Posts by undertheradar

46

In your own words ... what is the truth?

by sacolton in

in one sentence, can you define what the real "truth" is?

not the watchtower version (we all know what that is)..

undertheradar

I meant to say

UNTRUTH IS WHATEVER CAUSES THE OPPOSITE OF THAT

46

In your own words ... what is the truth?

by sacolton in

in one sentence, can you define what the real "truth" is?

not the watchtower version (we all know what that is)..

undertheradar

My formula for truth is:

TRUTH CREATES JOY

&

PURE TRUTH CREATES PURE JOY

&

UNTRUTH IS WHATEVER IS THE OPPOSITE OF THAT

49

Is this our fate?

by paul from cleveland in

is there fate?

if so, are we fated to be the bad evil slave?.

if the bible prophecies that there will be an 'evil slave that falls away and beats his fellow slaves because the master is delaying' doesn't that mean that someone has to fulfill that prophecy otherwise the prophecy would be false?

undertheradar

WELL DONE PAUL

So pleased you took the excellent and caring advice you were given here.

I'd just like to add that, whether we believe in the 'Garden of Eden' story or not, it does convey the thought of how important freedom is. God risked everything to give Adam and Eve the freedom of choice.

You have the freedom to choose which thoughts you want to keep focusing on and which ones you don't.

You can choose to focus on your good points and stop blaming yourself. It takes effort to change our thoughts, but it gets easier, and it is so worthwhile.

7

HOW I GOT IN, THEN OUT, OF THE SEWER

by undertheradar in

i was replying to flippers re: did you exit the witnesses due to injustices/differences with doctrine - both?

and i found myself writing my experience and it got a bit long so i am posting here.

i am sorry i cant tell you my story more specifically but we have been front-page news in our area to do with our beliefs and some of the steps i have taken more recently to show my disgust at the injustices have been unique so it would be easy to recognise me.

undertheradar

Thanks for your comments.

Jadeen - Yes I at first I thought my congregation was the only one.

I was not keen on going back over things but until I did I had forgotten just how many and how awful those experiences were. As you said, it is worth it to share these stories as we all get strength from one another's experiences to never go back.

14

Helping those out, that I helped put in, or just stop meddling?

by undertheradar in

i was wrong when i was so sure i was right before.

.

i feel a responsibility but i am confused.. also, any ideas for preparing vulnerable family members prior to pulling the rug out from under them?.

undertheradar

RR - I am shocked. I hope they are better off there than with the witnesses. Have you had any contact with them since?

Black Sheep - Good tip. I have taken your advice with interesting results. The difficult bit is the patience.

Farkel and GL Tirebiter - Patience again for when they are ready. It took me about 30 years to finally see the light and all the things my parents warned me about to finally sink in, and then another 10 years to work it all out and do something about it!!!

lisavegas420 - Good advice. I have made a note of that.

BabaYaga - Yes thank you. I need to read those books.

Satanus & AllTimeJeff - You have got me thinking about responsibility, also forgiveness. And the legal obligations of the organisation, the extra responsibility that comes with position, the morality of those responsible. I haven't got Ray Franz's books yet but from the his comments that I have seen I'm sure his books will help.

Have we been brainwashed? Have we brainwashed others?

One thing I am learning from you, and the discussions on this site, is the importance of honoring our personal and others emotions and feelings, and not just the factual disscussion side of it.

Thanks for your comments.

36

Cautious Newcomer

by undertheradar in

jw
friends

i am still a member of the jw's organization.

i have been puzzled over some of the teachings for many years but as i seemed to be the only one querying things among my local jw's i felt as if i was going crazy.

i was very relieved to find this site, a few months ago, full of evidence to back up my findings, and so much more.. i am so grateful to you all.. i do not want to leave the organization until i have planted some seeds in my family to open their eyes.

undertheradar

Thank you for the welcome, to all of you who I have not yet thanked.

Sorry it has taken me so long, but I got a bit emotional, and couldn't bring myself to reply. I have never been very good at expressing my personal emotions to others, and feel a bit silly to admit I seem to have a bit of hero worship, which is a new experience for me, because you have all been heroes to me, over the last few months I was lurking. This is because of your courage in going against the organisation and all your unconditional love to one another, and the great humour, and even the honesty when you don't agree. It is so alien to the witness world. So when I'm suddenly reading of you welcoming me I was overwhelmed.

I am sure this will pass once I get to know you all better!

Just kidding.

Thanks again to all.

14

Is Jehovah a "Spirit"?

by cameo-d in

what exactly is a "spirit"?

is it invisible?

does it have form?

undertheradar

NWT Isaiah 40:13, 26, and 29 says "Who has taken the proportions of the spirit of Jehovah...Raise YOUR eyes high up and see who has created these things...Due to the abundance of dynamic energy, he also being vigorous in power...He is giving to the tired one power, and to the one without dynamic energy he makes full might abound."

Psalms 36:9 "For with you is the source of life, By light from you we can see light."

1 John 4:8 "God is love."

My understanding from these scriptures is that God is an ABUNDANT DYNAMIC ENERGY SOURCE of LIFE, and I think most scientists including Einstein and Michio Kaku (who was mentioned recently on this site) would not argue too much with that. These two men recognised the beauty that this source has produced, but the Bible also adds that this SOURCE is a LOVING SPIRIT.

We are also from this SOURCE of ENERGY and are ENERGY BEINGS, which to me is the same as saying that we have the SPIRIT of LIFE, and INSPIRATION EMPOWERS US. We speak of having bursts of energy, being fired up with spirit and all sorts of related expressions.

I don't know if I am making any sense. I no longer believe the Bible is the whole truth but I do believe there is a lot of truth in it and these expressions have the ring of truth to me.

67

Did You Exit the Witnesses Due to Injustices / Difference with Doctrine-Both?

by flipper in

jw
friends

many of us leave due to injustices committed inside the organization.

i did initially.

i had doubts about some doctrines for years - but not until after leaving the witnesses was i free to be able to confirm my suspicions and see that yes, i did have valid reasons to have doubts all those years .

undertheradar

For me it was a mixture of differences with the doctrine, injustices, and finding what spirituality really meant to me, not what I had been told it meant as a measurement of obedience to the GB and how many meetings had been attended and hours reported.

I started explaining this in more detail and it got too long so I have posted it as a personal experience.

RE: HOW I GOT IN, THEN OUT, THE SEWER

7

HOW I GOT IN, THEN OUT, OF THE SEWER

by undertheradar in

i was replying to flippers re: did you exit the witnesses due to injustices/differences with doctrine - both?

and i found myself writing my experience and it got a bit long so i am posting here.

i am sorry i cant tell you my story more specifically but we have been front-page news in our area to do with our beliefs and some of the steps i have taken more recently to show my disgust at the injustices have been unique so it would be easy to recognise me.

undertheradar

I was replying to Flipper’s RE: DID YOU EXIT THE WITNESSES DUE TO INJUSTICES/DIFFERENCES WITH DOCTRINE - BOTH? And I found myself writing my experience and it got a bit long so I am posting here.

I am sorry I can’t tell you my story more specifically but we have been front-page news in our area to do with our beliefs and some of the steps I have taken more recently to show my disgust at the injustices have been unique so it would be easy to recognise me. Remarkably with a lot of effort I have managed to do this while still being considered by most to be strong in the ‘Truth’ so I don’t want to blow my cover yet.

I am taking your advice to me as RE: CAUTIOUS NEWCOMER and RE: HELPING THOSE OUT THAT I HELPED PUT IN, OR JUST STOP MEDDLING, and taking it slow and asking a few hopefully seemingly innocent questions for a while to see if any relatives and friends will rethink their position before I reveal my true feelings.

I became a witness because I was looking for the CRYSTAL CLEAR WATERS OF TRUTH, after seeing the hypocrisy in Christendom. As a young couple, my newly-married partner and I thought we had found it when a witness knocked at our door.

I was not at all interested in the so-called paradise, it all looked boring to me. I was only interested in knowing the truth. I was not impressed by the 1914 date and other dates surrounding it. If they had already changed these dates I didn’t expect them to have any of their other dates right. But there were so many other things that resonated with me, and associating with the sincere, faithful, kind and fun-loving group of people that were in our congregation at that time, we were both hooked.

I loved the prophecies on the march of the world powers and the UN, they seemed clearer. I was dubious about ‘this generation’ as there were only a couple of scriptures mentioning it, but I obediently preached to others about it, as surely this great organization knew better than me. Also no one at that time had been telling me I had to believe everything I was told. Or if they did I hadn’t noticed. In fact it was emphasized keep checking and proving.

THE CRYSTAL CLEAR WATERS ARE STARTING TO BECOME A LITTLE MUDDY. I began reading and hearing that we should accept everything and I started worrying because I just didn’t. At that time we were having to learn about the dates surrounding Rutherford’s time and fitting them into timing in the Bible. These all sounded really ridiculous. I was feeling very guilty because I couldn’t accept it.

But life was good even though it was not easy keeping up the pace as children were now on the scene.

1975 came and went. I know many of you won’t like me saying this but it was not taken much notice of in our area. We didn’t seem to have heard all the hype others were experiencing. Also I worked in the ministry with a close friend of one of GB and it was obvious from the comments that at least that member was not expecting anything either. And still the dates and the paradise thing meant nothing to me personally. I was enjoying life just as it was. I liked the challenges and adventure. Ill health was my only struggle. I enjoyed giving others, that were not as happy as me, a hope for something different and did believe it would come one day.

A LITTLE MORE MUD ADDED TO THE WATERS

The congregation was growing. More elders moved in. I regular pioneered and loved it. I did not like the strange attitude of the elders and some in the congregation that as a pioneer I had now become their property and they could tell me what I should or should not be doing.

A BIGGER LUMP OF MUD

Some new ones in the congregation were not being welcomed and were badly treated. Some left the organisation. Some went and tried other congregations. There were some messy divorces that the elders didn’t seem to be handling very well, and I dutifully trusted their decisions, supposing there must be more to it than I understand so they must be right.

NOW I AM TREADING IN REALLY MURKY WATER AND DIDN’T EVEN REALISE IT. One of my relatives requested help. A judicial meeting was held and no action taken. I assumed it had been handled perfectly even though it resulted in that person falling away. Little did I know until years later how badly it had been handled causing the falling away. And how others who had repeatedly done far worse things were getting away with it.

NOW I REALLY KNOW I AM IN IT.

Changes in ‘the generation’. It horrified me that I had spent my life teaching something I had never really come to grips with in the first place. My trust was seriously damaged and on top of that hardly anyone seemed to notice the changes at all. I think I am going crazy. Why am I the only one concerned?

I AM DROWNING IN THE FILTHY WATER but there were other things to stop me thinking about it all. A member of my family was ill and needed caring for. The death of this very special, warm, loving, caring person, who was not a witness, was not expected.

LIFTED OUT OF THE SEWER

The death did not affect me in the way I would have thought. To lose someone that special who I was so close to, I expected it to have affected me badly. Oh yes there was some natural grieving but the profound experience I felt around the tine of the death left me feeling perfectly peaceful. No weird experiences, just this amazing feeling. I felt with a strong knowing that this person was still alive somehow in some sort of spiritual form. It really didn’t matter how, I just know witnesses had got this one wrong too. I was finding my paradise now.

CLEAR WATER, MUDDY WATER IT DID NOT MATTER ANYMORE.

I AM JUST DIPPING MY TOES IN THE SEWER TO STAY CLOSE TO MY FAMILY & NOT UPSET MY PARTNER.

More serious blows: My partners failing health and prolonged illness occupied my time. The elder spoke of how much they loved and appreciated my partner for what had been done for them, while at the same time causing serious neglect. The distress of my partner caused by this neglect was painful to watch and despite all endeavours from family members, congregation, Bethel and Circuit Overseer’s nothing changed.

An example I can give of the sort of callous behaviour involves a member of another congregation. He was wheelchair bound. A baptized publisher and in regular attendance at the kingdom hall. The congregation built a new kingdom hall and deliberately did not make wheelchair access for him!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I could fill a book with examples of this sort of behaviour.

During all this a ridiculous judicial committee was set up for another relative. A complete fiasco, bungling lies, you name it, it went on. Bethel ibecame nvolved to get someone to sort it out. It ended up with no action, and even some apologies, but the damage was done.

Also during this time the television programme about child abuse sickened me. The reaction of many witnesses friends to it shocked me. They were choosing not to believe it, brushing it under the carpet, saying anything they could think of, however stupid, to protect the organisation. Then came the revelations from some of my witness friends from other congregations that they had been victims, and I had never known. Brothers I had known and respected were disfellowshipped thankfully, but others got away with it as the victims were not believed.

Then my faithful ever-loving partner died and again I felt peace. It reinforced the different sort of spirituality I felt, far more loving and wonderful than anything I had felt all those years as a door-knocking witness. I do still enjoy some of the more upbuilding parts of the Bible, and I dismiss the rest. I am not sure whether to be grateful to the organisation for teaching me more about the Bible than I had before I joined them, and for the life lessons I've learnt from the experience, or just to be thankful I've all but escaped.

I have been blessed with a wonderful family and marriage partner and friends so I have much to be grateful for and intend to enjoy the rest of my life with or without those who will stick by me.

I’ve had a few years since to thoroughly examine my former witness beliefs, and especially after checking this site in the last few months there are only a few of my former beliefs hanging by a thread. One of them being the blood issue. There seem to be some health reasons for not taking blood but I certainly don’t think lives should be put at risk. Because of my circumstances I don’t have to get involved with field service or meeting attendance. I keep up by skimming the literature and concentrate only on positive and encouraging subjects so that I have something to discuss with family and friends.

I don’t bear any grudges against the above elders involved in our personal lives. They were doing what they thought was right and with inadequate training. And I don’t want the heavy burden that unforgiveness carries.

I am not sure what to make of the Governing Body. They are the ones carrying the heaviest responsibility. I have thought many times of writing to them. Maybe I will one day.

I look forward, when the time comes I can speak freely, to telling you some of the more hilarious times we’ve been on the receiving end of completely stupid behaviour, and how we managed to have the last laugh.

Meanwhile keep up the good work all of you. It is so much appreciated, and who knows, even if none of my family listen to me maybe someone will read this and it will help them. Or maybe I can make amends for the damage I've done witnessing to other, by contributing to this site.

67

Did You Exit the Witnesses Due to Injustices / Difference with Doctrine-Both?

by flipper in

jw
friends

many of us leave due to injustices committed inside the organization.

i did initially.

i had doubts about some doctrines for years - but not until after leaving the witnesses was i free to be able to confirm my suspicions and see that yes, i did have valid reasons to have doubts all those years .

undertheradar

Paul from Cleveland

Please listen to Mouthy.

The last time I saw a comment from her to you she said some things about what had happened to you that could make you angry. When we feel depressed we feel powerless. Getting angry gives us a feeling of power that can just be enough to motivate us out of the depression to go and do something about it. Obviously I don't mean to get angry enough to do any physical damage. Please read her comments again.

And remember we are in control of our thoughts, NOT the other way round. So look for some things about yourself you can feel good about and focus on them.