Posts by Wonderment

63

Why does the Watchtower leadership slap its own defenders in the face?

by slimboyfat in

take the case of rolf furuli.

i don't think there has been a specific thread on the hebrew verbs u-turn in the nwt, and how the society has responded to the work of perhaps their brightest and ablest defender in their history.

so here goes.. rolf furuli has defended jws on multiple fronts in many different settings, on issues ranging from chronology, mental health, doctrines, bible translation and the blood issue.

Wonderment

slimboyfat:

First, thanks for your informative post.

We don't know who are the new members of the NWT Committee, and may never will. Some may believe that WTS rashly undertook biblical translation work. I believe otherwise. I believe more effort and scholarship went into the original NWT than into any other WT publication, including Aid/Insight among them.

For the 2013 revision, I would not expect any less effort spent on it. Undertaking translation work is very challenging, so I doubt the new NWT Committee went about it very lightly. I know that many ex-JWs find that hard to believe, but the fact is that most criticisms of the NWT deal with doctrinal issues, or the supposed incompetence of the translation team.

In regards to how the NW Revised Edition deals with the Hebrew verbs now, my feeling is that they set out to simplify the reading of the original version, and logically, the Hebrew verb translation was the first casualty. This does not necessarily mean that the original product was a waste of effort or time, but the shift to improve readability in English translations since the publication of The Living Bible has made it necessary to do that. What was acceptable as a translation in 1950 may not be in 2015. In that sense, the NWT was falling behind the times.

Also, the new release does not prove Furuli was wrong when he defended it. At least two other scholars have defended the treatment of the Hebrew verbal system as Furuli did. I think it is a matter of moving forward to make the Bible more readable to "uneducated" masses. It is more an adjustment to the times than a repair of the translation itself.

47

Are we participants in this forum because of bouts of "loneliness"?

by Wonderment in

i wonder how many of us here hold on to this meeting place out of "loneliness.

could it be that we harbor feelings of "abandonment" and "loneliness" from being left cold and dry by the wt people and our families?

perhaps we do have a need to reach out to people with similar experiences.

Wonderment

flipper:

Thanks for sharing your experiences with us. Your wife is special. Hang on to her.

Your experiences are similar to mine. I have a large family, but I don't have contact with most of them, because that's the way they want it. My big "sin" was submitting a disassociation note many years ago. In it I expressed appreciation to the elders and their kindness. I have kept my negative comments of the WTS to a minimum. Since then, I keep most of my feelings (except here, of course) tucked away.

To this day I don't know where one of my daughters lives. She is still active, and lives more than a thousand miles away, but she often visits a city in my area less than an hour drive away. I called her to see if we can meet in a place of her choice, and she said no. She said that she owes her loyalty first to Jehovah, hence she cannot communicate with me. That hurts! (My other non-active-daughter occasionally drops some info.)

And talking about self-esteem, it is difficult to have good self-esteem brought up as a JW Witness. Once out of the WT system, we all try to rebuild our lives the best way we can.

The life and example that our Lord Jesus Christ set forth is encouraging to all Christians. In it we learned how he as "perfect" individual lovingly dealt with sinners. He treated most everyone with dignity and respect, an example not followed by most church goers. Rather than imposing heavy religious burdens on people, he encouraged others to "live freely and lightly":

“Are you tired? Worn out? Burned out on religion? Come to me. Get away with me and you’ll recover your life. I’ll show you how to take a real rest. Walk with me and work with me—watch how I do it. Learn the unforced rhythms of grace. I won’t lay anything heavy or ill-fitting on you. Keep company with me and you’ll learn to live freely and lightly.” (Matt 11.28-30, The Message)

56

One reason behind the slow steady decline of JWs

by AllTimeJeff in

hello first of all to those that remember me.

i'm doing well, 10 years since my missionary trip to cameroon.

i've met a couple of goals.

Wonderment

I can tell you why I left among other things:

Excessive repetition: Back in the time of Knorr & Franz, the publications had more substance than they do at present, and the WT did not repeat as much as they do now.

Since the voluntary-donations arrangement, most of their everything has gone for the worse. The have been repeatedly begging for money without admitting so.

The internet has exposed their dubious doctrines and policies. And they have responded by harshly isolating the ones speaking the truth. The internet is doing them a lot of damage, and they don't seem to know how to deal with the threat.

Reform is badly needed from headquarters level down to local congregations. Will they? Only time will tell us if they can come up with someone smart enough at the top level to help their cause. But they keep choosing low-educated members to lead them, which doesn't help one bit. What they don't need right now are leaders who suck up to their traditional ways. They have to find someone who can challenge their standard of doing things. They need someone strong-minded like the new CEO of T-Mobile who is changing the way internet providers service their customers. But don't bet your money on that happening.

10

Why does the Watchtower and Jehovah's Witnesses use the Bible?

by WireRider in

the watchtower, post russell, and the jehovah's witnesses hate the jews and the catholics.

they are not allowed to even set foot in the churches of the bible.

they endlessly rail against how wrong they are - but they are all based on their book??.

Wonderment

Ding: "It is surprising that the WTS encourages people to read the Bible, given their teaching that no one can understand the Bible without WT literature to explain it. That would make admittedly uninspired WT literature superior to the scriptures the organization accepts as inspired, wouldn't it?"

I like that!

47

Are we participants in this forum because of bouts of "loneliness"?

by Wonderment in

i wonder how many of us here hold on to this meeting place out of "loneliness.

could it be that we harbor feelings of "abandonment" and "loneliness" from being left cold and dry by the wt people and our families?

perhaps we do have a need to reach out to people with similar experiences.

Wonderment

stan livedeath: "it is true i lead a very lonely--isolated life--and this site in many ways is a social online contact resource. i have no interest in anything bible-related--in fact i stop reading as soon as any scripture is quoted."

I am saddened to hear your story of a "lonely--isolated life," and gladdened by the fact you strive to stay social. I myself live an isolated life. It has not been easy.

Stan, I was surprised to read about you having "no interest in anything bible-related." I have lost quite a bit of interest myself after experimenting all the hypocrisy of religious movements.

I think the Bible is not fully the culprit. We can reach out to the Bible for comfort, and grasp from it whatever we can -- like the positive teachings found within. I wouldn't dwell at the seemingly conflicting stories in it. I think it was Mark Twain who once said (when asked if he was bothered by stuff in the Bible he couldn't understand):

"It ain't those parts of the Bible that I can't understand that bother me, it is the parts that I do understand."

Wishing you well!

47

Are we participants in this forum because of bouts of "loneliness"?

by Wonderment in

i wonder how many of us here hold on to this meeting place out of "loneliness.

could it be that we harbor feelings of "abandonment" and "loneliness" from being left cold and dry by the wt people and our families?

perhaps we do have a need to reach out to people with similar experiences.

Wonderment

I wonder how many of us here hold on to this meeting place out of "loneliness."

Could it be that we harbor feelings of "abandonment" and "loneliness" from being left cold and dry by the WT people and our families? Perhaps we do have a need to reach out to people with similar experiences. How much of our participation here is due to spiritual needs, or is it in reality a longing need we share to be accepted by someone else after being dumped to the curb by our previous associates?

I would love to hear your sentiments on the matter.

25

"Obey" or "Be persuaded" at Hebrews 13.17

by Wonderment in

various posters have apparently concluded that the wt society is wrong by quoting hebrews 13.17 as a reason for christians to submit to, and be "obedient" to those taking the lead among them.

they have pointed out that the greek word for obedience is "hypakouo" or some other, not "pei'tho" which is the one that appears in the beginning of verse 17 at hebrews ch.

their motive for their objections may be one of rancor brought about by the extreme authoritative measures the society have imposed on the brotherhood.

Wonderment

slimboyfat: If I recall correctly, the reference was not a direct link to heb 13.17, but various posters at different times have brought up this issue.

Atlantis: "Good job [WireRider]! You know you have won the debate when excuses are made...No matter what you tell them or even prove to them they will always come back with those excuses."

Sorry Atlantis, this is not a debate. It was simply a question to further explore the viability of a rendering at Heb 13.17. How could you or WireRider win a "debate" if both of you choose to ignore the question, and instead go off on random attacks to the WT organization (though they are guilty of many things) unrelated to the present subject? Let the reader decide for him/herself who really is addressing specific issues here, rather than channelling energies on personal issues.

25

"Obey" or "Be persuaded" at Hebrews 13.17

by Wonderment in

various posters have apparently concluded that the wt society is wrong by quoting hebrews 13.17 as a reason for christians to submit to, and be "obedient" to those taking the lead among them.

they have pointed out that the greek word for obedience is "hypakouo" or some other, not "pei'tho" which is the one that appears in the beginning of verse 17 at hebrews ch.

their motive for their objections may be one of rancor brought about by the extreme authoritative measures the society have imposed on the brotherhood.

Wonderment

Mephis,

You brought up some good points. Thanks!

25

"Obey" or "Be persuaded" at Hebrews 13.17

by Wonderment in

various posters have apparently concluded that the wt society is wrong by quoting hebrews 13.17 as a reason for christians to submit to, and be "obedient" to those taking the lead among them.

they have pointed out that the greek word for obedience is "hypakouo" or some other, not "pei'tho" which is the one that appears in the beginning of verse 17 at hebrews ch.

their motive for their objections may be one of rancor brought about by the extreme authoritative measures the society have imposed on the brotherhood.

Wonderment

WireRider: "The people/former-people [of WT followers-?] can only see 2 or 3 times the WT/JW guaranteed the end of the world when you can prove on paper it was more then a dozen times -- but they cannot see those other worlds. How does that work?"

I am aware the WT Society did fail more than 2 or 3 times in their "end-of-the-times" predictions. The thing is that whether the WT failed 3, 10, 12 or more times does not change the fact that ‘Jesus is the only way to the Father,’ not a group of people claiming to be "the faithful and discreet slave" as the way to God. I think we can agree on that. Still, the subject of this post deals specifically with the meaning of the Greek word peithō ("persuade", "obey" in regards to those leading them) at Heb. 13.17, and any submitted comments on that are rightly welcomed.

25

"Obey" or "Be persuaded" at Hebrews 13.17

by Wonderment in

various posters have apparently concluded that the wt society is wrong by quoting hebrews 13.17 as a reason for christians to submit to, and be "obedient" to those taking the lead among them.

they have pointed out that the greek word for obedience is "hypakouo" or some other, not "pei'tho" which is the one that appears in the beginning of verse 17 at hebrews ch.

their motive for their objections may be one of rancor brought about by the extreme authoritative measures the society have imposed on the brotherhood.

Wonderment

WireRider: The WT has proven of a dozen times to claim the end of the world, as fund raisers. I would not trust them.

I don't either.

WireRider: "...why the hell would I sign up for your cult?"

The JW organization is not my cult. In fact, I don't assist to religious activities of any kind. I haven't seen the inside of a Kingdom Hall or Assembly Hall for more than 20 years. Your comments are appreciated, but I find them irrelevant to the discussion at hand regarding Heb. 13.17. I think one argument you made, if I understood you correctly, is that no one should be enslaved to a totalitarian religious organization. I agree with that. Nonetheless, I don't understand how any of this disputes the fact that most Bible versions at Heb. 13.17 say that Christians should "obey" their leaders within their communities. It seems to me that you haven't addressed this issue yet.