book, I am not quoting someone else.

115

Frederick Franz, "Bible Scholar"

by Quendi in

as some of you know by now, i spent sunday, 7 august, renewing ties with a dear friend.

we're both disfellowshipped, the difference between us being he is seeking reinstatement and i am not.

we got into some very spirited discussions on different bible topics and one of them was the value of the new world translation itself.

Wonderment

Terry: Thank you for bringing the fonts issue to my attention. It appears you are using Internet Explorer and I am using Firefox. I use Linux also. I checked Firefox on a Windows system, and it does show way smaller. Didn't realize that until you brought it up. Thanks! Let me know if the issue is still there.

therevealer: "Jesus chose to glorify God's name before others. See John 12:28-30. I believe it is better to follow Jesus in this matter than to follow modern bible translators who have an aversion to his name."

The scripture in John reads 12:28-3028 "28 ‘Father, glorify your name.’ Therefore a voice came out of heaven: ‘I both glorified [it] and will glorify [it] again.’ 29 Hence the crowd that stood about and heard it began to say that it had thundered. Others began to say: ‘An angel has spoken to him.’ 30 In answer Jesus said: ‘This voice has occurred, not for my sake, but for YOUR sakes.’"

You are right that Jesus asked for his Father's name to be glorified in front of a crowd, not that he pronounced the name. However, I don't see that contradicting my previous statement that Jesus chose to glorify God's name before others. Does it?

At John 17:6,26, Jesus says to his Father in prayer: "I have made your name known [manifest] to them and will make it known."

And since Jesus taught his followers to pray (Mt 6:9): "Let your name be sanctified," you could say that Jesus chose to glorify God's name before others. Did he not?

Now, as regards to whether actually Jesus used the tetragrammaton as JWs claim is open to debate. One issue that has puzzled bible readers for centuries is the fact that while Hebrew manuscripts have the name all over, the extant Greek ms don't. And that's where most of the controversy surrounds.

115

Frederick Franz, "Bible Scholar"

by Quendi in

as some of you know by now, i spent sunday, 7 august, renewing ties with a dear friend.

we're both disfellowshipped, the difference between us being he is seeking reinstatement and i am not.

we got into some very spirited discussions on different bible topics and one of them was the value of the new world translation itself.

Wonderment

Outlaw said: "The name Jehovah is a Translation Mistake made by a 14th century Catholic monk.."

Have you ever made a list of Bible names and attempt to make a transliteration of their names into English? That would be a good exercise.

Hint: The sweet name of "Jesus," as so many others in the Bible, do not exactly correspond to the original names. Sure, there is some uncertainty surrounding Jehovah's name when we try to transliterate the four consonants. However, other Hebrew names have vowels added later by scribes as a sort of help in pronunciation. But English names as found in our Bibles are generally quite different to the Hebrew ones. How many scholars do you know of that insist in using the closest Hebrew approximations?

Since our Bibles do not follow the Hebrew or even Greek conventions, why should we then drop the name that appears more than all other names in the Bible? You either love or hate God's name. I happen to love God's name. I have no problem whatsoever in using "Jehovah," or some other form of the divine name. If you choose not to use the divine name, that is your choice. I have no right to condemn you.

Interestingly, Jesus chose to glorify God's name before others. See John 12:28-30. I believe it is better to follow Jesus in this matter than to follow modern bible translators who have an aversion to his name. What do you think?

96

The New World Translation Quote from an Elder

by howdidtihappen in

you've probably heard this before, but at a meeting last night the elder called the nwt the "rolls royce" of bibles.

i'm new to the jw bs (and as soon as i can break away, will do so.

) but do they also believe they have a superior bible to anyone elses outside the religion?

Wonderment

Gayle said: "I was using it yesterday for comparisons of Matt 24:45. Interesting, how some use "a slave" instead of "the slave," slave there doesn't indicate any thing like a special leadership group to never question and only follow..

The New World Translation is not accurate, is only a manipulation/molestation for its usage of their JW doctrine. The proclaimed translator, Fred Franz, under oath, proved he could not translate the language of the Bible."

Gayle,in the name of fairness, I must bring it to your attention that Fred Franz under oath said he would ‘not attempt to translate Gen 2:4 from English to Hebrew,’ not that he could not translate Gen. 2:4 from Hebrew to English as is the norm. Just because most anti-WT folks twist the said statements of the trial, does not mean that we should follow their steps. Truth and fairness should prevail above lies and deceit. That goes for the WT when they do it too.

It is not true, as some have stated, that any first year Hebrew student can translate Gen 2:4 from English to Hebrew without any bible helps in the courtroom. In fact, not many Hebrew teachers can pull that off without some difficulty. Did you ever asked Raymond Franz about this incident? I did.