Posts by LeeT

62

Evolution - A Conversation with Alex Williams

by cofty in

alex - thank you for your offer to have a conversation about evolution.. i accept the scientific evidence that all life - including humans - evolved from a common ancestor through unguided evolution over millions of years.

this isn't even a controversial position in the scientific community.. the evidence rests on the data from many interconnected fields including paleontology, comparative anatomy, geology and especially genetics.

it is no exaggeration to say that the evidence for your own non-human ancestry is contained in every cell in your body.. it is my experience that jws are generally quite ignorant (not in a pejorative sense) of the scientific case.

LeeT

Cofty

"If you have any other examples of misleading references in Origins of Life I would love to see them too."

You might try downloading this review of the 5 Questions and Was Life Created brochures.
http://www.mediafire.com/file/3wil5bzi59b2l8f/Weighed1.1.pdf/file
It's pretty lengthy (40 pages) but also serves as a good intro to evolutionary theory although the referencing could have been better.
If you just want to pick out the selective quote-mining the text is searchable.

I'm fed up of explaining to JW's that branching descent means that statements like "but we see that dogs always produce dogs" are correct and exactly what evolutionary theory says we should expect. They seem to have some odd straw man caricature to demolish and never seem to bother to learn much about the theory they oppose.

154

Need Help: My Correspondence with the Headquarters

by Lobsto in

a month ago i sent a letter to the us branch about 607. my purpose for sending it was because i wanted to show to my parents through the letters the truth behind the date system.

two days ago, i received a response from them.

i think this is gonna be the first of many.

LeeT

Scholar

A.1. Babylon was a World Power for 68 years 607 BCE-539 BCE

What particular events in 607 BCE do you think marked this transformation to World Power Status? Do you think conquering Judah, a fairly insignificant power in a strategically important region marked a tipping point whereas defeating Assyria didn't?

154

Need Help: My Correspondence with the Headquarters

by Lobsto in

a month ago i sent a letter to the us branch about 607. my purpose for sending it was because i wanted to show to my parents through the letters the truth behind the date system.

two days ago, i received a response from them.

i think this is gonna be the first of many.

LeeT

Scholar

Why did you not get your Certificate?

I was doing another degree at the time and didn't want the added pressure of deadlines or the added expense.

one must make a choice between the Biblical history of the Period and the contemporary documents

I see you as choosing a particular interpretation of Biblical history. Others seem to have little difficulty in arriving an interpretation which conforms to their understandings of both the Bible and history or even to arrive at an inconclusive conclusion.

How would you go about testing whether a particular interpretation of historically related Biblical text is accurate? Surely you'd expect it to be in conformity with well arrested secular evidence or have a compelling case for why the secular record is in error.

You don't need to abandon inerrancy to abandon an interpretation.

Personally, I'm an atheist and quite happy with the idea that there are errors, intentional hyperbole, rounded figures and that different writers may have had differing opinions and written from their own perspective. I'd like to make sense of it all, but I'm not uncomfortable with the idea that some of the 'rough' is a feature and needn't be smoothed away to create a gloss finish.
Eg I find it quite OK for Jonsson to conclude that he isn't certain of a start date, that there are merits and demerits to alternative positions.

What must be explained is the silence of the Babylonian records pertaining to the missing seven-year reign of Nebuchadnezzer

British Museum, No. BM 34113 (sp 213), and was published by A. K. Grayson in Babylonian historical-literary texts, 1975 might be what you want but it's hardly conclusive of anything.

2 [Nebu]chadnezzar considered
3 His life appeared of no value to [him, ......]
5 And (the) Babylon(ian) speaks bad counsel to Evil-merodach [....]
6 Then he gives an entirely different order but [. . .]
7 He does not heed the word from his lips, the cour[tier(s) - - -]
11 He does not show love to son and daughter [. . .]
12 ... family and clan do not exist [. . .]
14 His attention was not directed towards promoting the welfare of Esagil [and Babylon]
16 He prays to the lord of lords, he raised [his hands (in supplication) (. . .)]
17 He weeps bitterly to Marduk, the g[reat] gods [......]
18 His prayers go forth to [......]

http://a-laymans-journey.blogspot.com/2009/12/text-of-bm34113-british-museum-no-bm.html

What if the silence is because nothing much actually happened to be recorded or it a misremembering of Nabonidus' long stay in Teima? People doing business would still have recorded the dates of their dealings and if the madness was real. If seven years of madness exist, they're already included amongst the 43 years of Nebuchadnezzar II's rule.

the omission of any mention of the seventy years hegemony over Judah and the other serving nations roundabout

Yes, there doesn't appear to be much bombast and the chronicle records seem sparse.

the length of the Neo-Babylonian Period is problematic and far from settled as it has not accounted for the twenty-year Gap proved by the 70 years of Babylonian domination

I was a bit lazy above in using 66 and 86 year periods. WT agrees that Nebuchadnezzar II reigned for 43 years and appear to give Nabonidus 16 years so the window for the 20 missing years can be narrowed substantially. Is it fair to say the WT believes the 20 years must be inserted somewhere between the 43rd of Nebuchadnezzar II and the 1st of Nabonidus?

154

Need Help: My Correspondence with the Headquarters

by Lobsto in

a month ago i sent a letter to the us branch about 607. my purpose for sending it was because i wanted to show to my parents through the letters the truth behind the date system.

two days ago, i received a response from them.

i think this is gonna be the first of many.

LeeT

Scholar,

I too did the course a couple of years ago, though uncertificated and without purchasing the book. I'm an impoverished cheapskate. I still read all the recommended readings I could find and more besides plus the video transcripts. I was indeed enjoyable.
If you still have copies I'd love to read your mini essays arguing for the complete depopulation of the land for a period of 70 years, an idea that flies in the face of one of the central themes of the course.

"Do any of these texts shed any light on the 70 years"
I've not read many of the several thousand texts listed here. This doesn't look like an especially useful list to use unless you want to exhaustively read up on a particular year for clues and need all the archive numbers. There seem to be better ways of working. I'm yet to figure out how to navigate my way to specific translations and find many of the museum and archive cataloguing systems somewhat confusing.

But, yes, in outline the list does shed light on the 70 years. Prior to this the best list of texts I had was Boscowan or Pinches (I forget who, one of the late Victorians who worked on the Egibi Archive) which had a much, much shorter list of something over 100 texts ordered by date. That in itself made explaining the lack of tablets of the missing Kings the JW's assert must have existed incredibly unlikely to have been a random occurrence. This list puts a stake through the heart of the JW case, nail guns the coffin lid shut, encases it in titanium and blasts it into space.

625 BCE (WT date for Neb yr 0) -539 BCE = 86 years of history according to the WT scholars.

Total number of dated texts from the reign of Nebuchadnezzar II: 2826
Total number of dated texts from the reign of Amel-Marduk: 167
Total number of dated texts from the reign of Neriglissar: 249
Total number of dated texts from the reign of Labashi-Marduk: 12
Total number of dated texts from the reign of Nabonid: 3910

Covering 66 years of known reigns.

Total number of dated texts from the reigns of known Kings in period = 7164
Total no of dates texts from unknown Kings the WT asserts must have reigned = 0

If the WT is right and these texts are distributed randomly throughout the 86 year timespan they claim they cover, what are the chances of having 20 years with no hits out of a sample size of 7164?

Please check my maths.

No of combinations for choosing 66 "hit years" from 86 = 18,293,741,700,978,245,355
https://www.calculator.net/permutation-and-combination-calculator.html?cnv=86&crv=66&x=24&y=13
For each combination, the chance of randomly obtaining one of the 66 'hit' years in an 86 year timeline = 66/86

For 7164 tries the chances of them all being 'hit years' = 18,293,741,700,978,245,355 * (66/86)^7164
= 5.35 * 10^-805
That's a pobability with over 800 zeros before the decimal point.

Conclusion. To assert that tablets from the missing years "might just turn up on a dig" is laughable at this point.

So "do any of these texts shed any light on the 70 years?"
Yes, none of them are 'missing years' between the 1st of Nebuchadnezzar II and the last of Nabonidus.

154

Need Help: My Correspondence with the Headquarters

by Lobsto in

a month ago i sent a letter to the us branch about 607. my purpose for sending it was because i wanted to show to my parents through the letters the truth behind the date system.

two days ago, i received a response from them.

i think this is gonna be the first of many.

LeeT

Live life dangerously.
Incur the wrath of Tony Morris.
Do a short Uni course for free.
Undermine your confidence in Jehovah's organisation.
Study "The Fall and Rise of Jerusalem" with Oded Lipschits.

https://www.coursera.org/learn/jerusalem

154

Need Help: My Correspondence with the Headquarters

by Lobsto in

a month ago i sent a letter to the us branch about 607. my purpose for sending it was because i wanted to show to my parents through the letters the truth behind the date system.

two days ago, i received a response from them.

i think this is gonna be the first of many.

LeeT

This was referenced in the response letter.
Chronological List of Texts From the First Millenium B.C. Babylonia, by Janos Everling

I've dug up the .pdf and it's brilliant.
http://okor.btk.pte.hu/sites/okor.btk.pte.hu/files/files/SEAL/sea-l_3_jeverling_materials_vol1.pdf
Scroll to Page 24 where the Neo-Babylonian texts start. Note the sheer quantity of texts in each year of the conventional secular chronology. Where are all the texts from the 20 years the Society incorporates into its chronology? They're not there, there are none, these years don't exist.

12

1986--2019-Examining The Scriptures Daily!

by Atlantis in

all are bookmarked and searchable.. .. 1986--1990. https://we.tl/t-sqgt9exh5k .

.. 1991--2000. https://we.tl/t-qzbfbiacq8.

.. 2001--2010. https://we.tl/t-yaw2lety01.

LeeT

Thanks.

32

The pronunciation of the Tetragrammaton according to Gérard Gertoux

by Narkissos in

jw
friends

some time ago i stumbled across a book by french author gerard gertoux, about the pronunciation of the tetragrammaton.

the book was also published in english (cf.

the author's site at http://gertoux.online.fr/divinename/) .

LeeT

I found this thread after becoming suspicious about this paper where Gertoux supports a 475 BCE date for the ascension of Artaxerxes in 475 BCE (the JW date) rather than the more conventional 465 BCE.

https://www.academia.edu/2421036/Dating_the_reigns_of_Xerxes_and_Artaxerxes

My hunch was that he is a JW and this thread pretty much confirms it.

23

Incomplete List of Reasons or Ways to Die in the Bible

by ILoveTTATT2 in

i´ve come up with a partial list (i am only in 1 kings) of the many reasons and ways to die in the bible.maybe, when i am in revelation, i am going to share the full list.

how many do you think i´ll end up having??

number.

LeeT

It might be worth cross checking with Steve Wells "Drunk with Blood" which catalogues all the deaths meted out or sanctioned by Jehovah, along with the 10 performed by Satan.

Drunk With Blood Gods Killings In The Bible - Steve Wells.pdf

23

Confronting Parents About 607 vs 587

by breezy in

just thought i would update you guys since my 1st post last week.i haven't been to the meeting for about 2 weeks now, and maybe have like 1 or 2 hours of service combined within the past 2-3 months.

i obviously get the love bombing from relatives when they don't see you at the hall for a while.

" we missed you at the meeting last week.

LeeT

Well I'm 3 years late to this party but thought I'd add this as the simplest method I've found for arriving at 587 BCE using only WT literature.

Zechariah 1:1 NWT

"In the eighth month in the second year of Da·riʹus, the word of Jehovah came to the prophet Zech·a·riʹah son of Ber·e·chiʹah son of Idʹdo, saying: ..."

it-2 p. 1225 Zechariah, Book of

"Since it was in the “eighth month in the second year of Darius” (October/November 520 B.C.E.) that “the word of Jehovah occurred to Zechariah” (1:1), the book covers a period of at least two years."

Zech 1:7,12 NWT

"7 On the 24th day of the 11th month, that is, the month of She'bat, in the second year of Da·ri'us, the word of Jehovah came to the prophet Zech·a·ri'ah son of Ber·e·chi'ah son of Id'do, ... 12 So the angel of Jehovah said: “O Jehovah of armies, how long will you withhold your mercy from Jerusalem and the cities of Judah, with whom you have been indignant these 70 years?"

If the “eighth month in the second year of Darius” is (October/November 520 B.C.E.), the "11th month, that is, the month of She'bat, in the second year of Da·ri'us" is 3 months later in Jan/Feb 519 BCE.

At that point Jehovah had been "indignant these 70 years" with "the cities of Judah." So Jehovah became indignant in around Jan/Feb 589 BCE, just when secular chronology places the start of siege of Jerusalem.

it-1 p. 415 Captivity

"The final capture of Jerusalem by Nebuchadnezzar was completed in 607 B.C.E., after an 18-month siege. (2Ki 25:1-4)."

So if the siege started in Jan/Feb 589 BCE and lasted 18 months, it ended in July/Aug 587.

Note that this places the start of 70 years at the beginning of the siege and ends it when God tells Zechariah : ‘“I will return to Jerusalem with mercy, and my own house will be built in her,” (Zech 1:16).