it has been mentioned before but since we have been discussing environmental issues on another thread, i thought it might be timely to discuss rev 11:18 which has recently become a popular text for those christians concerned about environmental threats of pollution and climate change.
is this passage being interpreted correctly?
did the writer somehow anticipate the modern environmental situation, or did he intend something more in keeping with the bible's general concerns of morality and sin?.
Matijevic: "About rev 11:18 διαφθείραι=aorist infinitive active, means past tense!"
Please recheck your favorite resource for this statement.
In .... infinitives... the aorist does not tell us the time at which the action happened." (Oxford Grammar of Classical Greek, p. 61. Bold letters added. )
Thus, the context must decide translation. The Greek-English Interlinear ESV New Testament gives the following gloss for διαφθείραι: "to destroy thoroughly."
new world translation - variantstentative translations below.
you native language experts can probably do better than me.
if so, help yourself.. matthew 24.3, english edition: “what will be the sign of... the conclusion of the system of things?”french, 1987: “quel sera le signe de… la conclusion du système de choses” (...the system of things)french revised: “quel sera le signe de… la période finale du monde?” (…the final period of the world)german revised: “und den abschluss des weltsystems erkennen?” (the conclusion of the world system)spanish revised: “qué señal habrá... de la conclusión del sistema?” (…conclusion of the system)matthew 24.45, "the faithful and discreet slave":italian revised: “lo schiavo fedele e saggio” = “the faithful and wise slave”portuguese revised: “o escravo fiel e prudente” = “the faithful and prudent slave”spanish revised, “el esclavo fiel y prudente” = “the faithful and prudent slave”matthew 25.46,(english edition), “cutting-off” contrasted with “everlasting life” in the same verse.
First, I want to thank Doug Mason for providing photocopies of the NWT Danish and Swedish editions where they read "for Babylon" at Jeremiah 29.10.
Secondly, I want to also thank Earnest for his research on differences between the WH and NA28 Greek Text editions, particularly in Matthew. I noticed most of these changes are not of doctrinal import.
Hence, it would be interesting to determine the actual differences between the WH, NA28 and the Received Text, which I suspect we will find more doctrinally related differences, or discrepancies between the use of Jesus, God, Lord, Christ, etc., throughout the New Testament.
new world translation - variantstentative translations below.
you native language experts can probably do better than me.
if so, help yourself.. matthew 24.3, english edition: “what will be the sign of... the conclusion of the system of things?”french, 1987: “quel sera le signe de… la conclusion du système de choses” (...the system of things)french revised: “quel sera le signe de… la période finale du monde?” (…the final period of the world)german revised: “und den abschluss des weltsystems erkennen?” (the conclusion of the world system)spanish revised: “qué señal habrá... de la conclusión del sistema?” (…conclusion of the system)matthew 24.45, "the faithful and discreet slave":italian revised: “lo schiavo fedele e saggio” = “the faithful and wise slave”portuguese revised: “o escravo fiel e prudente” = “the faithful and prudent slave”spanish revised, “el esclavo fiel y prudente” = “the faithful and prudent slave”matthew 25.46,(english edition), “cutting-off” contrasted with “everlasting life” in the same verse.
BluesBrother:
I recall hearing an audio from one of Ray Franz's associates , a Chris Sanches who had been involved in the original translation of The NWT into Spanish. He maintained that the [Foreword] contained "a lie", when it said this Bible has been translated from the original languages. In fact it was taken from the English NWT of the time.
new world translation - variantstentative translations below.
you native language experts can probably do better than me.
if so, help yourself.. matthew 24.3, english edition: “what will be the sign of... the conclusion of the system of things?”french, 1987: “quel sera le signe de… la conclusion du système de choses” (...the system of things)french revised: “quel sera le signe de… la période finale du monde?” (…the final period of the world)german revised: “und den abschluss des weltsystems erkennen?” (the conclusion of the world system)spanish revised: “qué señal habrá... de la conclusión del sistema?” (…conclusion of the system)matthew 24.45, "the faithful and discreet slave":italian revised: “lo schiavo fedele e saggio” = “the faithful and wise slave”portuguese revised: “o escravo fiel e prudente” = “the faithful and prudent slave”spanish revised, “el esclavo fiel y prudente” = “the faithful and prudent slave”matthew 25.46,(english edition), “cutting-off” contrasted with “everlasting life” in the same verse.
slimboyfat: I wonder if the other languages have followed (or preceded) English in getting rid of “impaled” and restoring “elders” instead of “older men”. Have they eliminated “mentally diseased” as well?
Mark 15.13, 1951 Edition, “Impale him!” > (Footnote: “Or, Fasten(ed) on a stake or pole.”)
2013 Edition: “To the stake with him!”
Modern Greek, 1993 & 2018: “Κρέμασέ τον στο ξύλο!” = “Hang him on the wood”
French, 1987: “Attache-le sur un poteau!” = “Fix [attach] him to a post”
French, 2018: “Au poteau!” = “To the pole [post]!”
German, 1986 & 2018: “An den Pfahl mit ihm!” = “To the stake with him!”
Italian, 1987 & 2017: “Al palo!” = “To the pole!”
Portuguese, 1986 & 2015: “Para a estaca com ele!” = “To the stake with him!”
Spanish, 1963 & 2019: “¡Al madero con él!” = “To the stake with him!”
1 Timothy 6.4, NWT 1951: “mentally diseased.” 2013 Edition: “obsessed.”
French, 2018: “passion maladive” = “unhealthy passion”
German, 1986: “geistig krank” = “mentally ill [deseased]”
German 2018: “besessen” = “obsessed”
Modern Greek, 1997: “ασθενεί διανοητικά” = “mentally ill [deseased]”
Modern Greek 2017: “εμμονή” = “obsessed”
Italian, 1987: “mentalmente malato” = “mentally ill”
Italian, 2017: “ossessionato” = “obsessed”
Portuguese, 1986: “mania” = “mania [craze, habit]”
Portuguese 2015: “obcecado” = “obsessed”
Spanish, 1963: “mentalmente enfermo” = “mentally diseased”
Spanish, 2019: “obsesionado” = “obsessed”
Acts 15.4, NWT 1951: “the older men [Greek, presbytéron].” 2013 Edition: “the elders.”
French, 1987 & 2018: “et les anciens” = “and the elders”
German, 1986: “und den älteren Männern” = “an the older men”
German, 2018: “und den Ältesten” = “and the elders”
Greek, 1997 & 2017: “και οι πρεσβύτεροι” = “and the elders”
Italian, 1987 & 2017: “gli anziani” = “the elders”
Portuguese, 1986 & 2015: “anciãos” = “the elders”
Spanish, 1963: “los hombres de mayor edad” = “the older men”
Spanish, 2019: “los ancianos” = “the elders”
the fact that there are pomi ex-jws who have been disfellowshiped or inactive for years who still live in constant fear of armageddon indicates that watchtower will manage to exist in one way or another for years, if not decades, to come.
watchtower, like all other religious cults, operate on the premise that "you can fool some of the people all of the time...and that's enough!
".
ScenicViewer:
The name of the book by Robert H. Countess: The
Jehovah's Witnesses' New Testament: A Critical Analysis of the New
World Translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures (2nd. ed. 1987, Presbyterian and Reformed Publishing Co.). This book is critical of the NWT. The discussion of the divine name is a chapter of the book or so.
new world translation - variantstentative translations below.
you native language experts can probably do better than me.
if so, help yourself.. matthew 24.3, english edition: “what will be the sign of... the conclusion of the system of things?”french, 1987: “quel sera le signe de… la conclusion du système de choses” (...the system of things)french revised: “quel sera le signe de… la période finale du monde?” (…the final period of the world)german revised: “und den abschluss des weltsystems erkennen?” (the conclusion of the world system)spanish revised: “qué señal habrá... de la conclusión del sistema?” (…conclusion of the system)matthew 24.45, "the faithful and discreet slave":italian revised: “lo schiavo fedele e saggio” = “the faithful and wise slave”portuguese revised: “o escravo fiel e prudente” = “the faithful and prudent slave”spanish revised, “el esclavo fiel y prudente” = “the faithful and prudent slave”matthew 25.46,(english edition), “cutting-off” contrasted with “everlasting life” in the same verse.
New World Translation - Variants
Tentative translations below. You native language experts can probably do better than me. If so, help yourself.
Matthew 24.3,
English Edition: “what will be the sign of... the conclusion of the system of things?”
French, 1987: “quel sera le signe de… la conclusion du système de choses” (...the system of things)
French Revised: “quel sera le signe de… la période finale du monde?” (…the final period of the world)
German Revised: “und den Abschluss des Weltsystems erkennen?” (the conclusion of the world system)
Spanish Revised: “qué señal habrá... de la conclusión del sistema?” (…conclusion of the system)
Matthew 24.45, "the faithful and discreet slave":
Italian Revised: “lo schiavo fedele e saggio” = “the faithful and wise slave”
Portuguese Revised: “o escravo fiel e prudente” = “the faithful and prudent slave”
Spanish Revised, “el esclavo fiel y prudente” = “the faithful and prudent slave”
Matthew 25.46,
(English Edition), “cutting-off” contrasted with “everlasting life” in the same verse.
(French Revised): “la mort éternelle” = “eternal death”
(Spanish Revised): “destrucción eterna” = “eternal destruction”
John 1.1,
French, 1987: “et la Parole était dieu” = “and the Word was god”
French, Revised: “et la Parole était un dieu” = “and the Word was a god”
Portuguese, 1986: “e a Palavra era [um] deus” = “and the Word was a god” (Brackets theirs.)
Portuguese Revised: “e a Palavra era um deus” = “and the Word was a god”
John 8.58, (I am: KJV; NIV, etc. NWT: "I have been")
French, 1987: “Avant qu'Abraham soit venu à l'existence, j´étais” (...I was)
French Revised: “avant qu’Abraham vienne à l’existence, j’ai été” (... I was, or … I,ve been, I have been)
Italian, 1967: “io sono stato” = “I have been”
Italian, 1987: “Prima che Abraamo venisse all'esistenza, io ero” (… I was, I have been)
Italian, 2017: “prima che Abraamo nascesse, io c’ero” = “I was, I was there”
Portuguese Revised: “Antes de Abraão vir à existência, eu já existia” (… I already existed)
Spanish Revised: “antes de que Abrahán naciera, yo ya existía” (… I already existed)
Revelation 3.14,
English Edition: “the beginning of the creation by God”
French Revised: “le commencement de la création de Dieu” = “the beginning of the creation of God”
German Revised: “der Anfang der Schöpfung Gottes” = “the beginning of the creation of God”
Italian Revised: “il principio della creazione di Dio” = “the beginning of the creation of God”
Portuguese Revised: “o princípio da criação de Deus” = “the beginning of the creation of God”
Spanish Revised: “el principio de la creación de Dios” = “the beginning of the creation of God”
the fact that there are pomi ex-jws who have been disfellowshiped or inactive for years who still live in constant fear of armageddon indicates that watchtower will manage to exist in one way or another for years, if not decades, to come.
watchtower, like all other religious cults, operate on the premise that "you can fool some of the people all of the time...and that's enough!
".
Could it be that the WT has secretly diverted some of its finances to survive as plan B or C? I mean, were not a couple of WT missionaries caught trying to enter Italy a couple of years violating some laws? What about the rumor that the WT was heavily involved in Argentina investing in real estate business?
slimboyfat, Where can I send you the photo-copies of Robert Countess' book on the divine name?
what if we could exchange one president from another country to yours?...
say trump for trudeau, trudeau for trump, trump in exchange for your respective european country, etc -- for a few years?
would you consider it a win or a loss for your country?.
What if we could exchange one president from another country to yours?... say Trump for Trudeau, Trudeau for Trump, Trump in exchange for your respective European country, etc -- for a few years? Would you consider it a win or a loss for your country?
why are for the most part brown-colored people held in detention centers?
where are the rest of illegal immigrants?i think the question is valid -- as one website noted: "the u.s. government does not maintain reliable demographics of who is in immigration detention..." (https://www.freedomforimmigrants.org/detention-statistics).
a canadian woman not too long ago said to me (spontaneously - i did not bring up the subject) the following words when she heard the live tv news broadcast, which dealt about the immigrants being held at dozens of detention centers in usa: "i am canadian, and i have been living here illegally for 29 years.
Why are for the most part brown-colored people held in detention centers? Where are the rest of illegal immigrants?
I think the question is valid -- as one website noted: "The U.S. government does not maintain reliable demographics of who is
in immigration detention..."
(https://www.freedomforimmigrants.org/detention-statistics)
A Canadian woman not too long ago said to me (spontaneously - I did not bring up the subject) the following words when she heard the live TV news broadcast, which dealt about the immigrants being held at dozens of detention centers in USA: "I am Canadian, and I have been living here ILLEGALLY for 29 years. In all those years, not once, have I been asked to show documentation of my immigration status. I really feel sorry for those Mexicans and Central Americans who are getting a different treatment." (End of quote)
And then just this week, a government official suggested (because of recent political rhetorics) that the "Liberty" message of the Statue of Liberty poem has taken on the meaning of "liberty and justice" for Europeans, or something to that effect.
So my question is: Since United States are getting new immigrants every day by the thousands from all over the world (via air, cargo ships, or other, besides the border entrance), what happens to all those people who stay here illegally? Where do they go. Do they round them up? If so, why do we see mostly brown people from south of the border in those Detention Centers (BTW, 71% are private-for profit institutions)?
For instance, what about those women who come here from Russia and Ukraine to give birth every day in USA (many overstay their visas)? Where do they put them? Does ICE goes after them? Where do they go? What am I missing here?
nwt: psalm 8:5 * hebrew: 2:7: “you made him a little lower than angels.” if men are called "godlike ones", according to jehovah's witnesses, how, then, are they a little lower than the angels also called the "godlike ones"psalm 82:6 “i myself have said, ‘you are gods*, and all of you are sons of the most high.
*or, “godlike ones.” heb., ʼelo·him′; gr., the·oi′; syr., daʼ·la·hin; lat., di′i; t, “like angels.”****nowhere in the hebrew bible are human beings referred to the word "elohim".
"godlike" in hebrew is termed "כמו אלוהים"
@ I_love_Jeff,
At Psalm 82.6, human judges are referred to as "gods (’ĕ·lō·hîm)." Psalm 82:7 according to THIS simile the gods mentioned in this chapter are IMMORTAL
I mentioned the HEBREW BIBLE not the New Testament. Human beings mentioned in the Hebrew Bible are not MADE INTO gods but ONLY AS REPRESENTATIVES.
Representatives VS created as gods are two different things thus Psalm 8:5 makes humans mere humans with godlike qualities NOT IMMORTAL like Psalm 82:7.
At Psalm 82.6, human judges are referred to as "gods (’ĕ·lō·hîm)." Psalm 82:7 according to THIS simile the gods mentioned in this chapter are IMMORTAL
I think you meant these gods (human judges) are mortal. No?
I mentioned the HEBREW BIBLE not the New Testament. Human beings mentioned in the Hebrew Bible are not MADE INTO gods but ONLY AS REPRESENTATIVES.
Yes, but, Ex. 7.1 says, "See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh." (KJV) So, in a biblical sense God made Moses a god before Pharaoh. True, as a his representative, but nevertheless referenced as "a god."
I think you missed the whole point, which is:
In the Bible, besides Jehovah and Jesus named "gods" of some sort, other individuals were also called "gods." This indicates that the term "god in Scripture goes beyond being used as only the description of almighty God." Satan is called "the god of this world." Therefore, rather than taking issue of whether a god is true, false, or mortal, like Evangelicals are fond of doing, and restricting the sense of "god" to the Supreme God, as Evangelicals tend to do, the Bible goes further by adding a few nuances as you yourself noted.The interpretation of these can be debated, if you will.
Including this one at 1 Kings 18.27 where Elijah said that Ba'al was "a god [Heb. elohim; Greek: theós]." Thus, the Bible supports the view that there are many [so-called] "gods" and "lords" in the world, not only one. (1 Cor. 8.5) In the end, Paul tells us in the next verse, that there is but one true universal God. Can we agree to that?
