"we are living in the final part of the last days, undoubtedly the final part of the final part of the last days, shortly before the last day of the last days"
Are we to apply the day-year principle to this?
Is a day just a long period of time as in Genesis Ch 1?
Could these days overlap?
Posts by LeeT
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34Can You Believe This Insanity From Lett!
by ZindagiNaMilegiDobaara incan you believe this gibberish coming out of their mouths now; specifically from the clown-horse's own mouth :.
"things unfolding around us are making clear that ...(wait for it).."we are living in the final part of the last days, undoubtedly the final part of the final part of the last days,shortly before the last day of the last days"!!!!!!!!!!!!.
i wonder what next...ummmmm...final part of the final part of the final part of the finalpart...(on a recurring loop), you get the idea!.
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LeeT
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8 Files Just Arrived!
by Atlantis in8 files arrived.
one video and 7 documents.. .
identity card.
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LeeT
Emergency Response Plan - quick, to the bunker.
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8 Files Just Arrived!
by Atlantis in8 files arrived.
one video and 7 documents.. .
identity card.
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LeeT
Safe Pest Control - disfellowship them.
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How do you feel about Social Media?
by caves ini personally hate it!
i've tried for years to find a way to enjoy it, but i do not.
i tried.. at the end of the day i feel its just people getting there ego stroked and miss-information.
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LeeT
I use Twitter as a News Feed and pretty much exclusively follow news organisations, think tanks and commentators I'm interested in, including those with view diametrically opposed to my own. I almost never Tweet. I consume the content of those who's opinion I value.
I know a research scientist who does a similar thing, following people in the field and he finds it gives him a heads up on what people are working on ahead of their research being published. He also engages in, erm, science literacy outreach work, otherwise known as arguing with Young Earth creationists, a calling from which he derives much pleasure.
I did use Facebook as a social platform, "friending" friends and family but found them much more boring online than in person so pretty much gave up on that side of it. I still use it for planning discussions on a closed group for the local Scouts group where I volunteer.
It isn't that social Media is junk in and of itself. It's that most people use it for junk. It can also be a treasure trove of interesting information and engaging material if you want it to be. If you prefer a Twitter spat, it's good for that too.
If you're posting stuff that could jeopardize your career prospects or ruin relationships if it was found out, do it anonymously and never drunk rant.
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What scripture or scriptures did the cult use to imply animals vegetarian?
by Crazyguy2 inwhen i was a kid they implied that all animals and humans were vegetarian before the flood but i don’t know the scriptures they used, anyone know?
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LeeT
Magnum
#2 - It's right and Ge 1:30 means that vegetation is the ultimate source of food for all creatures - not directly the source for all creatures.
*** g83 1/8 p. 28 From Our Readers ***I am profoundly disturbed by your article “The Design in Nature.” Surely, when Almighty God announced that ‘to every wild beast of the earth I have given all green vegetation for food’ he meant that he had provided green vegetation as the basis of the food chain.R. B., EnglandI found your article convincing as concerns the principle that design requires a designer. But on page 11 you make the statement that features of animals that are used for maiming and killing have evolved by adaptation to the new situation in Eden. Can this be said of the poison that some snakes and spiders use to kill their prey? What of other ingenious instruments of various kinds of predators. How can they exist if not by creation?D. K., GermanyWe did not claim that certain features evolved by adaptation, but that existing features were put to a different use from what was originally purposed. We do not believe it is possible to establish for a certainty how things were in the distant past by observing the present. Conditions have changed. But we do have a clear statement from the past, namely Genesis 1:29, 30: “And God went on to say: ‘Here I have given to you all vegetation bearing seed which is on the surface of the whole earth and every tree on which there is the fruit of a tree bearing seed. To you let it serve as food. And to every wild beast of the earth and to every flying creature of the heavens and to everything moving upon the earth and in which there is life as a soul I have given all green vegetation for food.’” This does not mean that vegetation was merely the ultimate basis for food supply through a chain of animal life. Obviously it was not the case with humans because later when they were to begin to get some nourishment from animal flesh they had to be given a special concession. (Genesis 9:3) Further, during the Flood of Noah’s day, eight humans and ‘flying creatures and all moving animals of the ground’ were obliged to live on vegetable matter exclusively for more than a year. (Genesis 6:17-21) And the fact that Isaiah 11:6-9 and 65:25 specifically state that former predators will be at peace with other animals, and the lion will eat straw like the bull, would seem to confirm that animals and humans were meant to be vegetation eaters.As for the many predators being suited for the chase and the kill, what about humans? They have shown an extremely efficient talent for attacking and killing their fellowman. Does that argue for humans’ being designed that way from the beginning? Admittedly, we cannot answer all questions that arise in this matter from what we can observe today, and the account in the Bible is quite brief. Yet, we believe that humankind and animal kind were originally designed to live at peace with one another and to get their nourishment from vegetation. That original purpose will be restored during the Messianic Kingdom. We will have to wait and see how those prophecies are fulfilled.—ED.
It is in the last bolded section in the quote above that they give themselves wiggle room to get out of the straightjacket.
If they're going to start making messy compromises with reality, they might end up accepting evolution. -
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What scripture or scriptures did the cult use to imply animals vegetarian?
by Crazyguy2 inwhen i was a kid they implied that all animals and humans were vegetarian before the flood but i don’t know the scriptures they used, anyone know?
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LeeT
I brought up this with an elderly JW carter today.
He has no problem with the notion that animals were vegetarian before the flood.
He concurred that coprolites have been correctly identified as fossilised turds.
He agrees that those coprolites which appear to contain bone fragments do indeed contain bone fragments and that this is clear evidence of carnivory.
He also agrees that those identified as being from dinosaurs were indeed from dinosaurs.
He recognizes that dinosaurs pooping bone fragments must, therefore, be post-flood and that Noah must have had dinosaurs on the ark.
He was familiar with the consensus that an asteriod impact pretty much saw off the last of the dinosaurs and this event coincided with a mass extinction event of other species too and saw no reason to object to this.
He didn't find anything puzzling in the idea that Jehovah should seek to preserve animals on board the Ark and would then sit back and let an asteroid cause most of them to go extinct.
He didn't worry at all that no Bible writer, nor any other ancient text mentions the disruption caused by this massive post-flood extinction event.
We were stood a little way from the cart but his wife was visibly shocked when she heard me say that "I find it odd that you believe there was a post-flood mass extinction event which killed off a huge proportion of plant and animal species, including the dinosaurs Noah had on the Ark and yet you're quite content that the society literature never explores this key event in human history or the Bible's silence on the matter."
Well, at least this JW is still prepared to speak to me. The most regular JW in town, Sister Battleaxe accused me of being a demon-possessed apostate and won't talk to me any more.
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My kids are watching Atheist Content on Youtube!
by Miriam ini was looking at my children's watch history on youtube when i saw that they were watching atheist content!!!
what should i do?
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LeeT
How do you expect them to come to a reasoned view on atheist positions if they don't hear those positions articulated by atheists? -
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Animals as vegetarians thread continued
by Crazyguy2 ini found out just last night that back in 2015 scientists discovered a piece of amber estimated to be over 15 million years old.
inside the amber was a flea, very similar to the size and kind that attack and eat our blood today.
whats even more astonishing is in the mouth they found bacteria that has the same make up as bubonic plague.
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LeeT
I`m just curious as to why the person gave me a dislike and what their reason was.?
I've given you a couple of likes to make up for it.
You deserve them, I must have read quite a pile of your posts over the years.
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Animals as vegetarians thread continued
by Crazyguy2 ini found out just last night that back in 2015 scientists discovered a piece of amber estimated to be over 15 million years old.
inside the amber was a flea, very similar to the size and kind that attack and eat our blood today.
whats even more astonishing is in the mouth they found bacteria that has the same make up as bubonic plague.
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LeeT
To add another twist to the tale, if the JW's wish to hold to the view that animals only started eating meat after the flood, since coprolites containing bones show that non-avian dinosaurs (and other now extinct species) must have survived the flood and been on the ark, these non-avian dinosaurs must have gone extinct after the flood.
Most people associate the Chicxulub asteroid impact crater associated with the global deposition of a thin iridium layer at the K-T (K-Pg) boundary, perhaps also associated with increased volcanic activity at the time as the event that sealed their fate. At any rate, this was certainly more recent than the first signs of meat eating. This asteroid impact must have been post-flood too.
We're left with a God who goes to great lengths to kill all mankind except for the eight people on the ark but save the animals in the process. Then, shortly afterwards, sits back and permits an asteroid to cause a mass extinction event (some estimates are for the extinction of 75% of all plant and animal species). Somehow this seems to have gone uncommented on by the post-flood authors of the Bible.
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Animals as vegetarians thread continued
by Crazyguy2 ini found out just last night that back in 2015 scientists discovered a piece of amber estimated to be over 15 million years old.
inside the amber was a flea, very similar to the size and kind that attack and eat our blood today.
whats even more astonishing is in the mouth they found bacteria that has the same make up as bubonic plague.
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LeeT
There are other related difficulties, whilst acknowledging the Earth and universe could have pre-existed the first creative day. My favourites relate to how they go about explaining flood geology and the rapid rate of speciation needed to get from created "kinds" to those around at the time of the flood in 1656 years and from "flood kinds" to our current biodiversity and biogeography in 4390 years (2370 BCE flood date to present).
As late as 1987 they were suggesting each of these creative days was just 7,000 years long.
*** w87 1/1 p. 30 Questions From Readers ***
“Second, a study of the fulfillment of Bible prophecy and of our location in the stream of time strongly indicate that each of the creative days (Genesis, chapter 1) is 7,000 years long. It is understood that Christ’s reign of a thousand years will bring to a close God’s 7,000-year ‘rest day,’ the last ‘day’ of the creative week. (Revelation 20:6; Genesis 2:2, 3) Based on this reasoning, the entire creative week would be 49,000 years long.”
I'm not quite sure why they've not wholly abandoned this antiscientific nonsense a long time ago. It is a long standing belief which you'll find at least as far back as Rutherford Photodrama of Creation. That means they pretty much have to reject radiometric dating and other dating techniques which arrive at the conclusion that life has been around for considerably longer than they suggest.
More recent articles do seem to say things like the creation process could have been "many tens of thousands of years" or something similar, but they never seem to stretch to hundreds of millions of years.
The next problem lies in this "animals were vegetarian before the flood" nonsense. Here's a Questions from Readers discussing how to cram all those animals into the Ark.
*** w61 12/15 p. 767 Questions From Readers ***
"All those creatures, human and subhuman, were able to live without flesh for a whole year inside the ark. Why could not every one of those living creatures live without flesh during 1,656 years prior to the Flood, or back to the time when God specified to Adam and Eve in Eden what he had given to earthly creatures as food? And if they could subsist that way during the first 1,656 years of man’s existence, why can they not return to that way of life and keep living that way during the thousand-year reign of Jesus Christ and then for eternity?"
That explanation leaves open the possibility that animals might have eaten flesh before Jehovah handed Adam and Eve the keys to Eden and they only became vegetarian one humans were around. That idea is scuppered in this later Questions from Readers piece.
*** g83 1/8 p. 28 From Our Readers ***
"We did not claim that certain features evolved by adaptation, but that existing features were put to a different use from what was originally purposed. We do not believe it is possible to establish for a certainty how things were in the distant past by observing the present. Conditions have changed. But we do have a clear statement from the past, namely Genesis 1:29, 30: “And God went on to say: ‘Here I have given to you all vegetation bearing seed which is on the surface of the whole earth and every tree on which there is the fruit of a tree bearing seed. To you let it serve as food. And to every wild beast of the earth and to every flying creature of the heavens and to everything moving upon the earth and in which there is life as a soul I have given all green vegetation for food.’” This does not mean that vegetation was merely the ultimate basis for food supply through a chain of animal life. Obviously it was not the case with humans because later when they were to begin to get some nourishment from animal flesh they had to be given a special concession. (Genesis 9:3) Further, during the Flood of Noah’s day, eight humans and ‘flying creatures and all moving animals of the ground’ were obliged to live on vegetable matter exclusively for more than a year. (Genesis 6:17-21) And the fact that Isaiah 11:6-9 and 65:25 specifically state that former predators will be at peace with other animals, and the lion will eat straw like the bull, would seem to confirm that animals and humans were meant to be vegetation eaters."
I guess it is possible to explain away a T-Rex tooth embedded in the tail of a hadrosaur as occurring as a result of a disagreement about which animal was going to eat those tasty leaves rather than pointing conclusively to a desire for flesh.
See here
T. rex Tooth Crown Found Embedded in an Edmontosaurus Tail – Predatory Behaviour?
Coprolites pose a different problem. Coprolites are fossilised turds. A coprolite containing bone fragments would indicate carnivory, whether from scavenging or from hunting, and therefore must, according to the JW's be post flood. The problem is that these are not that uncommon, and go back over 200m years (by conventional dates).
The 210-million-year-old Smok was crushing bones like a hyena
The obvious conclusion is that Noah must have taken dinosaurs and other predators which subsequently became extinct onto the ark.
I'm not aware of any attempt by the Org to propose just where scientists are getting their data wrong when they come up with the crazy notion that animals might have eaten flesh more than 4400 years ago. That such a notion contradicts their interpretation of the Bible does not mean it didn't happen. Rather than equip themselves with PhD's in related disciplines and go out and do some serious lab and field work and show how their map of time is right they prefer to carp from the sidelines and make disparaging remarks about people who actually do take the time to understand their field.
So to the "You see, when the water canopy above the earth came down during Noah's flood, it changed the amount of radiation reaching the earth's surface and thus all dating systems which produce an age more than 4000 years ago are flawed" argument.
Do they ever explain what happened to all the heat produced by collapsing a few hundred million years worth of radioactive decay into just the last few thousand years? Why wasn't Noah boiled alive bobbing about in his coffin on a boiling sea?
Ask a JW where the boundary layer which marks Noah's flood is or what features of your local geography are a result of the flood. I've not met one who has seriously paused to consider the consequences on their environment their beliefs being true would have.