Posts by Wonderment

26

The mistranslation of John 8.58

by Wonderment in

john 8.58 is one of those scriptures which translators often mis-translate.. i am aware this text is defended with passion either way by its advocates.

many insist the "i am" rendering found in many versions is correct.

others defend the "i have been" or "i was" readings of other versions.

Wonderment

Clambake: "An author I found interesting was Daniel B Wallace and he focuses more on

98% of the bible was is the same instead of the 2% that is different....JWs are really trying

to disprove the bible. Once you start to think of the bible in terms of context and probability

from a mathematical point of view, mainstream Christian beliefs are pretty much what the

bible teaches. Pay them no mind. Same with this wonderment poster. He is a bible burnout

who has fried his brain."

Do you know that Daniel B. Wallace has explained what I have stated before in regards to

a Greek construction (as that found in John 8.58), having a Greek "progressive present" verb

in the presence of a temporal indicator, the English present perfect is normally called for in translation.

Wallace wrote under (Present of Past Action Still in Progress):

“The present tense may be used to describe an action that, begun in the past, continues in

the present. The emphasis is on the present time. Note that this is different from the perfect tense in that the perfect speaks only about the results existing in the present time. It is different from the progressive present in that it reaches back in time and usually, if not always, has some sort of temporal indicator, such as an adverbial phrase, to show this past-referring element ...

The key to this usage is normally to translate the present tense as an English present perfect …Luke 15:29 τοσαῦτα ἔτη δουλεύω σοι [tosauta etē douleuō soi] I have served you for these

many years 1 John 3:8 ἀπʼ ἀρχῆς ὁ διάβολος ἁμαρτάνει [ap' archēs ho diabolos hamartanei]

the devil has been sinning from the beginning.” (The Basics of New Testament Syntax,

pp. 222-3. Italics and bold letters his. Underline and brackets mine.)

Let look at two texts:

In Luke 15.29, the Greek literally says:

"Look! So many years I am slaving to you..."

"[Look!] I have served you for these many years" - (Wallace's translation)

In 1 John 3.8, the Greek says:

"because from beginning the Devil is sinning."

"the devil has been sinning from the beginning.” - (Wallace's translation)

So in effect, Wallace understands this construction similarly to grammarians Hardy Hansen

& Gerald M. Quinn previously quoted:

“When [the present is] used with expressions denoting past time, the present is the equivalent of the English present progressive perfect."

Consider too that although many Trinitarians are confident the "I am" expression issued by

Christ is surely linked to Exodus 3.14, not all agree. One such scholar, James White, is an Evangelical who defends the Trinity with passion before Jehovah's Witnesses, but came to this conclusion:

“It could fairly be admitted that an immediate and unqualified jump from the ego eimi of

John 8:58 to Exodus 3:14 is unwise.” (“Purpose and Meaning of ‘Ego Eimi’ in the Gospel of

John In Reference to the Deity of Christ.”)

Another scholar, C. K. Barrett, who served as Professor of Divinity in the University of Durham, concluded:

That the Jews' reaction in verse 59  "does not mean  that Jesus

had claimed to be God.”  (The Gospel According to St. John)


I will say this:  Not everyone has the same understanding of things

relating to a particular scripture. And that is true even among

Catholics and Protestant believers. The challenge then, is to analyze

the various available explanations to see which ones fit better with

Jesus' own simple statements... "I live because of the Father";

 "I am God's Son." (John 6.57; 10.36)

26

The mistranslation of John 8.58

by Wonderment in

john 8.58 is one of those scriptures which translators often mis-translate.. i am aware this text is defended with passion either way by its advocates.

many insist the "i am" rendering found in many versions is correct.

others defend the "i have been" or "i was" readings of other versions.

Wonderment

slimboyfat: "Unfortunately I can't read the opening post because it is obscured by an advert. Am I the only one?"

No, I accidentally hit some keyboard button which spread the margins. Sorry!

I sent you by "e-mail" the full message hoping it is correct now. Check your mailbox.

26

The mistranslation of John 8.58

by Wonderment in

john 8.58 is one of those scriptures which translators often mis-translate.. i am aware this text is defended with passion either way by its advocates.

many insist the "i am" rendering found in many versions is correct.

others defend the "i have been" or "i was" readings of other versions.

Wonderment

megaboy: "He was saying that he was Yah, which was not the same person as YHWH."

Your personal conclusion is welcomed just as any other. But consider this:

The book Fundamentals of New Testament Greek had this to say of the use of ego eimi in John 8.58:

"[ eimi' ] can be used as the main verb of several types of sentences. For example, it is often used as a linking verb in which one thing is equated or linked with another. In the English sentence ‘He is an athlete,’ the person referred to its equated with being an athlete. For example: Mark 14:70 ... you are a Galilean.

" Sometimes the verb is used on its own, as a verb of existence. Perhaps the best-known example of this is the following: John 8.58 [ ego'eimi' ] I am." (Page 72)

I take this to mean that the authors are not assigning any mystical significance to the Greek phrase as others are tempted in doing in regards to Jesus' deity. It is simply expressing existence. In other words, if I understand then correctly, the meaning is: "I was alive before Abraham was born." (The New Testament in Plain English)

Or: “I already was before Abraham was born.” – Worldwide English New Testament.

Or, if you don't like the use of the imperfect in the above version and prefer using a present verb, the conclusion would be: "I am in existence since before Abraham was born.

Or better yet, use the English present perfect as does The Source New Testament:

“I have been in existence since before Abraham was born!”

19

"Freeness of speech"

by Wonderment in

this was posted on another thread (http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/6040010839031808/christmas-tree-word-appreciation), but wondered about how others here would see this with one experience i had as an elder now as ex-jws.. when we were jw's we had to be extremely careful with what we said around the brotherhood.

if someone said anything out of the ordinary, relationships among the involved were halted immediately, or were never the same afterwards.

in this place, one can say almost anything without the fear of having a truck run over us.

Wonderment

The Searcher: "‘Even Thomas doubted the Lord.’

Not only Thomas - Matthew 28:17 - ‘When they saw, him they did obeisance, but some doubted.’"

To "doubt" is human.

19

"Freeness of speech"

by Wonderment in

this was posted on another thread (http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/6040010839031808/christmas-tree-word-appreciation), but wondered about how others here would see this with one experience i had as an elder now as ex-jws.. when we were jw's we had to be extremely careful with what we said around the brotherhood.

if someone said anything out of the ordinary, relationships among the involved were halted immediately, or were never the same afterwards.

in this place, one can say almost anything without the fear of having a truck run over us.

Wonderment

Vidiot: "One of my little wake-up moments was realizing that even though the WTS supposedly championed "free speech" in the courts, they did not practice or tolerate said freedom internally."

Well put!

9

How long will Paradise remaineth? Does Genesis 8:22 give us some kind of inidication?

by I_love_Jeff in

watchtower 6/15/1953 pg 371 though their annual periods were not calculated to the fraction of the day, there was no mistaking the seasons of the year, since jehovah had said, while the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease.gen.

although jehovah's witnesses believe that paradise earth will remain forever, why does there own watchtower library 2014 software state otherwise?.

original word: part of speech: substantive; adverb accusative; adverb.

Wonderment

I_love_Jeff: "May I use your info. in my notes?"

Yes, as long as it's "fair play."

19

"Freeness of speech"

by Wonderment in

this was posted on another thread (http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/6040010839031808/christmas-tree-word-appreciation), but wondered about how others here would see this with one experience i had as an elder now as ex-jws.. when we were jw's we had to be extremely careful with what we said around the brotherhood.

if someone said anything out of the ordinary, relationships among the involved were halted immediately, or were never the same afterwards.

in this place, one can say almost anything without the fear of having a truck run over us.

Wonderment

Magnum: "Elders who check to see whether outlines are adhered to are, to me, like Pharisees. They worry about rules and details, but oftentimes miss the point; they miss the bigger picture. They are more worried about their rules than the end results."

How true!

Nicholaus Kopernicus:

"My experience is that a talk is interesting or not depending on how much the speaker incorporates into the outline from external references. When he adds information and references it, this gives weight to what he is saying. It is tragic that there are influences around who seek to extinguish individuality on the one hand, and genuine desire to refresh, stimulate, and encourage the audience on the other hand."

Which proves the point that the WT places flock-control and manipulation over what benefits listeners most.

19

"Freeness of speech"

by Wonderment in

this was posted on another thread (http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/6040010839031808/christmas-tree-word-appreciation), but wondered about how others here would see this with one experience i had as an elder now as ex-jws.. when we were jw's we had to be extremely careful with what we said around the brotherhood.

if someone said anything out of the ordinary, relationships among the involved were halted immediately, or were never the same afterwards.

in this place, one can say almost anything without the fear of having a truck run over us.

Wonderment

This was posted on another thread (http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/6040010839031808/christmas-tree-word-appreciation), but wondered about how others here would see this with one experience I had as an elder now as ex-JWs.

When we were JW's we had to be EXTREMELY careful with what we said around the brotherhood. If someone said anything out of the ordinary, relationships among the involved were halted immediately, or were never the same afterwards.

In this place, one can say almost anything without the fear of having a truck run over us. Even Thomas doubted the Lord, and wasn't rejected for not being faithful to ‘the slaveclass.’ Neither was Peter for negating Christ.

The Bible speaks of Christian freedom. Interestingly, the NWT in Phil. 1.20 shows Paul speaking of his "freeness of speech" in declaring Christ. What a difference an organization makes.

Let me tell you of one episode I had as an an elder. I was assigned to give a talk to a nearby congregation 45 mins. away. I deviated quite a bit from the WT outline which I considered "boring" even back then. No sooner did I step down from the podium, when the Presiding Overseer at the local congregation approached me before I left the building. He told me he was not pleased with my talk, not because of the lack of content, but because I did not follow the WT outline by the book (I noticed some elders had the habit of following invited speakers with a copy of the outline, which I personally found tacky).

The PO told me he did not want me back in HIS congregation, and assured me he would contact the PO of my congregation so as to prevent other potential congregations from having me as a guest speaker, which he did.

Sure enough, the local PO brought it to my attention, and we both ended the conversation with a disconcerting feeling. In the end, he didn't eliminate me from his list of traveling speakers, but I could tell it was going to be a factor in deciding where to and where not to send me out.

Now, was the whole experience necessary? What do you think?

Two new editions of Revised NWT

by Wonderment in

this year (2015) saw the release of the revised nwt in the korean and portuguese languages.. various other nwt editions in minor languages were also published:.

new world translation in more languages.

as of august 31, 2015, the new world translation hadbeen translated in whole or in part into 129 languages.the bible is also available on jw.org in 129 languages,including seven sign languages.

Wonderment

This year (2015) saw the release of the Revised NWT in the Korean and Portuguese languages.

Various other NWT editions in minor languages were also published:

New World Translation in More Languages

AS OF August 31, 2015, the New World Translation had
been translated in whole or in part into 129 languages.
The Bible is also available on jw.org in 129 languages,
including seven sign languages. The following editions
were released during the 2015 service year:

LOCATION
LANGUAGE
EDITION
Malaysia
Malay
Greek Scriptures1
South Korea
Korean
Revised Edition
Georgia
Azerbaijani
Complete Bible
Kazakhstan
Kazakh
Complete Bible
Ghana
Ga
Greek Scriptures1
Philippines
Hiligaynon
Complete Bible
Nigeria
Isoko
Greek Scriptures1
Ethiopia
Amharic
Complete Bible
Fiji
Fijian
Complete Bible
Mexico
Tzotzil
Greek Scriptures1
Ghana
Ewe
Complete Bible
Brazil
Portuguese
Revised Edition
Zambia
Luvale
Complete Bible
Haiti
Haitian Creole
Complete Bible
Kenya
Kikuyu
Greek Scriptures1
Congo (Kinshasa)
Kongo
Complete Bible

Source: 2016 YEARBOOK, page 30. http://www.jw.org/en/publications/books/2016-yearbook/

9

How long will Paradise remaineth? Does Genesis 8:22 give us some kind of inidication?

by I_love_Jeff in

watchtower 6/15/1953 pg 371 though their annual periods were not calculated to the fraction of the day, there was no mistaking the seasons of the year, since jehovah had said, while the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease.gen.

although jehovah's witnesses believe that paradise earth will remain forever, why does there own watchtower library 2014 software state otherwise?.

original word: part of speech: substantive; adverb accusative; adverb.

Wonderment

A little more information on the opening word of Genesis 8.22 (‛ôd ):

The Hebrew adverb ‛ôd has been rendered with the idea of a: going-around, continuance, still, again, yet, while, as long as, during, etc.

It has two primary categories of meaning relating to action: continuing or durative action, and repeated or additional action. Other nuances of the word derive from one of these two primary semantic roles.

The NASB, a literal translation, renders the term mostly as: "again" (nearly 100x); "still" (84); "longer", "any longer" (nearly 100x), "yet (43x); "more" (39x), and in numerous other ways in lesser representations. So anyone can see from this that there is no one word to cover all that can be expressed with ‛ôd.

‛ôd can also be negated with the addition of a negative particle 'ayin or lō', (which appears at the beginning of Gen. 8.22). At Isaiah 2.4, the negative particle lō' appears with ‛ôd (Literally: "and-not they-will-learn more war": NASB, "Never again will they learn war.")

Other examples: Gen. 8.21; 9.15; Lev. 27.20; Num. 18.22; Deut. 3.26; Ecc.9.6)

At Gen. 9.15, we read: "and never again will the waters become a flood to destroy all flesh." The statement does not exclude another world-wide judgment. Does it?

Now we can better understand why Fox translated Gen. 8.22 thus: "22 (never) again, all the days of the earth, shall sowing and harvest, cold and heat, summer and winter, day and night ever cease!" (Parenthesis his.)

Hence, the Hebrew word at the beginning of the verse (in the presence of the negative particle in the full statement) may serve as an adverbial expression modifying the whole sentence. The NW translators of the Revised edition employed it as such at the beginning of the verse, affecting the whole statement. It does not mean that their selection of words or the sum of them was the best translation choice, but perhaps they saw a chance here to prop their doctrinal belief of an ever-lasting earth.

Even the translation choice of "while" used in some versions (NASB, etc. -- suggesting the earth is perishable) -- reflects the interpretation of the translators. How so? Well, the Hebrew word ôd appears nearly 500x in the Hebrew text, yet less than 10x is it rendered "while" in NASB -- Gen. 8.22 being one of the few places where it appears. Obviously, the NASB translators don't believe the earth is ever-lasting. Do they?

Someone may conclude that their choice of words must implicate the earth is forever, eternal. However, the adverbial expression, "from now on" excludes the inherent notion of eternity or creation of the earth up to the point of the spoken declaration. Actually, biblical context shows the earth was created. (Gen. 1.1) It wasn't forever there. Nor should the verse be used as proof that the earth shall endure forever. Whether the earth is ever-lasting or not must be gathered from other Scriptural sources.

The main point is that, "As long as the earth remains, there will be planting and harvest, cold and heat, summer and winter, day and night." (NLT)

Through clever use of words, translators at times indulge in interpreting certain passages to their own belief. The NWTr may have done so here, but other translators don't hesitate to do alike in other places (like using "while" in Gen. 8.22, "hell" for both "hades" and "tartarus" in their versions-2 Pet 2.4), or by adding "personality" to "spirit of God" at Genesis 1.2.

So basically, at Gen. 8.22, God promised that the daily and annual cycles of nature would continue for as long as the earth remained. I think the rest is added interpretation to God's declaration.