Posts by jerome

15

Telling a JW that you are anti-watchtower.

by jerome in

the time has finally come.

i am getting dangerously close to a situation where i will have to reveal to my gf's mother and siblings that not only do i not share their beliefs but the probility of them converting me to their religion is next to none.

relaying this information could cause one hell of alot of problems with the situation as it satnds.. in my country which is mainly christian the the jws eventhough not accepted are permitted to continue with their faith.

jerome

I have thought of many ways to let them know but I dont know which one to use, I think that I will only have one chance to do this so I have to do it right. But whatever happens I have to be honest.

I was thinking about bring out a cult fact sheet and have them anwser questions to see if they meet the criteria.

Or just ask them if they know what is "critical thinking" and move on from there asking if they knew how it could be impared.

I think that I have figured out away how to let them know that I am not totally ignorant of the organisation. but i cant reveal too much.

This is one slippery rope. If they had any idea of all the things that I know about them...

Just sitting on the fence.

jerome

55

You Know

by Yadirf in

jw
friends

the photo you use is a great choice.

i understand exactly where you are coming from ... why you are using it here.

and to think, everytime an apostate sees one of your posts s/he has to see it.

jerome

Before I came here:

I had heard about mind controll.
I had heard about thought reform.
I had heard about suppressing the ability to utilize critical jugdgement and come to logical conclusions.

But I have never seen it in action before I came to this board.

At first I thought that it was stupidity that in the face of so much factual evidence that someone could still hold to the beliefs and thought processes that you hold to but now I think that I have a better understanding of what you are about and why you behave the way you do. I nolonger see you as stupid, not that I ever really did but I just dident understand you as a witnesses.

I wondered why you would avoid the most pertinent issues and settle to make pointless insults or only anwser the more meangingless issues presented to you and others in a post, your faith has really got to be strong and that has to be respected. But if only it werent misplaced you may actually be of great benefit to the scoiety but you seem to be doing just fing demonstrating to lurkers just how screwed up your mind can become if you expose yourself to the wrong types of indoctrination systems.

You make a good watchtower soldier fighting to the end. The Governing body probally dreams about an army of witnesses like you. You dont thik outside the paremeters set for you by your leaders you simply follow orders. It is almos as if you think with two different brains, one when dealing with Watchtower issues and one when dealing with anything else. That is truly amazing.

Keep up the good work. Fight the good fight.

jerome

The Bible is a two edged sword wield it for evil and it you may get hurt.

15

Telling a JW that you are anti-watchtower.

by jerome in

the time has finally come.

i am getting dangerously close to a situation where i will have to reveal to my gf's mother and siblings that not only do i not share their beliefs but the probility of them converting me to their religion is next to none.

relaying this information could cause one hell of alot of problems with the situation as it satnds.. in my country which is mainly christian the the jws eventhough not accepted are permitted to continue with their faith.

jerome

Ok here is the deal.

I think I get the idea about giving them small doses of truth over an extended period of time but in my experience if you make one mistake while doining it you would have lost your chance.

My gf's sister invited me to the memorial and I dident go.
I think sooner or later they will want to know why I dident.

I am pondering telling them that I donot want to get involved with a religion or any other organisitation for that matter which does not permit you to leave freely if you choose to do so. I know that if I tried to do this that it would lead them into some discussion about whow anyone who wants to leave is free to do so ant any given time.

I want to play dumb but I want to be honest. There are four witnesses that if they see me associating with the family will probally want to warn tham that I am anti-witness. That is why I have to come clean. It is better that I tell them than sombody else does it.

Today they invited me for EASTER lunch. I dont think that i'll be going. I really have ro think this thing through before i go any further.

The easter thing in my opionion was an attempt to sound normal. I dont think that they know that I have good knowledge of most of their teachings. So her mother wouldent have known that I know that I know that they dont celebrate easter. My gf dosent want to tell them about me because of the trouble that it might cause.

I cant pull out my old watchtowers. So how exactly would I show them where to look reguarding any bits of truth. If I did that they would ask me how I knew where to look and more importantly WHO TOLD ME WHERE TO LOOK.

In the mean time my gf still thinks that I am wrong about it not being the truth. So I still have alot of work to do where she is concerned.

I'm walking a tight rope here.

Somehow I have to let them know that I know alot about the Watchtower without letting them know how.

Thanks larc. As well as will.

The Bible is a two edged sword wield it for evil and it you may get hurt.

15

Telling a JW that you are anti-watchtower.

by jerome in

the time has finally come.

i am getting dangerously close to a situation where i will have to reveal to my gf's mother and siblings that not only do i not share their beliefs but the probility of them converting me to their religion is next to none.

relaying this information could cause one hell of alot of problems with the situation as it satnds.. in my country which is mainly christian the the jws eventhough not accepted are permitted to continue with their faith.

jerome

The time has finally come. I am getting dangerously close to a situation where I will have to reveal to my gf's mother and siblings that Not only do I not share their beliefs but the probility of them converting me to their religion is next to none. Relaying this information could cause one hell of alot of problems with the situation as it satnds.

In my country which is mainly christian the the jws eventhough not accepted are permitted to continue with their faith. Most people just find them as an annoying distraction on saturdays and sundays who continuosly are trying to get you to buy their magazines. Even though the country is mainly Christian the JWs continue to grow because the Churches in my opionion are not doing enough to inform the people of the dangers of associating with them. The only reason that i have been able to turn full swing in my opionion of th WTBS is because of the information I recieved on the internet.

I have spent some time trying to figure out exactly just how I am going to tell her family that I think their religion is dangerous and I want nothing to do with it. In fact I am currently ingaged in warning people about it.

I think that many of the posters of the board have faced a similar situation and I would like any suggestions that you have to make as to how exactly should I go about this.

I intend to be honest and relay my views very soon but I would like to know what would be the best way to go about it and the consequences.

jerome

The Bible is a two edged sword wield it for evil and it you may get hurt.

31

Whats the truth about 1914?

by Leander in

jw
friends

i've heard on a few occasions from my research on the internet that 1914 really does not have the significance that wtbs assigns to it.

from my limited understanding on the matter it involves the wtbs moving the date of the destruction of jerusalem.. can someone give me a little more detail on this or provide a link with a website that does?.

if its true that the wts has manipulated historical dates and bible scriptures to support this date of 1914 then that would mean everything else crumbles.. thanks for any info on this

jerome

The Watchtower has lied to its members about the actuall method that was used to calculate the date of the presence of Christ.
The consequences of changing this book would be diseasterous. As the authority that was claimed by the WBTS would be made invalid. The lives lost and the suffering caused by this organisation would then be put to blame on the persons who implemented them in the first place. In actuallity all tha happened was that the dates of the end of the Gentile times and the invisible return of Christ the End of the World in 1918 were readjusted.

The presence of Christ now became 1914.
Instead od the gentile times ending in 1799 it was also moved to the 1914 date.
In stead of the world ending in 1918 it was reajdusted to reaffirm the authority of the WBTS by stating that Christ judged all of Christendom and rejected them as apostate and gave all the authority of the WBTS.

Now when a JW hears these dates he has no idea of what the orignal meaning of these dates were. The Watchtower apparently has made an effort to change alot of the figures and dated published in these older publications when they reach bound volumes and are reprinted. So when a curious JW decides to lookinto it for him self he only variefies that the apostates have ben lying all along and the Watchtower never published such a thing. Not only that it has encouraged its members not to read many of the older volumes because they are "old light."

Anyone who finds out about these discrepencies is shure to be siclenced.

So when a JW tries to downplay the significance of their faulty chronology they are justifying the deception that has gone into the continuation of this lie, including the methods used to make shure that it does not become public knowledge that they are wrong, the significance to the authority of the Governing body and the fact that they are the Chosen people of God.

If a JWs looks you square in the eye and telles you that 1914 is not their most important date they are not being honest. Nothing can be further from the truth.

Reguarding the presence of Christ signifiying the end of the Gentile Times:

The so called signs of the last days would then dissapear as nothing more than a figment of the imagination much as in the case of the strory of The Emperors New Clothes. People can sense the time of the end only because they are told what to look for. If the Watchtower did not instill this sense of urgency on its members of the impending traveristy then it would loose much controll of its members.

People do not speak out against the Empor because they are afraid of the consequences. Therefor the evdience of the supposed presence of Christ is all in the witnesses head. This has been the case with many generations of witnesses.

They first held the presence of Christ to be 1799.
Back then they could see the sings of his presence.

They then chaanged it to 1874.
Back then they could see the signs of Christs return.

Now they hold the presence of Christs return as 1914.
They can still see the signs of his presence.

***********************

When will people who hold this belief come to realize that it is nothing more than prophetic specluation. When will they learn from the mistakes of others.

Before 1874 when they thought that he had returned in 1799 they had all the proof and all the evidence but they were wrong.

After 1874 when the world dident end and they thought that Christ had instead returned invisibly they had all the proof all the signs but they were wrong.

Now after 1914 when the world dident end again and the speculated that Christ returned invisibly in 1914 they have all the proof and all the signs but they some how think that they are better than the others.

When will the cycle end?

The Bible is a two edged sword wield it for evil and it you may get hurt.

31

Whats the truth about 1914?

by Leander in

jw
friends

i've heard on a few occasions from my research on the internet that 1914 really does not have the significance that wtbs assigns to it.

from my limited understanding on the matter it involves the wtbs moving the date of the destruction of jerusalem.. can someone give me a little more detail on this or provide a link with a website that does?.

if its true that the wts has manipulated historical dates and bible scriptures to support this date of 1914 then that would mean everything else crumbles.. thanks for any info on this

jerome

So lets recap what was left for Jesus Christ to investigate and make a Judgement on.

1) Two failed end time prediction (these were God's words By The Way). Jesus thought that it was acceptable for them to have thought that the worlld would end in two seperate occasions.

2) One expected end time predictionthe Bible students at hat time moved the daate for the end of the world to 1918. Again this was Gods unquestionable date so you should have faith in it.

3) The Finished Mystery. This was the book that contained the maajor doctrines of the Biblestudents at the time jesus supposedly judged them. If every JW were to read this book what would be the consequences.. So Christ Jesus as a Judge was supposedly to find this set of rules and teachings more acceptable than any other Church and appoint them as his sole channel of communication.

4) They still practised Pyramidology. Pyramidology is a pagan practise.

5) Freedom to associate with those who left the religion. Now that is a disfelloshipping offense. By The Way disfelloshipping wasnt invented yet.

6) Russel was the Faithfulll and Discrete Slave.

7) The FDS (Russel) was accused of sexual misconduct, was divorced because of his aggorance, had no theological background, suffered from a miracle wheat scaandal and lost every single court case in which he tried to defend his good name. Jesus found his activities more acceptable than any other minister.

8) Organised religion was evil. Everyone was going to heaven not only the 144000, By The Way they were going to be reptured.

9) Jesus' presence began in 1874. Previously it was said that his presence began in 1799. Jesus found this perfectly ok.

10) Black men still bore the mark of Cain. Oh and dont forget when the New World Order came about everyone saved was going to revert to their own orignal colour WHITE.

11) Holidays still celebrated, especially Christmas. Jesus accepted the celebration ofthese pagan evnts.

12) Not only was the cross used but THE CROWN AND CROSS was used. The crown and crossis a symbol used by the freemasons.

13) Michael and his Arch angles were the Pope and his Bishops.

14) A mans desire to serve God was determined by the shape of his head.

15) Dont forget to soak up all of those Benifictial ultraviolet rays.

16) Very importantly New light "Cannot contradict existing light." Compare this to the present definition of new light.

Jehovahs witnesses are expected to believe that this was all acceptable in the eyes of Christ and that it negated the good done by any other Church in Christendom.

This was all acceptable in the Eyes of the gratest Judge in the universe.

For these and other reasons I cannot possibly see how any Jehovah Witness can expect me to confirm that the WTBS is the TRUTH.

My ears may have been tickeled but at least I am aware of that fact while they are totally unaware.

Why would I want to join a religion that made Jwsus look so incapable of making proper judgement.

31

Whats the truth about 1914?

by Leander in

jw
friends

i've heard on a few occasions from my research on the internet that 1914 really does not have the significance that wtbs assigns to it.

from my limited understanding on the matter it involves the wtbs moving the date of the destruction of jerusalem.. can someone give me a little more detail on this or provide a link with a website that does?.

if its true that the wts has manipulated historical dates and bible scriptures to support this date of 1914 then that would mean everything else crumbles.. thanks for any info on this

jerome

You know is one of the few jw sympathizers who has actually come to the conclusion that the WTBS chronology is wrong.

The 1914 date is very significant for many reasons.

If 607 is not the actuall date for the destruction of jeruslem but 587 is, then that would mean that the gentile times ended 20 years after 1914.

That date is so important because the JWs think that jesus christ came into kindgom power in 1914 and that he cast the devil and his dark angles out of heaven and they are now restricted to the vicinity of the earth. Because of satans being cast down to the earth he realizes that this is his last chance to take as many soles with him to ghenna/sheol/hades. So in a very brutal attempt at this he was almost directly responsible for World War I.

The story also goes that Jesus Christ exaimed all the Churches of the world in 1917/18 (not too shure) and rejected all the others as becoming apostate but the WTBS. So he then selected that organisation for God. This apostacy supposedly started after the last apostle died and soon after the Christian Church became inter woven with Greek philosophy including doctrines such as the imorality of the sole, which then lead to the doctrine of Hell (ghenna/sheol/hades). And another doctrine soon imerged being the doctrine of the trinity, which became firmly established years later. It was because of these that Jesus supposedly rejected the Orthodox Christian Churches.

Now if this is the case then one would have to ask:
What exactly were the Scoiety teaching at that time while Jesus Christ inspected their Church.

The Major Doctrines of the jws at that time can be found in the book
The Finished Mystery

The doctrines thet the jws at that time hardly resemble what the Jws teach today. The Jws call this New light. Rather than Jesus relaying Gods revelation in one blinding flash he does it progressively in tiny steps which lead them towards perfection.

*********************************

Now Here come the consequences of the Chronology being wrong. But first more of what the JWs were doing up to that time.

By the year 1917/18 the Jehovahs Witnesses (then Bible students) had already expected that the world would come to an end 2 times. They thought that it would end first in 1914 and when that prophesy dident materialize and they werent raptured from the earth they put foward the date to !915. When they werent raptured from the earth again in 1915 they put the date foward to 1918. All of these supposed prophesies were put foward in the name of God Almighty and were said to beabsolutely unquestionable, that is untill they dident come to pass.

Also Russel practiced pyramidology a pracise which has since been condemened as pagan. Russel associated with Nelson H Barbour a Second Adventis who had lost most of the subscribers of his magazine because he had predicted that the world would end in 1874 and that prophesy failed to materilaize. Russel then adopted many of his teachings reguarding chronlogy etc and formulated a new opinion that instead of the end of the world it was to be Jesus' presence that would begin in 1874. Before that it was thought that the presence of Christ began in 1799.

Russel was involved in a scandal regarding miracle wheat because he sold wheat which he thought was special in some way because a person had asked the Lord for a miracle and a varity of wheat grew which apparently had three times the yeild per bussel compared to 'ordinarny wheat.' Test were done on the supposed miracle variety wheat and it was concluded that the wheat was a good variety better than some but not as good as others. His reputation suffered teribbley for that. Also he was divorced and accusations of sexual misconduct followed him around for the remainder of his life.

It should be noted that the Bible students in early times only numbred in the tens of thousands, so it was believed then that everyone had a heavenly hope. Back then only Russel was condidered to be the FDS and not the 144 thousand.

In an attempt to saalvage his reputation he ingaged in many legal battles suing for liable when newspapers and pasters circulated factual information about him which reflected negatively on him. He never won any of these such lawsuits to my knowledge. Infact he purjered himself in one instance because he claimed to be able to recite the greek alapha bet but failed to perform a simple such task in court. He had little education and theological background so one would wonder how he was able to continuosly breakdown many of the fundmental doctrines of the church.

This is what was given for Jesus Christ to inspect.

51

The Watchtower is NOT a false prophet .. yes/no

by refiners fire in

jw
friends

does a prophet have to claim to speak for "god" to be a false prophet?.

can he be a false prophet if he claims to speak for someone else who speaks to god?.

can he be a false prophet if he interprets a biblical prophet in a new way?.

jerome

The fruits of a genuine apple tree are apples.
The fruits of genuine fig tree are figs.
The fruits of genuine false prophet are false prophecies.

Simple as that.

They will try to confuse the fruits of a bad sprit with the fruits of a false prophet.

A genuine apple tree dosent give pears.
A genuine fig tree dosent give mellons.
A genuine prophet dosent give false prophecies.

When faced with this delima the jws ask if the WTBS is a false prophet then where is the frutiage of their works, and point to the acts and ask what bad works do they permit?

But why should a false prophet necissarily give rise to adultery?

The fruits of a bad sprit are not to be confiused with the fruits a false prophet.

As far as I know people are a mixture of good and evil that is why they are capable of bad works. But because they are capable of bad works dosenot mean that they have to exhibit all of the fruits of a bad sprit to be a bad person.

There are certain things that come into black and whit catagories in the bible and this is one of them.

You are either true are false.
There is no middle ground when it comes to prophesy.
The watchtower claims to be a genuine prophet.
There are only two types of prophets.
True prophets and false prophets.

True prophets are 100% accurate.

They have to be. What would have happened if moses had been mistaken about the red sea parting? Even though he was accurate up to that point if he was wrong he would have cause the lives of untold numbers of people.

A true prophet has to be 100% accurate if not he/she is a false prophet.
No exceptions!

Even though prophets are inteled to voice their own opinion if they do so they do not equate their own personall opionion with the opinion with the opinion of God. Because the word of God is infallible not the word of just a man.

And even more importantly what would happen if someone who was considered to be a genuine prophet were to voice their opionion as the word of God and what he/she prophesized did not come to pass.
It would not reflect positively on the lord, it would make the lodr look like a liar. The Bible says that the lord cannot lie.

No matter how sincere no matter how much someone thought what they did would help people if it did not come to pass then the person is a false prophet.
A prophesy is either true or it is false.
A prophesy must happen EXACTLY AS PROPHESIZED with out modification.
If you said something would happen IN THE NAME OF THE LORD GOD ALMIGHTY and it dident happen EXACTLY as you said it would your are not intitled to reintrepret your prophesy because the Bible dosent teach that.
If that were the case there would be no distinction between a true prophesy and a false prophesy.
You know what will happen before it happens. That is what a prophesy is.
An exceptional case of a false prophet would be someone who presented his own views as the word of God Almighty and expected people to follow his commands as such. That is the worst kind of false prophet.
Also if you claim to speak for some one who is inspired and you misquote him I would think that that also would make you a false prophet.
Someone was commisioned to speak on the behalf of Moses do you not think that he also had to be 100% accurate.

The Bible is clear on this matter:

IF IT DOES NOT COME TO PASS EXACTLY AS PROPHESIZED IT DID NOT COME FROM GOD BECAUSE GOD ALMIGHTY CANNOT BE WRONG

IF YOU CLAIM TO SPEAK DIRECTLY FOR A PROPHET OF THE LORD AND YOU SAY THAT WHAT YOU ARE SAYING IS THE WORD OF GOD AND THAT YOU ARE 100% POSITIVE THAT IT WAS FROM GOD AND WHAT YOU SAY DOES NOT COME TO PASS EITHER YOU ARE A FALSE PROPHET.

The amount of powere that comes with the position of the porphet of the lord is Great and so is the responsiblity. So measures have bee implemented so that this power is not misused.

DEUT 18-20-22

Anybody who does not pass this test and tries to make excuses for it is definately not from God.

Nathan gave his opionion and he was corrected the very same night.
Notice that he was corrected before the prophecy took place and not after.

The diciples were unshure about circumsicion and they corrected themselves.
If you cannot pass the test WITH 100% accuracy then you are not of God simple as that.

jerome

The Bible is a two edged sword wield it for evil and it you may get hurt.

20

Temple & Tabernacle

by Yadirf in

jw
friends

i'm sure that many lurker's, like myself, enjoy religious artwork.

here's a couple that i've borrowed and uploaded to my personal website, along with brief comments.

they are images of the temple and tabernacle, respectively.. http://4heavens.homestead.com/temple.html.

jerome

Yadirf

If you dont want to anwser any questions that I have now because of the way that I presented them before that is understandable.

Meaning I donot share your beliefs in fact I think them to be dangerous and I get really annoied at the fact that you have been on this board for some time and somehow manage to miss the big picture. When I think that someone has the ability to reason through somthing clearly and come to a logical conclusion I call it stupidity. Forgive my political incorrectness. But personally if I missed something that was considered really obvious to others i wouldent mind someone calling me stupid ethier. That is just how I see things. But I have come across something recently that has prompted me to change my views lately and that is why I have questions to ask you. Not on yur religion but how to show respect for the beliefs of others.

I wont bother you anymore on this thread.

A simple yes or no anwser would work.

The Bible is a two edged sword wield it for evil and it you may get hurt.

20

Temple & Tabernacle

by Yadirf in

jw
friends

i'm sure that many lurker's, like myself, enjoy religious artwork.

here's a couple that i've borrowed and uploaded to my personal website, along with brief comments.

they are images of the temple and tabernacle, respectively.. http://4heavens.homestead.com/temple.html.

jerome

Yadirf

I have some questions to ask you.

I aslo have questions to ask yoyo/mav

Could you please setup a hotmail account so that I could e-mail you.

The Bible is a two edged sword wield it for evil and it you may get hurt.