The mistranslation of John 8.58

by Wonderment 26 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Wonderment
    Wonderment

    John 8.58 is one of those scriptures which translators often mis-translate.

    I am aware this text is defended with passion either way by its advocates. Many insist the "I AM" rendering found in many versions is correct. Others defend the "I have been" or "I was" readings of other versions. Who is right? Right off the bat, I am going to tell you that the rendering "I AM" is proper in a strictly literal version, such as an interlinear, but not in a modern language version. In such cases, the other renderings "I have been" or "I was" are better" in the text. Even so, most translators who prefer "I have been" or "I was" at John 8.58 slip up in the English department. That includes the New World Translation. They had a chance to correct their 8.58 reading in their latest revision, but did not.

    Let's see why!

    First of all, many trinitarian advocates swear that "I am" is the only appropriate rendering. They claim that the Greek phrase is absolute, somehow indicating that the expression is another name for God, or that it indicates timeless existence. They love to indicate that the NWT is inconsistent in their translation of the Greek phrase. The NWT does render the Greek ego'eimi' as "I am" in most places, but not in John 8.58. This is surely "bias" on their part. Right? Not so.

    What the "I am" defenders don't tell you is that the construction of John 8.58 shows a grammatical difference to most other occurrences. The Greek clause of John 8.58 has a time element in the clause which places the beginning of the action in the past: "Before Abraham was born, I am." The "I am" Greek expression simply expresses existence from the past, as grammarian Stanley Porter indicated.

    When Jesus said, to name one instance, "I am the fine shepherd (John 10.11)," there is no time adjunct, such as "before," or "long ago" in the phrase. So the correct rendering is "I am." But if it did have a time expression pointing to the past, the translation would have to be adapted accordingly.

    To illustrate: John 15.27 shows Jesus saying in the Greek: "and you [plural] but are bearing witness, that from beginning with me you [plural] are." Notice the Greek has a time indicator in the statement: "from [the] beginning" which puts the action starting in the past to the present just as John 8.58 does. The Douay Version incorrectly says, "And you shall give testimony, because you are with me from the beginning." In good English you cannot use a present verb "you are" when there is a time element pointing to the past. The NIV wisely adapts it to the English idiom.

    The NIV correctly renders it: "And you also must testify, for you have been with me from the beginning." "From the beginning you are" is uncalled in John 15.27. It is poor English. Also, notice that the NIV reordered the "you have been" and "from the beginning" expressions in the sentence to conform to English idiom. So did the NWT and other versions as well. That is proper.

    Coming back to John 8.58, the NW translators were in the right track when they rendered, "...before Abraham came into existence, I have been," just as they did in John 15.27. They took into account the time indicator in the clause, and appropriately used an English perfect tense in the process. A Greek Grammar (Greek – An Intensive Course) states: “When [the present is] used with expressions denoting past time, the present is the equivalent of the English present progressive perfect: πάλαι τοτο ποιῶ [palai touto poiō]*. I have been doing this for a long time.” (Hardy Hansen & Gerald M. Quinn, New York, 1992. Page 731.) *Notice the literal reading, "I am doing this for a long time," rendered with the present perfect by the authors.

    Also, it should be mentioned at this point, that another way to tackle the Greek in John 8.58 is by using an imperfect like this: pre { font-family: "Times New Roman"; }p { margin-bottom: 0.08in; }a:link { }

    I already was before Abraham was born.”Worldwide English New Testament.
    Is the NWT John 8.58 rendering a perfect translation? No, they erred by following the Greek wording order instead of adapting it to English as they should have. 
    Is there anyone out there who translated correctly using the "I have been" expression reflecting proper English idiom?
    Yes, The Source New Testament (Dr. A. Nyland, Australia) got it right at John 8.58:
    		
    I have been in existence since before Abraham was born!”
    
    
    
    
  • Aroq
    Aroq

    Have you considered this same thing in John 6:20? The direct translation of Jesus statement is " I AM no be fearing"

  • bennyk
    bennyk

    In Johannes 9:9, the blind beggar identifies himself by saying " ego eimi." (I am he.)

    No one seems to feel that he thereby declares himself to be eternal, or claims to be God Almighty...


  • HowTheBibleWasCreated
    HowTheBibleWasCreated

    The translators of the NWT were well aware of this.... they produced the Kingdom Interlinier which proves John * :58 as 'i am'. but on the right hand coloumn the NWT lies.

    The Gospel of John makes Jesus the Logos and the light and thus part of YHWH....

  • Wonderment
    Wonderment

    Aroq: ‘Have you considered this same thing in John 6:20? The direct translation of Jesus statement is: " I am, not be you fearing.’

    In John 6.20, the "I am" statement in this verse is a simple self-identification before the frightened disciples who saw (in darkness and stormy weather) Jesus walking over the waters of Lake Galilee: "Jesus told them, "It's me. Don't be afraid!" (GOD'S WORD Translation)

  • Wonderment
    Wonderment

    HowTheBibleWasCreated: The translators of the NWT were well aware of this.... they produced the Kingdom Interlinear which proves John * :58 as 'i am'. but on the right hand column the NWT lies.’

    The New Greek-English Interlinear New Testament, by Brown and Comfort, and edited by J. D. Douglas warn their readers in this kind of work: “It is difficult to translate one language into another on a word-for-word basis because each language has its own syntax, grammatical constructions, and idioms that are difficult—if not impossible—to replicate literally in another language.”

    A translation that aims to be idiomatic, contemporary has to adapt. The translation on the right column aims to express in today's language what the Greek said 2,000 years ago. A Greek Grammar (Greek – An Intensive Course) states: “When [the present is] used with expressions denoting past time, the present is the equivalent of the English present progressive perfect: πάλαι τοτο ποιῶ [palai touto poiō]*. I have been doing this for a long time.” (Hardy Hansen & Gerald M. Quinn, New York, 1992. Page 731.) *Notice the literal reading, "I am doing this for a long time," rendered with the present perfect by the authors.

    These Greek experts say that a Greek present verb can be rendered with the English perfect tense when there is an expression of past time present as there is in John 8.58. No lying! No mischief!



  • megaboy
    megaboy

    He was saying that he was Yah, which was not the same person as YHWH. Yah translates to 'I AM', that's why they were going to stone him. Many hebrews thought Yah and YHWH were the same person only thinking the former was a shortening of the name. Obviously things were not kept in perfect condition through all of those captivities. This is also why there are many "gods", god is not a word which designates the rank, but more of the description of an influence (which is why demons were considered gods). If you read through the OT carefully, it is impossible for the trinity to exist without major contradictions. There was a God Moses was able to actually see (the Son) and a God that he could only see the backside of (which was the Father).

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat
    Unfortunately I can't read the opening post because it is obscured by an advert. Am I the only one? I reading on an iPad.
  • Wonderment
    Wonderment

    megaboy: "He was saying that he was Yah, which was not the same person as YHWH."

    Your personal conclusion is welcomed just as any other. But consider this:

    The book Fundamentals of New Testament Greek had this to say of the use of ego eimi in John 8.58:

    "[ eimi' ] can be used as the main verb of several types of sentences. For example, it is often used as a linking verb in which one thing is equated or linked with another. In the English sentence ‘He is an athlete,’ the person referred to its equated with being an athlete. For example: Mark 14:70 ... you are a Galilean.

    " Sometimes the verb is used on its own, as a verb of existence. Perhaps the best-known example of this is the following: John 8.58 [ ego'eimi' ] I am." (Page 72)

    I take this to mean that the authors are not assigning any mystical significance to the Greek phrase as others are tempted in doing in regards to Jesus' deity. It is simply expressing existence. In other words, if I understand then correctly, the meaning is: "I was alive before Abraham was born." (The New Testament in Plain English)

    Or: I already was before Abraham was born.”Worldwide English New Testament.

    Or, if you don't like the use of the imperfect in the above version and prefer using a present verb, the conclusion would be: "I am in existence since before Abraham was born.

    Or better yet, use the English present perfect as does The Source New Testament:

    I have been in existence since before Abraham was born!”

  • Wonderment
    Wonderment

    slimboyfat: "Unfortunately I can't read the opening post because it is obscured by an advert. Am I the only one?"

    No, I accidentally hit some keyboard button which spread the margins. Sorry!

    I sent you by "e-mail" the full message hoping it is correct now. Check your mailbox.

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