Posts by Wonderment

96

The New World Translation Quote from an Elder

by howdidtihappen in

you've probably heard this before, but at a meeting last night the elder called the nwt the "rolls royce" of bibles.

i'm new to the jw bs (and as soon as i can break away, will do so.

) but do they also believe they have a superior bible to anyone elses outside the religion?

Wonderment

Atlantis:

I am keenly aware that the NWT does show bias in their version in many places. I have never said the opposite. What I have stated throughout this site is that ALL bible versions show their bias somehow. The NWT is no exception. The info you provided breaks no news. I repeat: All Bible translations reflect the bias of their translators, including the New Word Translation. I have no problem with that.

Nevertheless, it is my belief that most bible versions are useful for deep bible study, including the NWT. I go further, the NWT Reference Bible is one of the best Study Bibles anywhere. It is with this statement that apparently some in in this board have a problem with, i.e. recognizing the value, the contribution the NWT has made in the field.

Most on this board harbor great resentment toward the WTS for their lack of Christianity when it comes to ex-members. I am too a victim, as you probably are. Because of this deep-rooted resentment, many have come to despise anything that has to do with this bible Society, to the point, that it has clouded their judgment in regards to the NWT. Their feeling seems to be... the WTS is evil, the NWT must be trash as well.

You do not see me defending the WTS in many subjects related to them, because I can not conciensciously do so with some exceptions. However, I do not see the same problem with the NWT. Yes, it is stilted toward their organization, but it has so much good to offer, not only to JWs, but to others as well, to stand on its own merits.

It is my belief that some ex-JWs who ALWAYS defend mainstream translations, and demonize the NWT, are lacking fair judgment. I am not advocating for a "perfect" and "holier than thou" NWT, but calling for fairness and recognition of the version as a valuable contribution to the community. Mainstream bible versions are attractive to own, but have their own tendentious issues to deal with. They too are made by imperfect humans as well. I do value their contributions in a big way.

26

Compilation of the bible and the NWT translation source.

by trailerfitter in

hi,, i have a curious question about when the bible was actually compiled.

from what i understand it was actually compiled under emperor constantines request in the 4th century ad.

this was the nicene creed.. i also am aware that there quite a few books that were considered for inclusion but weren't.

Wonderment

Doug Mason: I don't think it is wise to mention Mantey, given the fact that he wrote to the WTS and demanded a written apology for the way they had misused his work. You will see his letter in "The Scholastic Dishonesty of the Watchtower", Michael Buskirk, CARIS

I am not the WT, so I think I have more leeway than them in this forum. Secondly, Mantey should be taken to task just as we do with the WTS. Mantey is a human, with his own preconceptions and biases. He too twisted some facts, or ignored telling the public the full facts of the matter. "Scholastic dishonesty" goes both ways.

115

Frederick Franz, "Bible Scholar"

by Quendi in

as some of you know by now, i spent sunday, 7 august, renewing ties with a dear friend.

we're both disfellowshipped, the difference between us being he is seeking reinstatement and i am not.

we got into some very spirited discussions on different bible topics and one of them was the value of the new world translation itself.

Wonderment

Terry:

I stand corrected. Fred Franz, quoted Rutherford as saying regarding his own predictions: "I know I made an ass of myself." Cited by Raymond Franz in Crisis of Conscience, p. 137. Talking to a large audience in Australia in 1975, Fred related the same remark, but the words were Rutherfords. Thanks!

On a diferent note, I love The Message as much as you do. However, the NWT and The Message are two radically different versions of the Bible with different goals. Both are useful! And ALL translations should be checked against the Hebrew and Greek Text for accuracy.

26

Compilation of the bible and the NWT translation source.

by trailerfitter in

hi,, i have a curious question about when the bible was actually compiled.

from what i understand it was actually compiled under emperor constantines request in the 4th century ad.

this was the nicene creed.. i also am aware that there quite a few books that were considered for inclusion but weren't.

Wonderment

Black Sheep:

At least two members of the NWT Committee had some knowledge of Greek, Gangas and Franz. Though some may laugh at their credentials, it should be mentioned, that some scholars have expressed admiration for the NWT scholarly equipment. How could that be if they were not able to translate a restaurant menu? Gangas could easily do that. He was Greek, and spoke Greek and Spanish, besides English.

Something that is often overlooked, is the fact that the WTS is international in its scope. The WTS produces literature in hundreds of languages. "The Watch Tower Society has produced literature in 537 languages and calls on the services of more than 2,500 volunteers to assist with translation worldwide. In the early 1980's, a team of volunteers developed the world's first multilanguage electronic phototypesetting system [MEPS], which currently has the capacity to process material in 659 languages, using 29 alphabets and character sets." ( http://www.jw-media.org/aboutjw/article43.htm )

One poster here mentioned recently that he knew of someone in Greece who was equally at home with modern and biblical Greek, and whom has been assisting the WTS in the translation department for decades. There may be others. Should we allow then, to be misguided by the Walter Martins, Robert Bowmans, the Manteys and a host of others who live to destroy, and not to build?

96

The New World Translation Quote from an Elder

by howdidtihappen in

you've probably heard this before, but at a meeting last night the elder called the nwt the "rolls royce" of bibles.

i'm new to the jw bs (and as soon as i can break away, will do so.

) but do they also believe they have a superior bible to anyone elses outside the religion?

Wonderment

Ibidem, (of previous post where Robert Young was mentioned in Mantey's letter as support of the traditional reading of John 1:1).

Young's Concise Critical Bible Commentary was published after his printed translation, which explains how the last part of John 1:1 should be understood:

"AND THE WORD WAS GOD,] more lit. ‘and a God (i.e. a Divine Being) was the Word.’"

Somehow, Mantey forgot to mention this fact, or chose not to criticize Young because of Young's well-known expertise in many ancient languages.

26

Compilation of the bible and the NWT translation source.

by trailerfitter in

hi,, i have a curious question about when the bible was actually compiled.

from what i understand it was actually compiled under emperor constantines request in the 4th century ad.

this was the nicene creed.. i also am aware that there quite a few books that were considered for inclusion but weren't.

Wonderment

Doug Mason: "I cannot comment on their [NWT] OT, whether it is based on the OG (=LXX) or on the MT."

The Hebrew portion of the NWT was based on the Codex Leningrad B 19A of the Masoretic Text (R. Kittel's Biblia Hebraica, 1951-55) An update of this work, Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia, 1977 edition was used to prepare the footnote apparatus of the 1984 Reference edition. However, the LXX was consulted as well as numerous other ancient sources in the translation process.

115

Frederick Franz, "Bible Scholar"

by Quendi in

as some of you know by now, i spent sunday, 7 august, renewing ties with a dear friend.

we're both disfellowshipped, the difference between us being he is seeking reinstatement and i am not.

we got into some very spirited discussions on different bible topics and one of them was the value of the new world translation itself.

Wonderment

I want to add a comment to a previous post of mine on A.H. MacMillan.

MacMillan died way before The NY Times (1992) article on Fred Franz. What I meant was that it would not be unusual for the NY Times reporter to get information from a WT insider such as MacMillan was decades earlier.

96

The New World Translation Quote from an Elder

by howdidtihappen in

you've probably heard this before, but at a meeting last night the elder called the nwt the "rolls royce" of bibles.

i'm new to the jw bs (and as soon as i can break away, will do so.

) but do they also believe they have a superior bible to anyone elses outside the religion?

Wonderment

TTWSYF asked: Wonderment- is there any current true scholar [phd at least] who agrees with the watchtower position in regards to John 1:1?

Yes, Jason BeDuhn, (Ph.D) holds a similar exegetical position to that of the WTS.

Sulla said of BeDuhn's sympathetic comments of the NWT: The qualification is one that would justify his evaluation of "bias." I simply point out that the NWT is quite infamous for placing YHWH in many places in the NT without a shred of justification except their own bias against the divinity of Christ. To understand that the JW bible does exactly this and stil find a way to claim it is the least biased translation out there is a perfect example of missing the point.

Sulla: Jason BeDuhn compared 9 bible versions where theology plays a role in bias. He found the NWT to be a sound bible translation, showing less bias in some cases to mainstream versions. He has made it clear he is not a JW, and he took the NWT to task in many cases, pointing out places where the NWT showed bias. One such area he disagrees with the NWT Committee is in the realm of using the divine name in the NT. I got the impression Dr. BeDuhn was fair in his assesments of the various bible versions discussed.

115

Frederick Franz, "Bible Scholar"

by Quendi in

as some of you know by now, i spent sunday, 7 august, renewing ties with a dear friend.

we're both disfellowshipped, the difference between us being he is seeking reinstatement and i am not.

we got into some very spirited discussions on different bible topics and one of them was the value of the new world translation itself.

Wonderment

Outlaw said after the reading the following statement: And really, how many of Frederick Franz's critics get to get a mention of honor in the The New York Times (such as Fred did on December 24, 1992) when the paper described Frederick Franz as "a religious Leader....[of] a Christian denomination" and "a biblical scholar...versed in Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek."

"An informed person would never write that crap..Who ever wrote that didn`t do their homework."

Outlaw: The New York Times journalist is not likely to make such statement without seeing some evidence of it. Established names in the publishing industry are generally careful before they make material available to the public such as this. Besides the ridicule of being exposed as "gullible" and "misinformed," and have their reputation tarnished, the paper also knows that if they make a public statement without any substance, they will likely face thousands of complaints, many from academia demanding verifiable substance behind it. Just look at how many enemies the WTS have, and even in this forum, many posters can't hold back from demonizing Fred Franz's character. This would be one heck of an opportunity to tarnish The New York Times. The competition would have loved that, if they could.

The WT have had some insiders to privy information that only a few are priviledged to. One such insider was A. H. Macmillan. A. H. MacMillan, a former leader of the Jehovah's Witnesses, was one insider who had access to WT records, and was able to publish a history of the religious movement, said of Fred Franz, "Besides Spanish, Franz has a fluent knowledge of Portuguese and German and is conversant with French. He is also a scholar of Hebrew and Greek as well as of Syriac and Latin, all of which contribute to making him a thoroughly reliable mainstay on [WT President] Knorr's editorial staff." (Faith On The March, 1957, p. 182, New Jersey: Prentice-Hall, Inc.)

It is likely that The New York Times interviewed one such insider who provided some proof of his language capabilities.

115

Frederick Franz, "Bible Scholar"

by Quendi in

as some of you know by now, i spent sunday, 7 august, renewing ties with a dear friend.

we're both disfellowshipped, the difference between us being he is seeking reinstatement and i am not.

we got into some very spirited discussions on different bible topics and one of them was the value of the new world translation itself.

Wonderment

The WT definitely has handled the 1975 embarrasment in an un-Christian way. I don't support their behavior there.