Matthew 25:14-30 has a follow up illustration which I find very interesting and relevant to Matthew 24:45. In this illustration there are 2 faithful slaves and 1 wicked slave. There is no indication in here that there was a single slave class.
Posts by pirata
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52So...the bible doesnt say to follow the faithful and discreet slave...CORRECT?
by Joliette inif i'm not mistaken, there is no bible verse to support following the 'faithful and discreet' slave?.
am i correct?
i know i have to research this, but to give me a jumpstart...?.
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'Unbiased' Study Bible or Commentary Recommendations?
by pirata inare there any commentaries or study bibles that anyone can recommend?
i'm not sure if it's possible to be 100% unbiased, but looking for something that tries to keep theological speculation, or scripture bending to fit theology, to a minumum.. esv study bible was referenced in another thread, but the description says it is "evangelical".
not sure if that indicates a theological bias or not..
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pirata
Are there any commentaries or Study Bibles that anyone can recommend? I'm not sure if it's possible to be 100% unbiased, but looking for something that tries to keep theological speculation, or scripture bending to fit theology, to a minumum.
ESV Study Bible was referenced in another thread, but the description says it is "evangelical". Not sure if that indicates a theological bias or not.
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WHY DOES THE WATCHTOWER TEACH THAT THERE WILL BE NO HUMANS IN HEAVEN?
by clarity in1 cor 15:51 says that our mortal bodies will be changed.
by giving up or taking off the physical body.
no.. not taking off ... but putting on incorruption and immortality.
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pirata
Thank you Chalam. Interesting that both sources indicates it is Paul's own experience. After the more concise ESV notes seem to be more logical.
I think I'm going to pick up a hard-copy of the ESV study bible, thanks for pointing to it!
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WHY DOES THE WATCHTOWER TEACH THAT THERE WILL BE NO HUMANS IN HEAVEN?
by clarity in1 cor 15:51 says that our mortal bodies will be changed.
by giving up or taking off the physical body.
no.. not taking off ... but putting on incorruption and immortality.
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pirata
Interesting scripture in 2 Cor. 12:2-4, I had not noticed that before (I think, in the past, my mind tended to gloss over scriptures that didn't fit in neatly with the doctrince I had already learned).
Extremely bizarre is the Watchtower's explanation of 2 Corinthians 12:2-4. In a nutshell, they say that the "man" is Paul himself, that the "heavens" are spiritual, and that "paradise" is the future spiritual paradise found among anointed Jehovah's Witnesses. This requires a serious stretching of the imagination!
w70 12/15 pp.767-768 QuestionsFromReaders
What is the "third heaven" and" paradise" to which 2 Corinthians 12:2,4 refers?—R.B.,U.S.A.
At 2 Corinthians 12:2-4 the apostle Paul describes one who was "caught away . . . to the third heaven" and "into paradise." Since there is no mention in the Scriptures of any other person having had such an experience, it seems likely that this was the apostle Paul’s own experience. Whereas some have endeavored to relate Paul’s reference to the "third heaven" to the early Rabbinical view that there were stages of heaven, even a total of "seven heavens," this view finds no support in the Scriptures.
When we examine the context, it becomes apparent that the apostle is not referring to the heavens within earth’s atmospheric expanse or to outer space. The apostle wrote: "I shall pass on to supernatural visions and revelations of the Lord. I know a man in union with Christ who, fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know; God knows—was caught away as such to the third heaven. . . . he was caught away into paradise and heard unutterable words which it is not lawful for a man to speak."—2 Cor. 12:1-4.
It therefore appears that the reference to the "third heaven" relates to the spiritual heavens and indicates the superlative degree of the rapture in which this vision was seen. In this regard, one can note the way words and expressions are repeated three times at Isaiah 6:3, Ezekiel 21:27, John 21:15-17 and Revelation 4:8, evidently for the purpose of expressing an intensification of the quality or idea.
Caught away to the "third heaven," the vision-viewer entered "paradise" and heard unutterable words. A key to understanding Paul’s description of the vision is found in the prophecies of the Hebrew Scriptures that relate to the restoration of God’s ancient people. Throughout many of the prophetic books of the Bible divine promises are found regarding the restoration of Israel from the lands of its exile to its desolated homeland. God would cause that abandoned land to be tilled and sown, to produce richly and to abound with humankind and animalkind; the cities would be rebuilt and inhabited and people would say: "That land yonder which was laid desolate has become like the garden of Eden."—Ezek. 36:6-11, 29, 30, 33-35; compare Isaiah 51:3; Jeremiah 31:10-12; Ezekiel 34:25-27.
However, these prophecies also show that paradise conditions related to the people themselves. By faithfulness to God, they could now "sprout" and flourish as "trees of righteousness," enjoying beautiful spiritual prosperity like a "well-watered garden," showered by bounteous blessings from God due to having his favor. (Isa. 58:11; 61:3, 11; Jer. 31:12; 32:41) The people of Israel had been God’s vineyard, his planting, but their badness and apostasy from true worship had caused a figurative ‘withering away’ of their spiritual field, even before the literal desolation of their land took place.—Compare Exodus 15:17; Isaiah 5:1-8; Jeremiah 2:21.
Thus the paradise envisioned by the apostle Paul could refer to a spiritual state among God’s people, as in the case of fleshly Israel. This can be seen from the fact that the Christian congregation was also God’s "field under cultivation," his spiritual vineyard, rooted in Jesus Christ and bearing fruit to God’s praise. (1 Cor. 3:9; John 15:1-8) As such it had replaced the nation of Israel in God’s favor.—Compare Matthew 21:33-43.
Paul’s vision, nevertheless, must logically have applied to some future time. An apostasy was due to set in among the Christian congregation, was already working in Paul’s day, and would result in a condition like that of a field oversown with weeds. (Matt. 13:24-30, 36-43; Acts 20:29; 2 Thess. 2:3, 7; compare Hebrews 6:7, 8.) So, Paul’s paradise vision would not reasonably apply while such was the case. Rather, it would evidently relate to the time of the "harvest season" when the genuine Christians would be gathered by the angelic reapers and would enjoy rich blessings and spiritual prosperity from God.
The anointed footstep followers of Jesus Christ who are living today are indeed enjoying a spiritual paradise, as can be seen from the spiritual prosperity now evident among them. In fact, the spiritual prosperity today under God’s established kingdom is more glorious than that enjoyed during the apostolic days, the initial period of Christianity. Sharing in today’s spiritual prosperity are the "great crowd" of "other sheep" who look forward to enjoying a literal paradise here on the earth in the near future.—Rev. 21:1-4.
2 Corinthians 12:2-4 (New International Version)
2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows. 3 And I know that this man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows— 4 was caught up to paradise. He heard inexpressible things, things that man is not permitted to tell.
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Art that expresses feelings as victims of the Jehovah's Witness cult
by TastingFreedom insome may think that mind control is forceful manipulation of a person.
it is possible to create a "frankenstein" by coercive manipulation and thought control.
it is a process in which an organization, a group or individual systematically uses unethically manipulative methods to persuade others to conform to the wishes of the manipulator(s), often to the detriment of the person being manipulated.
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Moment of madness: A zealots plea for tolerance
by behemot inmoment of madness: a zealots plea for toleranceby andrew mueller.
published: september 17 2010 22:37 | last updated: september 17 2010 22:37. it is passing no judgment on the veracity of religious beliefs to observe that the most enthusiastic adherents of any dogma tend towards the humourless.
the maintenance of faith requires a determination to ignore the contradictions with which life is vexingly replete.
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pirata
Good find!
“They are not content to keep their views to themselves." I brought that quote up with some JWs, and they did not get the irony of it.
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following Re: new feature and brotherdans comment
by booby in***w071/1p.30par.18"thefirstresurrection"-nowunderway***.
will all the anointed receive their heavenly reward before the war of armageddon?
he evidently meant that the lives of the anointed who were on hand when the sign began to become evident in 1914 would overlap with the lives of other anointed ones who would see the start of the great tribulation.. .
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pirata
This is a major reason why JWs can hardly ever explain this stuff when pressed.
Exactly. I never actually consciously thought about that until I took a closer look at this post. I had also forgotten the stuff blondie mentioned.
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following Re: new feature and brotherdans comment
by booby in***w071/1p.30par.18"thefirstresurrection"-nowunderway***.
will all the anointed receive their heavenly reward before the war of armageddon?
he evidently meant that the lives of the anointed who were on hand when the sign began to become evident in 1914 would overlap with the lives of other anointed ones who would see the start of the great tribulation.. .
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pirata
The 2007 quote is saying that we do not know if all the annointed will die before the start of Armageddon, or if some would see the start of armageddon.
The second quote is concerning the start of The Great Tribulation.
The "Faithful Slave" teaches that Armageddon is the Climax of the Great Tribulation. The great tribulation starts, continues for a while, and then the War of Armageddon climaxes and ends the Great Tribulation.
As you mentioned, the two quotes above do not really conflict, but lead one to the conclusion that some annointed would be around to see the start of the Great Tribulation, but it is not known if they will receive their "heavenly reward" before the climax of the Great Tribulation (Armageddon).
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following Re: new feature and brotherdans comment
by booby in***w071/1p.30par.18"thefirstresurrection"-nowunderway***.
will all the anointed receive their heavenly reward before the war of armageddon?
he evidently meant that the lives of the anointed who were on hand when the sign began to become evident in 1914 would overlap with the lives of other anointed ones who would see the start of the great tribulation.. .
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pirata
The light gets logarithmically brighter as the end nears!
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144,000
by the prospector inhow can the gb teach that the number 144,000 at rev 7.4 is a literal fixed number?.
they teach that the 12 tribes of 12,000 each at rev 7.5-8 are symbolic and the anointed don't have to be literal israelites.. so either all of it is literal or all of the descriptions of these numbers in rev are symbolic also?.
the prospector.
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pirata
I consider myself a somewhat "serious JW lurker" and I have no idea if it's symbolic or literal. If the entire book of revelation were literal, and we really got to see many headed dragons and a whore riding a wild beast, that would be a sight to see. I find it improbable however that most, if not all, the book of Revelation is symbolic, but the number 144,000 is not. That, and that fact that there were hundreds of thousands of Christian Martyrs, in the first century alone, who died instead of compromising their beliefs. Then again, the holy spirit does not reaveal the "deep" truths of God to me, he only reveals those to the representatives of the Faithful slave at Brooklyn Headquarters...
The official JW teaching is that the 144,000 is literal because it is contrasting a specific number with a un-numbered "great crowd".
