Posts by cofty

63

Hell Exists

by Poppy520 in

many people of all denominations are beginning to believe that hell does not exist - but the bible supports the claim that it does.

examine this verse, one under nkjv and the other nwt:.

nkjv - matthew 25:46, "and these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.".

Hell Exists

by Poppy520 in

many people of all denominations are beginning to believe that hell does not exist - but the bible supports the claim that it does.

examine this verse, one under nkjv and the other nwt:.

nkjv - matthew 25:46, "and these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.".

cofty

Poppy you are doing a Bachelors degree and yet you seem to lack the ability to read something written in opposition to your superstitions and deal specifically with the arguments.

Your reply totally fails to address any of my points. Go back and read my last post carefully and respond to it or else our conversation is over and you can go back to your echo chamber.

63

Hell Exists

by Poppy520 in

many people of all denominations are beginning to believe that hell does not exist - but the bible supports the claim that it does.

examine this verse, one under nkjv and the other nwt:.

nkjv - matthew 25:46, "and these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.".

cofty

Are you ready to be philosophically consistent? I don't think so. You're just another person angry at a God you don't believe - Poppy

How bloody ridiculous to tell somebody who does not believe god exists that they are angry at god!

I am repulsed by the fact that you worship and adore the concept of a moral monster. I'm angry at the way religious fear and superstition turns people into moral imbeciles.

where do you get your perception of good and evil, cofty?

I have discussed this misconception many times but here we go again..

One of the most persistent arguments for belief in god centres on the necessity of an ultimate law-giver and epitome of goodness.

A softer version is seen in the genuine concern that a loss of faith will result in a corresponding loss of a moral compass - a more strident argument links the existence of good and evil with proof of the reality of god. It is often asserted that without god, moral decisions degenerate to nothing more than personal preferences and the victory of "might is right".

It is helpful to distinguish between absolute morality, objective morality and subjective morality. Christian apologists frequently conflate the first two, and secular debaters often fail to point out the difference.

Theists who disagree on everything else, are unanimous that god is perfectly good. As long as the conversation stops there, in the realm of a thought experiment, then it sounds like an attractive position. However when we try to apply that bald assertion in the real world it is found to be useless at best. In practical terms there is no reliable way to translate the claim that god is perfectly good into actual moral decisions. What we actually see is theists sanctifying ethical positions they arrived at by other means, claiming that their opinions reflect the goodness of god. For every issue there are sincere christians on both sides - equally convinced about their piety.

Given the hiddenness of god - two millennia and counting - the content of his perfect goodness could only be grasped by examining his revelation in the world, in his written word and from our inner moral sense or conscience. However when we look carefully at each of these sources of moral knowledge they are found wanting.

If the created world is assumed to be a reflection of the goodness of god then we are forced to face up to the carnage of "nature red in tooth and claw". Every creature in the history of life has perished by predation, exposure, starvation, parasitic attacks, viruses and injuries. Defender of Truth has recently spelled out the facts in an excellent OP...

At least five times in the history of the world mass extinctions have violently wiped out more than 90% of living things - difficult to reconcile with Jesus' promise that god cares for every sparrow.

We would also have to conclude that the random destruction of millions of men, women and children in natural disasters is a perfect act of love. This despite Jesus' command that we should care for the physical needs of our enemies so as to prove ourselves to be perfect just as god is perfect. If god is the epitome of morality why are his actions so immoral?

What then if we look for moral guidance not in what god does but in what he says? Here again we find an absence of support for belief in absolute goodness. If the bible was the work of a perfect god then we have to accept that - under certain circumstances - slavery infanticide, kidnap, forced marriage, brutal executions and genocide are expressions of perfect morality.

It's at this point that apologists typically change the topic to a defense of god's right to act as he chooses. Ironically the case for god being the absolute standard of goodness gets abandoned in favour of "might is right". What we are left with is not a consistent source of goodness - the same yesterday and today and tomorrow - but a capricious world of ethics by divine fiat.

The problem - sometimes referred to as the Euthyphro dilemma - was identified by Plato when he posed the question of "whether the gods love the pious because it is the pious, or whether the pious is pious only because it is loved by the gods". If god commands good things because they are intrinsically good then goodness exists independent of god and we can discover moral truth without him. If on the other hand things are good because god commands them then morality is not based on anything other than god's unpredictable whims.

What then of our inner moral sense or conscience, does it provide any basis for belief in a divine law-giver?

There are two obvious objections to this assertion. One is a practical one. As we noted earlier, christians who take opposite positions on all manner of ethical questions each claim to be humbly led by their god-given conscience. If the conscience is a result of god's nature in humans then it is a very blunt tool. The other objection to a supernatural origin of a moral compass is the conflict between the conscience and the written demands of the creator. We rightly baulk at the atrocities ordered by Yahweh. Why should our conscience be outraged by infanticide and slavery if it comes from the same god who commanded these things in his word?

The reality is that theists cherry-pick ethical statements from the bible and use then to justify their moral positions post hoc.

We could safely dispose of the words ethics and morality in these sort of conversations without losing anything useful. It all amounts to nothing more than the what we call our concerns about the way our actions affect the well-being of conscious creatures. An interesting challenge for theists is to name an example that does not fit that description - one for which Sam Harris deserves all the credit.

There are moral facts about the world. There are right ways and wrong ways to behave if our concern is to maximise well-being. This is "objective morality". This is the alternative to an imaginary absolute morality and is not a matter of mere personal preference. It provides a way to address moral questions that depends on neither the whims of a deity nor the personal preferences of the majority.

Is the harvesting of embryonic stem-cells morally wrong?

An answer from a position of absolute morality might say yes or no depending on which principles about god the theist considers most compelling. In either case the answer would likely be delivered with the certainty of being on the side of the angels. In reality the answer will be one of personal preference sanctified post hoc by an appeal to selected bible principles. An answer from a position of objective morality would begin by wrestling with the possible consequences of the decision, including the potential benefits of stem-cell research and a consideration any negative effects of destroying early-stage embryos. The answer would be provisional pending further information.

It is this need to accept uncertainty that seems to worry theists. It opposes the frequent appeals in scripture to trust and obey like little children. Morality is difficult and messy. Sometimes there is no clear answer. The solution is not to be found in taking refuge in false, infantalising certainties.

...

63

Hell Exists

by Poppy520 in

many people of all denominations are beginning to believe that hell does not exist - but the bible supports the claim that it does.

examine this verse, one under nkjv and the other nwt:.

nkjv - matthew 25:46, "and these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.".

cofty

Poppy - Listen to yourself.

You are a cheerleader for the most evil, sadistic, fiendish, bestial monster ever invented by the sick minds of perverts.

Christianity turns otherwise good people into moral imbeciles. Your views are literally disgusting and beneath the contempt of every decent person.

All I have are the scriptures

The Goat Herders Guide to Life.

A manual for infanticide, rape, kidnap and slavery. Good is good!

37

Should private citizens be allowed to video record law enforcement?

by Fisherman in

jw
friends

i saw an article in the news yesterday that laws are going to be passed subjecting the police to being recorded by anyone while performing their duty or enforcing the law and encourages citizens to sue if they interfere.

some law enforcement agents become angry and confiscate recording devices from people recording them while making an arrest, etc.. it does seem that the work that the police and other government agents do is public and not private or confidential so there should be nothing to hide from the cameras.

on the other hand, how can one distinguish being shot by a camera or by a weapon until one is hit?.

cofty

Chief Constables in England have recently written to police officers reminded them they have absolutely no right to object to being filmed in public.

63

Hell Exists

by Poppy520 in

many people of all denominations are beginning to believe that hell does not exist - but the bible supports the claim that it does.

examine this verse, one under nkjv and the other nwt:.

nkjv - matthew 25:46, "and these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.".

cofty

Poppy - I was a born-again, evangelical, bible-believing, forgiven, adopted son of god Christian for almost a decade after I left the cult. I know EXACTLY what I am talking about when I call your god an evil moral monster.

You keep talking about god "allowing" those who don't believe in her to go to hell. You know you are being disingenuous. In other words you are lying for Jesus. Shame on you. Take responsibility. Your concept of god is the most sadistic, fiendish being in the history of mythology.

You worship and adore this miscreant. What does that say about your moral compass?

44

Things You Still Agree With The JWs On

by Fred Franztone in

aside from obvious things that most people agree on, like theft being wrong and the importance of family, i can't think of a single thing i agree with the jws on, nothing that's specific to their religion anyway.

do you have any?.

cofty

No not one single thing.

Why so many anti-military comments? Thank the military that you still have freedom that millions of others have not enjoyed. Of course war should always be a last resort but pacifism is moral cowardice.

56

Is this life all there is?

by Fisherman in

jw
friends

what do you sincerely think?

do you nurture any hope?.

cofty

Both have a faith of a different eventuality - The Fall Guy

An atheist is simply somebody who is unconvinced by the claims of theists. Faith is belief in things for which there is no evidence. It is not a way to discover truth. I have no faith.

52

Royal Australian Commission - Recomendations for Jehovahs Witnesses

by curiousconfused in

the report is finally out.......... ————————.

recommendations to the jehovah’s witness organisation.

recommendation 16.27. the jehovah’s witness organisation should abandon its application of the two-witness rule in cases involving complaints of child sexual abuse.. recommendation 16.28. the jehovah’s witness organisation on should revise its policies so that women are involved in processes related to invesation and determining allegations of child sexual abuse.. recommendation 16.29. the jehovah’s witness organisation should no longer require its members to shun those who disassociate from the organisation in cases where the reason for disassocia on is related to a person being a victim of child sexual abuse..

cofty

A Royal Commission of Inquiry is a serious business. It acts on behalf of the Queen and its findings and recommendations must be taken seriously by the Government of Australia. It's what happens next that matters. This is a good time for Australians to lobby their political representatives.

20

My Father passed away & i'm suicidal. I want to talk to somebody

by Qrystal in

in summary, my dad passed away not to long ago, 8 months ago, on april while i was 12. i'm 13 and i've been grieving for 6 months now and im suicidal.

i'm not doing this to get attention, but to talk to someone.

my dad was a jehovah's witness and i want to talk to all of you.

cofty

Hello Qrystal. I'm really sorry to hear about how badly you are being feeling. Please do seek help from somebody who can talk to you about dealing with your grief. Use some of the numbers others have provided above and/or talk to an older trusted friend. It will get better and you will have a long and happy life in the future. You really do need help to get through this crisis. Wishing you well.