Posts by sobrino1

135

No one is going to Heaven (and my introduction to the forum)

by sobrino1 in

i'm new to the forum, though i had been a lurker for quite some time now.

i studied w/ the witnesses for a number of years, to be specific, for 10 years (since i was a child) but never actually became one; though, i was counted as one in the yearbooks as a "publisher.

" so, as far as i got was as an unbaptized publisher.

sobrino1

Soldier77:

Within the first post of my Intro I was being attack.....So I needed to enter with a bang!

135

No one is going to Heaven (and my introduction to the forum)

by sobrino1 in

i'm new to the forum, though i had been a lurker for quite some time now.

i studied w/ the witnesses for a number of years, to be specific, for 10 years (since i was a child) but never actually became one; though, i was counted as one in the yearbooks as a "publisher.

" so, as far as i got was as an unbaptized publisher.

sobrino1

Hi, believingxjw: you asked the following

" Is Jesus always going to be in heaven? No…"

Could you expound on that a bit? Thanks.

(Acts 3:19-21) . . .Repent, therefore, and turn around so as to get YOUR sins blotted out, that seasons of refreshing may come from the person of the Lord and that he may send forth the Christ appointed for YOU, Jesus, whom heaven, indeed, must hold within itself until the times of restoration of all things of which God spoke through the mouth of his holy prophets of old time. . .

I honestly think Acts 3:21 shuts down the Society's 1914, Jesus will be and reign in heaven w/ 144k doctrine because: According to Acts, Jesus will only be in heaven "until" it is the time of the restoration. Since he's only in heaven temporarily and since he's coming back, I think Acts 3:21 is the most explicit text of his temporal residence in heaven. Of course, there are all the other texts of "coming again" that imply the same principle.

135

No one is going to Heaven (and my introduction to the forum)

by sobrino1 in

i'm new to the forum, though i had been a lurker for quite some time now.

i studied w/ the witnesses for a number of years, to be specific, for 10 years (since i was a child) but never actually became one; though, i was counted as one in the yearbooks as a "publisher.

" so, as far as i got was as an unbaptized publisher.

sobrino1

Leolaia: Would I be correct in understanding you that you believe that heaven is not a destination at all, whether immediately at death or in the resurrection?

Yes, that would be my position. And thank you for being friendly, even though you probably disagree.......unlike that other post

135

No one is going to Heaven (and my introduction to the forum)

by sobrino1 in

i'm new to the forum, though i had been a lurker for quite some time now.

i studied w/ the witnesses for a number of years, to be specific, for 10 years (since i was a child) but never actually became one; though, i was counted as one in the yearbooks as a "publisher.

" so, as far as i got was as an unbaptized publisher.

sobrino1

Brotherdan: I don't even know where to begin to show how wrong you are about heaven

Start with the Bible....

Are you a Witness Dan? You sure do debate like one.. simply using fallacies calling things "silly" and making accusations here and there but you haven't proven what you say I'm doing..

But back to John 14: If Jesus "comes back" and his disciples are where he is, and if He is on earth since he came back... then Christians will be on earth, won't they dan? (especially in light of Rev 5:10)

Brotherdan: You are taking a verse out of context and misapplying WORDS.

Like suggesting "kingdom of heaven" is really "kingdom IN heaven" ? Is that what you mean?

You also said earlier that most scholars disagree with me..... Actually, the majority agree with me on this.. Most believe man's eternal dwelling place will be in the "new heavens and new earth." (see Douglas Wilson's Heaven misplaced; NT Wright's Surprised by Hope; etc. )

How clearer can Jesus be than Matt 5:5?

135

No one is going to Heaven (and my introduction to the forum)

by sobrino1 in

i'm new to the forum, though i had been a lurker for quite some time now.

i studied w/ the witnesses for a number of years, to be specific, for 10 years (since i was a child) but never actually became one; though, i was counted as one in the yearbooks as a "publisher.

" so, as far as i got was as an unbaptized publisher.

sobrino1

Brotherdan:

Could I get your opinion on this one:

John 14:2,3 - "In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also"

Where is the Father’s house? In heaven, but he also says “I am coming again”… You can only go back “again” to somewhere you have already been…..the earth:

(Acts 3:19-21) Repent, therefore, and turn around so as to get YOUR sins blotted out, that seasons of refreshing may come from the person of the Lord and that he may send forth the Christ appointed for YOU, Jesus, whom heaven, indeed, must hold within itself until the times of restoration of all things of which God spoke through the mouth of his holy prophets of old time. . .

Is Jesus always going to be in heaven? No…

You keep talking hermeneutics but cite no instance where I’ve violated any rules. On the other hand, you’re the one reading “kingdom of heaven” to mean “kingdom IN heaven.”

Talk about “cult-like mentality.” You’re reading the Bible the way the Society does…

135

No one is going to Heaven (and my introduction to the forum)

by sobrino1 in

i'm new to the forum, though i had been a lurker for quite some time now.

i studied w/ the witnesses for a number of years, to be specific, for 10 years (since i was a child) but never actually became one; though, i was counted as one in the yearbooks as a "publisher.

" so, as far as i got was as an unbaptized publisher.

sobrino1

To: Leolaia

I don’t see how using Ephesians is a problem with regards to Paul saying that he hasn’t received his reward yet. Nobody gets their reward until Jesus comes:

(Revelation 22:12) “‘Look! I am coming quickly, and the reward I give is with me, to render to each one as his work is.”

The point of me alluding to Ephesians is to show how one can in some sense be “in heaven” but yet on earth.

Anyhow, I don’t think it necessary to understand Phil. in light of Eph.

British N.T. scholar NT Wright says this about Philippians 3:20-21:

“Many have thought that if our citizenship is in heaven that means that heaven is our real home, the place to which we will eventually go. But that is not how the language of citizenship functions. The point of being a citizen of a mother city is not that when life gets really tough, or when you retire, you can go back home to the mother city. The people to whom Paul was writing in Philippi were Roman citizens, but they had no intention of going back to Rome. They were the means through which Roman civilization was being brought to the world of Northern Greece. If and when the going got tough there, the emperor would come from Rome to deliver them from their enemies in Philippi, and establish them as a true Roman presence right there. So, Paul says, 'from heaven we await a saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will change our lowly body to be like his glorious body.' This is, I suggest, much more integrated with a theology of new heavens and new earth than with a theology of going from the present space-time world to a nonspatiotemporal one. It ties in with other passages such as Gal 4.21-31, which speaks of the Jerusalem 'which is above.' The purpose is not to escape to that Jerusalem, any more than the muddled Galatians thought they had to go and live in terrestrial Jerusalem in order to be proper Christians. No: they were under the dangerous influence of the terrestrial Jerusalem, and Paul is saying, in effect, 'you must be under the influence of, and act as the agents of, the heavenly Jerusalem.' Philippians 3 and Galatians 4 both speak of the dimension of the present reality which is to be informed by the mother city, not of a sense of escaping from present reality to that mother city.”

With regards to Philippians 1:23, I would agree that to be “released” (NWT) or “departed” to be with Christ is what Paul is talking about. You asked, in essence, ‘where is he departing?’ I would say where Jesus is. But when does this take place? When is this “being with Christ” take place? I believe it is at his coming. Since the dead in Christ are raised first, and since that should include Paul, then it is at his coming (1 Thess 4:16-17) when Paul gets what he was talking about.

Jesus is only in heaven temporarily:

(Acts 3:19-21) Repent, therefore, and turn around so as to get YOUR sins blotted out, that seasons of refreshing may come from the person of the Lord and that he may send forth the Christ appointed for YOU, Jesus, whom heaven, indeed, must hold within itself until the times of restoration of all things of which God spoke through the mouth of his holy prophets of old time. . .

135

No one is going to Heaven (and my introduction to the forum)

by sobrino1 in

i'm new to the forum, though i had been a lurker for quite some time now.

i studied w/ the witnesses for a number of years, to be specific, for 10 years (since i was a child) but never actually became one; though, i was counted as one in the yearbooks as a "publisher.

" so, as far as i got was as an unbaptized publisher.

sobrino1

Brotherdan, please note that the phrase "kingdom of heaven" doesn't mean "kingdom in heaven", but simply a kingdom from heaven, i.e. from God.

You site Matthew 5:3, but if you read just 2 verses later you see that inheriting the "kingdom of heaven" is really "inheriting the earth."

Every single text you mentioned, you read it w/ a presupposition and yet you say that my exegesis and hermeneutics aren't sound.

135

No one is going to Heaven (and my introduction to the forum)

by sobrino1 in

i'm new to the forum, though i had been a lurker for quite some time now.

i studied w/ the witnesses for a number of years, to be specific, for 10 years (since i was a child) but never actually became one; though, i was counted as one in the yearbooks as a "publisher.

" so, as far as i got was as an unbaptized publisher.

sobrino1

Leolaia: "So what is your interpretation of ch. 5? Or ch. 1 and 3 of Philippians?"

Chapter 5 of which book?

As for Philippians 1 and 3, I don’t have a problem w/ those verses.

I’m assuming you’re referring to:

(Philippians 3:20) As for us, our citizenship exists in the heavens, from which place also we are eagerly waiting for a savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,

Notice that a Christian’s “citizenship exists in the heavens” but that at the same time they expect “a savior, the Lord Jesus Christ” from this very place. If Christians were going to heaven, why do they expect Jesus “from” this “place”? That would be my question.

As for their citizenship “in the heavens”, notice what Ephesians 2:6 says:

(Ephesians 2:6) . . .and he raised us up [past tense] together and seated us [past tense] together in the heavenly places in union with Christ Jesus,

So, according to Paul, a Christian can be ‘raised up’ and “seated” in the “heavenly places” while being on earth. In a similar manner, I understand Philippians 3 to be talking about the same thing. A Christian can be in heaven in some sense, but in the same way that Paul was "in the heavenly places."

Hope that helps in understanding my position.

135

No one is going to Heaven (and my introduction to the forum)

by sobrino1 in

i'm new to the forum, though i had been a lurker for quite some time now.

i studied w/ the witnesses for a number of years, to be specific, for 10 years (since i was a child) but never actually became one; though, i was counted as one in the yearbooks as a "publisher.

" so, as far as i got was as an unbaptized publisher.

sobrino1

I don't know how to reply but brotherdan, you said I'm "cherry picking".... How so?

Not trying to turn this into a debate, but do the scriptures I point to demonstrate anything other than Christians will live on earth ?

You also said: The Bible says otherwise. Your hermeneutics on this issue are unsound.... you have ignored 99% of the NT to come to your conclusion.

Care to show me where the "Bible says otherwise"?

Thanks to your guys' welcome, by the way

135

No one is going to Heaven (and my introduction to the forum)

by sobrino1 in

i'm new to the forum, though i had been a lurker for quite some time now.

i studied w/ the witnesses for a number of years, to be specific, for 10 years (since i was a child) but never actually became one; though, i was counted as one in the yearbooks as a "publisher.

" so, as far as i got was as an unbaptized publisher.

sobrino1

Hi,

I'm new to the forum, though I had been a lurker for quite some time now. I studied w/ the Witnesses for a number of years, to be specific, for 10 years (since I was a child) but never actually became one; though, I was counted as one in the yearbooks as a "publisher." So, as far as I got was as an unbaptized publisher. I do, however, have many family members whom are Witnesses and I have discussed w/ them some of the issues with this religion and their beliefs, but it goes in one ear and out the other.

Since I'm posting in the 'beliefs, doctrine & practices' section, I want to discuss "heaven" and its NOT being a place where anyone goes, even the 'anointed.'

Jesus very clearly and specifically said the following in Matthew 5:5:

“Happy are the mild-tempered ones, since they will inherit the earth."

I know Witnesses take this to be merely a place where the "other sheep" or "great crowd" will live eternally, but that's not what Jesus said. He gave no such qualifications.

Another thing is that Witnesses often say that only the 'anointed' need to be born again and thus they are the one's that inherit the kingdom, in heaven. That is surely an interesting belief, but equally unscriptural. Matthew 25:34: “Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, YOU who have been blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for YOU from the founding of the world. This text very clearly demonstrates and shows that the "sheep", supposedly the "great crowd" of Witnesses, will also "inherit the kingdom." It also demonstrates that the kingdom of God or as Matthew calls it, the kingdom of the heavens, will be on earth. According to Witnesses, this group of "sheep" aren't born again and yet they still inherit the kingdom! Though this kingdom is supposedly in heaven. According to Jesus, not so. Everything in the Bible points to a kingdom on earth and all Christians have an oppurtunity to reign w/ Christ on earth. The bible itself says as much: Revelation 5:10 "you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on the earth.” I've also shown my Witness relatives that being 'anointed' has nothing to do w/ going to heaven as their Governing Body teaches. According to Paul being 'anointed' or 'sealed' has to do w/ something else: 2 Corinthians 1:21-22 "Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come." To be 'anointed' in a Christian sense, is to "stand firm in Christ" and have "his Spirit in our hearts." Nothing to do with Going to heaven. The same Scripture keeps on saying: 2 Corinthians 1:23-24: "I call God as my witness that it was in order to spare you that I did not return to Corinth. Not that we lord it over your faith, but we work with you for your joy, because it is by faith you stand firm." These same "anointed" DO NOT 'lord over one's faith.' Yet, the Witnesses Governing Body does just that repeatedly. Hope this has helped someone or at least been a good introduction to the forum