Posts by LeeT

22

What scripture or scriptures did the cult use to imply animals vegetarian?

by Crazyguy2 in

when i was a kid they implied that all animals and humans were vegetarian before the flood but i don’t know the scriptures they used, anyone know?

.

LeeT

Magnum

#2 - It's right and Ge 1:30 means that vegetation is the ultimate source of food for all creatures - not directly the source for all creatures.

*** g83 1/8 p. 28 From Our Readers ***I am profoundly disturbed by your article “The Design in Nature.” Surely, when Almighty God announced that ‘to every wild beast of the earth I have given all green vegetation for food’ he meant that he had provided green vegetation as the basis of the food chain.R. B., EnglandI found your article convincing as concerns the principle that design requires a designer. But on page 11 you make the statement that features of animals that are used for maiming and killing have evolved by adaptation to the new situation in Eden. Can this be said of the poison that some snakes and spiders use to kill their prey? What of other ingenious instruments of various kinds of predators. How can they exist if not by creation?D. K., GermanyWe did not claim that certain features evolved by adaptation, but that existing features were put to a different use from what was originally purposed. We do not believe it is possible to establish for a certainty how things were in the distant past by observing the present. Conditions have changed. But we do have a clear statement from the past, namely Genesis 1:29, 30: “And God went on to say: ‘Here I have given to you all vegetation bearing seed which is on the surface of the whole earth and every tree on which there is the fruit of a tree bearing seed. To you let it serve as food. And to every wild beast of the earth and to every flying creature of the heavens and to everything moving upon the earth and in which there is life as a soul I have given all green vegetation for food.’” This does not mean that vegetation was merely the ultimate basis for food supply through a chain of animal life. Obviously it was not the case with humans because later when they were to begin to get some nourishment from animal flesh they had to be given a special concession. (Genesis 9:3) Further, during the Flood of Noah’s day, eight humans and ‘flying creatures and all moving animals of the ground’ were obliged to live on vegetable matter exclusively for more than a year. (Genesis 6:17-21) And the fact that Isaiah 11:6-9 and 65:25 specifically state that former predators will be at peace with other animals, and the lion will eat straw like the bull, would seem to confirm that animals and humans were meant to be vegetation eaters.As for the many predators being suited for the chase and the kill, what about humans? They have shown an extremely efficient talent for attacking and killing their fellowman. Does that argue for humans’ being designed that way from the beginning? Admittedly, we cannot answer all questions that arise in this matter from what we can observe today, and the account in the Bible is quite brief. Yet, we believe that humankind and animal kind were originally designed to live at peace with one another and to get their nourishment from vegetation. That original purpose will be restored during the Messianic Kingdom. We will have to wait and see how those prophecies are fulfilled.—ED.

It is in the last bolded section in the quote above that they give themselves wiggle room to get out of the straightjacket.
If they're going to start making messy compromises with reality, they might end up accepting evolution.

22

What scripture or scriptures did the cult use to imply animals vegetarian?

by Crazyguy2 in

when i was a kid they implied that all animals and humans were vegetarian before the flood but i don’t know the scriptures they used, anyone know?

.

LeeT

I brought up this with an elderly JW carter today.

He has no problem with the notion that animals were vegetarian before the flood.

He concurred that coprolites have been correctly identified as fossilised turds.

He agrees that those coprolites which appear to contain bone fragments do indeed contain bone fragments and that this is clear evidence of carnivory.

He also agrees that those identified as being from dinosaurs were indeed from dinosaurs.

He recognizes that dinosaurs pooping bone fragments must, therefore, be post-flood and that Noah must have had dinosaurs on the ark.

He was familiar with the consensus that an asteriod impact pretty much saw off the last of the dinosaurs and this event coincided with a mass extinction event of other species too and saw no reason to object to this.

He didn't find anything puzzling in the idea that Jehovah should seek to preserve animals on board the Ark and would then sit back and let an asteroid cause most of them to go extinct.

He didn't worry at all that no Bible writer, nor any other ancient text mentions the disruption caused by this massive post-flood extinction event.

We were stood a little way from the cart but his wife was visibly shocked when she heard me say that "I find it odd that you believe there was a post-flood mass extinction event which killed off a huge proportion of plant and animal species, including the dinosaurs Noah had on the Ark and yet you're quite content that the society literature never explores this key event in human history or the Bible's silence on the matter."

Well, at least this JW is still prepared to speak to me. The most regular JW in town, Sister Battleaxe accused me of being a demon-possessed apostate and won't talk to me any more.

23

My kids are watching Atheist Content on Youtube!

by Miriam in

i was looking at my children's watch history on youtube when i saw that they were watching atheist content!!!

what should i do?

.

LeeT

How do you expect them to come to a reasoned view on atheist positions if they don't hear those positions articulated by atheists?

16

Animals as vegetarians thread continued

by Crazyguy2 in

i found out just last night that back in 2015 scientists discovered a piece of amber estimated to be over 15 million years old.

inside the amber was a flea, very similar to the size and kind that attack and eat our blood today.

whats even more astonishing is in the mouth they found bacteria that has the same make up as bubonic plague.

LeeT

I`m just curious as to why the person gave me a dislike and what their reason was.?

I've given you a couple of likes to make up for it.

You deserve them, I must have read quite a pile of your posts over the years.

16

Animals as vegetarians thread continued

by Crazyguy2 in

i found out just last night that back in 2015 scientists discovered a piece of amber estimated to be over 15 million years old.

inside the amber was a flea, very similar to the size and kind that attack and eat our blood today.

whats even more astonishing is in the mouth they found bacteria that has the same make up as bubonic plague.

LeeT

To add another twist to the tale, if the JW's wish to hold to the view that animals only started eating meat after the flood, since coprolites containing bones show that non-avian dinosaurs (and other now extinct species) must have survived the flood and been on the ark, these non-avian dinosaurs must have gone extinct after the flood.

Most people associate the Chicxulub asteroid impact crater associated with the global deposition of a thin iridium layer at the K-T (K-Pg) boundary, perhaps also associated with increased volcanic activity at the time as the event that sealed their fate. At any rate, this was certainly more recent than the first signs of meat eating. This asteroid impact must have been post-flood too.

We're left with a God who goes to great lengths to kill all mankind except for the eight people on the ark but save the animals in the process. Then, shortly afterwards, sits back and permits an asteroid to cause a mass extinction event (some estimates are for the extinction of 75% of all plant and animal species). Somehow this seems to have gone uncommented on by the post-flood authors of the Bible.

16

Animals as vegetarians thread continued

by Crazyguy2 in

i found out just last night that back in 2015 scientists discovered a piece of amber estimated to be over 15 million years old.

inside the amber was a flea, very similar to the size and kind that attack and eat our blood today.

whats even more astonishing is in the mouth they found bacteria that has the same make up as bubonic plague.

LeeT

There are other related difficulties, whilst acknowledging the Earth and universe could have pre-existed the first creative day. My favourites relate to how they go about explaining flood geology and the rapid rate of speciation needed to get from created "kinds" to those around at the time of the flood in 1656 years and from "flood kinds" to our current biodiversity and biogeography in 4390 years (2370 BCE flood date to present).

As late as 1987 they were suggesting each of these creative days was just 7,000 years long.

*** w87 1/1 p. 30 Questions From Readers ***

“Second, a study of the fulfillment of Bible prophecy and of our location in the stream of time strongly indicate that each of the creative days (Genesis, chapter 1) is 7,000 years long. It is understood that Christ’s reign of a thousand years will bring to a close God’s 7,000-year ‘rest day,’ the last ‘day’ of the creative week. (Revelation 20:6; Genesis 2:2, 3) Based on this reasoning, the entire creative week would be 49,000 years long.”

I'm not quite sure why they've not wholly abandoned this antiscientific nonsense a long time ago. It is a long standing belief which you'll find at least as far back as Rutherford Photodrama of Creation. That means they pretty much have to reject radiometric dating and other dating techniques which arrive at the conclusion that life has been around for considerably longer than they suggest.

More recent articles do seem to say things like the creation process could have been "many tens of thousands of years" or something similar, but they never seem to stretch to hundreds of millions of years.

The next problem lies in this "animals were vegetarian before the flood" nonsense. Here's a Questions from Readers discussing how to cram all those animals into the Ark.

*** w61 12/15 p. 767 Questions From Readers ***

"All those creatures, human and subhuman, were able to live without flesh for a whole year inside the ark. Why could not every one of those living creatures live without flesh during 1,656 years prior to the Flood, or back to the time when God specified to Adam and Eve in Eden what he had given to earthly creatures as food? And if they could subsist that way during the first 1,656 years of man’s existence, why can they not return to that way of life and keep living that way during the thousand-year reign of Jesus Christ and then for eternity?"

That explanation leaves open the possibility that animals might have eaten flesh before Jehovah handed Adam and Eve the keys to Eden and they only became vegetarian one humans were around. That idea is scuppered in this later Questions from Readers piece.

*** g83 1/8 p. 28 From Our Readers ***

"We did not claim that certain features evolved by adaptation, but that existing features were put to a different use from what was originally purposed. We do not believe it is possible to establish for a certainty how things were in the distant past by observing the present. Conditions have changed. But we do have a clear statement from the past, namely Genesis 1:29, 30: “And God went on to say: ‘Here I have given to you all vegetation bearing seed which is on the surface of the whole earth and every tree on which there is the fruit of a tree bearing seed. To you let it serve as food. And to every wild beast of the earth and to every flying creature of the heavens and to everything moving upon the earth and in which there is life as a soul I have given all green vegetation for food.’” This does not mean that vegetation was merely the ultimate basis for food supply through a chain of animal life. Obviously it was not the case with humans because later when they were to begin to get some nourishment from animal flesh they had to be given a special concession. (Genesis 9:3) Further, during the Flood of Noah’s day, eight humans and ‘flying creatures and all moving animals of the ground’ were obliged to live on vegetable matter exclusively for more than a year. (Genesis 6:17-21) And the fact that Isaiah 11:6-9 and 65:25 specifically state that former predators will be at peace with other animals, and the lion will eat straw like the bull, would seem to confirm that animals and humans were meant to be vegetation eaters."

I guess it is possible to explain away a T-Rex tooth embedded in the tail of a hadrosaur as occurring as a result of a disagreement about which animal was going to eat those tasty leaves rather than pointing conclusively to a desire for flesh.

See here

T. rex Tooth Crown Found Embedded in an Edmontosaurus Tail – Predatory Behaviour?

Coprolites pose a different problem. Coprolites are fossilised turds. A coprolite containing bone fragments would indicate carnivory, whether from scavenging or from hunting, and therefore must, according to the JW's be post flood. The problem is that these are not that uncommon, and go back over 200m years (by conventional dates).

The 210-million-year-old Smok was crushing bones like a hyena

The obvious conclusion is that Noah must have taken dinosaurs and other predators which subsequently became extinct onto the ark.

I'm not aware of any attempt by the Org to propose just where scientists are getting their data wrong when they come up with the crazy notion that animals might have eaten flesh more than 4400 years ago. That such a notion contradicts their interpretation of the Bible does not mean it didn't happen. Rather than equip themselves with PhD's in related disciplines and go out and do some serious lab and field work and show how their map of time is right they prefer to carp from the sidelines and make disparaging remarks about people who actually do take the time to understand their field.

So to the "You see, when the water canopy above the earth came down during Noah's flood, it changed the amount of radiation reaching the earth's surface and thus all dating systems which produce an age more than 4000 years ago are flawed" argument.

Do they ever explain what happened to all the heat produced by collapsing a few hundred million years worth of radioactive decay into just the last few thousand years? Why wasn't Noah boiled alive bobbing about in his coffin on a boiling sea?

Ask a JW where the boundary layer which marks Noah's flood is or what features of your local geography are a result of the flood. I've not met one who has seriously paused to consider the consequences on their environment their beliefs being true would have.

12

Richness of personality seems to work against spiritual-mindedness,

by snugglebunny in

are you bland enough?

just incredible imho.

wt 63, 2/15.

LeeT

"It also appears that inherited qualities have no small bearing on the extent to which we permit the holy spirit to have a free flow in our lives or tend to obstruct its activity."

Great, so Jehovah designed some people to be less receptive to heeding the advice of his chosen end times Organisation than others and will end up punishing those who didn't overcome their design flaws at Armageddon.

What a loving spiritual arrangement.

10

Quote Misquote Misleading

by ZindagiNaMilegiDobaara in

jw
friends

the latest watchtowel (march 2020) study edition has a question from readers ‘what evidence exists outside the bible that the israelites were slaves in egypt?’ from what i read in the bible unearthed there being nothing to base any claims on.

the article gives a quote by ‘dr.

bimson : “the biblical traditions of the bondage in egypt and of the exodus have a firm historical basis.” no links or sources given.

LeeT

The source for the James K. Hoffmeier quotes can be found here.
Israel in Egypt: The Evidence for the Authenticity of the Exodus Tradition By James K. Hoffmeier

They also scrape barrel citing David Rohl but not on any of his more contentious arguments.

Great, so they've demonstrated what few doubted, that Egypt was, for much of the 2nd millennium BC home to a range of foreigners which included Caananites, some of whom fell into slavery. That is not evidence of the forced enslavement of an entire people who bred like rabbits for 430 years before a wrathful God made good their escape plans only for them to get sidetracked in the desert for 40 years.

14

Evolution or Creation?

by Doug Mason in

what would the outcome be among people at this site if we were able to conduct a poll on belief in evolution or in creation?.

what would the outcome be if at the same time we asked for religious affiliation (including formal, informal, or none)?

doug.

LeeT

You seem to be omitting the possibility of theistic evolution.

I believe in evolution, am an atheist with regard to the Jewish/Christian/Muslim God and very doubtful to atheist on other God claims. That is, I see no need for the existence of a creative intelligence who acts with human welfare in mind but cannot absolutely discount such an entity. When it comes to Gods about whom specific and testable claims are made, they always seem wanting.

79

Who really is the faithful and discreet* slave whom his master appointed over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time?

by Alex Williams in

this statement was answered in a form of a question to a question posed by one of his followers;.

jesus realized that composite slave had to qualify for such an appointment when he came into power of his kingdom promised by jehovah god.

[and they came to life and ruled as kings with the christ+ for 1,000 years].

LeeT

Alex

w72 4/1 p. 197-200 ‘They Shall Know that a Prophet Was Among Them’

"So, does Jehovah have a prophet to help them, to warn them of dangers and to declare things to come? These questions can be answered in the affirmative." . . . "This “prophet” was not one man, but was a body of men and women. It was the small group of footstep followers of Jesus Christ, known at that time as International Bible Students. Today they are known as Jehovah’s Christian witnesses.
"As time went on and further developments fulfilled the prophecy of Ezekiel, a three-volume set of books titled “Vindication” provided an up-to-date understanding, showing more fully the application of the prophecy.
Thus this group of anointed followers of Jesus Christ, doing a work in Christendom paralleling Ezekiel’s work among the Jews, were manifestly the modern-day Ezekiel, the “prophet” commissioned by Jehovah to declare the good news of God’s Messianic kingdom and to give warning to Christendom.
"The scroll was doubtless delivered to Ezekiel by the hand of one of the cherubs in the vision. This would indicate that Jehovah’s witnesses today make their declaration of the good news of the Kingdom under angelic direction and support. (Rev. 14:6, 7; Matt. 25:31, 32) And since no word or work of Jehovah can fail, for he is God Almighty, the nations will see the fulfilment of what these witnesses say as directed from heaven.
"Yes, the time must come shortly that the nations will have to know that really a “prophet” of Jehovah was among them. Actually, now more than a million and a half persons are helping that collective or composite “prophet” in his preaching work and well over that number of others are studying the Bible with the “prophet” group and its companions."

So here are the Governing Body, declaring themselves as prophets, as modern-day Ezekiels and teaching that the annointed were the FDS, not the Governing Body.

Did Jehovah tell his prophet to teach these false teachings? Surely not.

Deut. 18:20

But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, is to be put to death.”

Rather than put them to death, you choose to follow them.