Posts by Wonderment

63

Why does the Watchtower leadership slap its own defenders in the face?

by slimboyfat in

take the case of rolf furuli.

i don't think there has been a specific thread on the hebrew verbs u-turn in the nwt, and how the society has responded to the work of perhaps their brightest and ablest defender in their history.

so here goes.. rolf furuli has defended jws on multiple fronts in many different settings, on issues ranging from chronology, mental health, doctrines, bible translation and the blood issue.

Wonderment

slimboyfat:

Not sure if this helps about your inquiry of Fre Franz and his Jewish friend:

Barbara Anderson, a former member of JWs who worked for ten years at the WT Brooklyn Headquarters, and became a Writing Staff member, recalls that Fred Franz had a very close friend with a heavy Jewish accent, Barry Horowitz, who was knowledgeable in the Hebrew language. Anderson wrote: “This man was the ‘expert’ Franz went to when he needed help to explain, translate, or interpret the Hebrew language for many of the complicated interpretive books which Franz, the ‘oracle,’ wrote for the organization.” (26 December 2008)

Also, Vidqun wrote to you:

"A while back I read a piece by Barbara of Silent Lambs fame, reporting that she had asked a Jewish colleague (involved with the Society’s translation work in Israel) whether Franz’s Hebrew was up to standard. The woman confirmed that his Hebrew was accurate, and that she had high praise for the man."

This account is very similar to the one statement of Ray Franz. So I wonder if Vidqun's account is referring to the same incident." Vidqun, are you listening? Could you answer this one for us?

"While working on the Watch Tower’s Bible dictionary Aid to Bible Understanding, on more than one occasion I had to seek out his assistance [Fred's] with reference to Hebrew renderings. He was always able to supply the needed information. In 1971, on a trip to Israel, we visited the Watch Tower’s branch office located in Haifa. A member of the staff there, Dalia Erez, a young Jewish woman, native to the country, did Hebrew translation of the organization’s publications. She spent part of one day discussing with Fred Franz certain translation problems she was experiencing and received his assistance and recommendations. She clearly found his knowledge of Hebrew solid."

9

Dating a Religious Person - Thoughts?

by Garrett in

hello my dear friends :).

i am here once again because you guys are pretty much the most awesome peeps ever.. i have a new dilemma that i'd like your opinions on.

as most of you know, i'm an agnostic.

Wonderment

Garrett: "Can a relationship work out with one being religious and the other not?"

Yes. It depends of course whether each one will respect the other. Without respect, no! I repeat what FayeDunaway wisely stated: "A lot of it is your attitude. If you can respect her beliefs and not belittle them, and if she respects that you don't think her religion has all the answers, this could work."

In line with the above, both would have to consider whether any of you have extreme tendencies. For example, my wife is a devout Seventh Day Adventist. Thus, her Saturday observance (from sunset to sunset) is kind of sacred. But somehow, she is ready for her Sabbath even before sunset -- does not want to engage in any work long before or after the Sabbath is over. When Sunday comes she is still kind of celebrating her Sabbath. In other words, she needs part of three days to overcome her observance. That alone can affect our plans for the weekend.

Thus, as a husband who does not observe the Sabbath, you can see how an extreme attitude of the believer can affect the relationship between both parties. Also, she has at times brought out my past JW faith out of nowhere, and how it bears into my present life in a negative way. Perhaps she is right. All religious and non-religious differences become greater when the pair live together. In all, we both are making honest efforts to accommodate the needs of each other. Regardless, I love her very much.

The point is that if you are not sure, keep alert for any red flags, and don't ignore them. Just three days ago in the dentist office, I met this lady who is now married for the second time. She admitted dating online just once in between with someone else she liked very much, but did not commit to him due to him becoming very angry, almost violent, for something she considered minor. His behavior scared her. It was the red flag for her to exit the relationship.

So Garrett, stay alert to her responses as you come up with various subjects. The problem is not so much whether she agrees with you at times, but how she handles your opinions and your dislikes when they do happen. Again, it comes down to respecting each other.

63

Why does the Watchtower leadership slap its own defenders in the face?

by slimboyfat in

take the case of rolf furuli.

i don't think there has been a specific thread on the hebrew verbs u-turn in the nwt, and how the society has responded to the work of perhaps their brightest and ablest defender in their history.

so here goes.. rolf furuli has defended jws on multiple fronts in many different settings, on issues ranging from chronology, mental health, doctrines, bible translation and the blood issue.

Wonderment

Yes, I agree the WT did a complete turnaround in its revision of the NWT, not only with the Hebrew Verbal System, but in many other areas as well, including their slavish approach to using one English word for each Greek one for the earlier editions. Many of us were quite surprised that the NWT Committee broke many of their previously stated positions.

We can only wish they do the same with the way they deal with dissenters.

63

Why does the Watchtower leadership slap its own defenders in the face?

by slimboyfat in

take the case of rolf furuli.

i don't think there has been a specific thread on the hebrew verbs u-turn in the nwt, and how the society has responded to the work of perhaps their brightest and ablest defender in their history.

so here goes.. rolf furuli has defended jws on multiple fronts in many different settings, on issues ranging from chronology, mental health, doctrines, bible translation and the blood issue.

Wonderment

slimboyfat: "But again, whether Franz/Furuli are right or wrong about the waw-consecutive was not really my point. They could be right about that issue and my point still stands. The original NWT and Furuli argued that the woodennes of the NWT was justified on the grounds of accuracy and faithfulness to the Hebrew. The revised NWT takes the opposite view that readability is paramount."

I think I understood correctly from the beginning. It was likely me who gave another impression. I did not mean to contradict you or give the impression that I did. My English writing skills are definitely not as good as some of the posters here. My intention was perhaps to add a thought to that previously stated.

63

Why does the Watchtower leadership slap its own defenders in the face?

by slimboyfat in

take the case of rolf furuli.

i don't think there has been a specific thread on the hebrew verbs u-turn in the nwt, and how the society has responded to the work of perhaps their brightest and ablest defender in their history.

so here goes.. rolf furuli has defended jws on multiple fronts in many different settings, on issues ranging from chronology, mental health, doctrines, bible translation and the blood issue.

Wonderment

slimboyfat:

It's hard to ascertain whether the NWT dropped the previous Hebrew Verbal approach due to the impossibility of reconciling variant positions on the matter, or whether it was solely for readability reasons.

Vidqun presented an interesting post where he seems to indicate that the Furuli-Franz approach was wrong. I am not so sure. Is there someone else recently besides "Kummerow 2007 and Cook 2010" (I am aware of earlier works where scholars expressed the matter was still ‘uncertain’) having a different view. The point is, has this matter been settled recently without question? I wonder if time can clear this enigma.

63

Why does the Watchtower leadership slap its own defenders in the face?

by slimboyfat in

take the case of rolf furuli.

i don't think there has been a specific thread on the hebrew verbs u-turn in the nwt, and how the society has responded to the work of perhaps their brightest and ablest defender in their history.

so here goes.. rolf furuli has defended jws on multiple fronts in many different settings, on issues ranging from chronology, mental health, doctrines, bible translation and the blood issue.

Wonderment

slimboyfat:

First, thanks for your informative post.

We don't know who are the new members of the NWT Committee, and may never will. Some may believe that WTS rashly undertook biblical translation work. I believe otherwise. I believe more effort and scholarship went into the original NWT than into any other WT publication, including Aid/Insight among them.

For the 2013 revision, I would not expect any less effort spent on it. Undertaking translation work is very challenging, so I doubt the new NWT Committee went about it very lightly. I know that many ex-JWs find that hard to believe, but the fact is that most criticisms of the NWT deal with doctrinal issues, or the supposed incompetence of the translation team.

In regards to how the NW Revised Edition deals with the Hebrew verbs now, my feeling is that they set out to simplify the reading of the original version, and logically, the Hebrew verb translation was the first casualty. This does not necessarily mean that the original product was a waste of effort or time, but the shift to improve readability in English translations since the publication of The Living Bible has made it necessary to do that. What was acceptable as a translation in 1950 may not be in 2015. In that sense, the NWT was falling behind the times.

Also, the new release does not prove Furuli was wrong when he defended it. At least two other scholars have defended the treatment of the Hebrew verbal system as Furuli did. I think it is a matter of moving forward to make the Bible more readable to "uneducated" masses. It is more an adjustment to the times than a repair of the translation itself.

47

Are we participants in this forum because of bouts of "loneliness"?

by Wonderment in

i wonder how many of us here hold on to this meeting place out of "loneliness.

could it be that we harbor feelings of "abandonment" and "loneliness" from being left cold and dry by the wt people and our families?

perhaps we do have a need to reach out to people with similar experiences.

Wonderment

flipper:

Thanks for sharing your experiences with us. Your wife is special. Hang on to her.

Your experiences are similar to mine. I have a large family, but I don't have contact with most of them, because that's the way they want it. My big "sin" was submitting a disassociation note many years ago. In it I expressed appreciation to the elders and their kindness. I have kept my negative comments of the WTS to a minimum. Since then, I keep most of my feelings (except here, of course) tucked away.

To this day I don't know where one of my daughters lives. She is still active, and lives more than a thousand miles away, but she often visits a city in my area less than an hour drive away. I called her to see if we can meet in a place of her choice, and she said no. She said that she owes her loyalty first to Jehovah, hence she cannot communicate with me. That hurts! (My other non-active-daughter occasionally drops some info.)

And talking about self-esteem, it is difficult to have good self-esteem brought up as a JW Witness. Once out of the WT system, we all try to rebuild our lives the best way we can.

The life and example that our Lord Jesus Christ set forth is encouraging to all Christians. In it we learned how he as "perfect" individual lovingly dealt with sinners. He treated most everyone with dignity and respect, an example not followed by most church goers. Rather than imposing heavy religious burdens on people, he encouraged others to "live freely and lightly":

“Are you tired? Worn out? Burned out on religion? Come to me. Get away with me and you’ll recover your life. I’ll show you how to take a real rest. Walk with me and work with me—watch how I do it. Learn the unforced rhythms of grace. I won’t lay anything heavy or ill-fitting on you. Keep company with me and you’ll learn to live freely and lightly.” (Matt 11.28-30, The Message)

56

One reason behind the slow steady decline of JWs

by AllTimeJeff in

hello first of all to those that remember me.

i'm doing well, 10 years since my missionary trip to cameroon.

i've met a couple of goals.

Wonderment

I can tell you why I left among other things:

Excessive repetition: Back in the time of Knorr & Franz, the publications had more substance than they do at present, and the WT did not repeat as much as they do now.

Since the voluntary-donations arrangement, most of their everything has gone for the worse. The have been repeatedly begging for money without admitting so.

The internet has exposed their dubious doctrines and policies. And they have responded by harshly isolating the ones speaking the truth. The internet is doing them a lot of damage, and they don't seem to know how to deal with the threat.

Reform is badly needed from headquarters level down to local congregations. Will they? Only time will tell us if they can come up with someone smart enough at the top level to help their cause. But they keep choosing low-educated members to lead them, which doesn't help one bit. What they don't need right now are leaders who suck up to their traditional ways. They have to find someone who can challenge their standard of doing things. They need someone strong-minded like the new CEO of T-Mobile who is changing the way internet providers service their customers. But don't bet your money on that happening.

10

Why does the Watchtower and Jehovah's Witnesses use the Bible?

by WireRider in

the watchtower, post russell, and the jehovah's witnesses hate the jews and the catholics.

they are not allowed to even set foot in the churches of the bible.

they endlessly rail against how wrong they are - but they are all based on their book??.

Wonderment

Ding: "It is surprising that the WTS encourages people to read the Bible, given their teaching that no one can understand the Bible without WT literature to explain it. That would make admittedly uninspired WT literature superior to the scriptures the organization accepts as inspired, wouldn't it?"

I like that!

47

Are we participants in this forum because of bouts of "loneliness"?

by Wonderment in

i wonder how many of us here hold on to this meeting place out of "loneliness.

could it be that we harbor feelings of "abandonment" and "loneliness" from being left cold and dry by the wt people and our families?

perhaps we do have a need to reach out to people with similar experiences.

Wonderment

stan livedeath: "it is true i lead a very lonely--isolated life--and this site in many ways is a social online contact resource. i have no interest in anything bible-related--in fact i stop reading as soon as any scripture is quoted."

I am saddened to hear your story of a "lonely--isolated life," and gladdened by the fact you strive to stay social. I myself live an isolated life. It has not been easy.

Stan, I was surprised to read about you having "no interest in anything bible-related." I have lost quite a bit of interest myself after experimenting all the hypocrisy of religious movements.

I think the Bible is not fully the culprit. We can reach out to the Bible for comfort, and grasp from it whatever we can -- like the positive teachings found within. I wouldn't dwell at the seemingly conflicting stories in it. I think it was Mark Twain who once said (when asked if he was bothered by stuff in the Bible he couldn't understand):

"It ain't those parts of the Bible that I can't understand that bother me, it is the parts that I do understand."

Wishing you well!