Posts by pirata

64

Call me paranoid, but its possible that this 30 hour initiative is a weeding out process....a cull if you will...

by miseryloveselders in

jw
friends

we've discussed a few potential reasons why the wt is promoting april 2011 as a month of special activity.

reasons include manipulating statistics, and trying to provide some kind of spark to increasingly apathetic and discouraged congregations.

i'm sure there are others i'm missing too, feel free to include those.

pirata

I think it is reading a bit too much into things, but I had the exact same thought as you! One JW asked me if I was going to aux. pioneer in April, so I quoted the scripture in the letter and said that I will do as I have resolved in my heart, not under compulsion. I got a funny look from that. It's possible that some are going to see me as having a bad attitude or stubborn for not pioneering in April when it's "so easy".

A lot of brothers and sisters in my hall are happy, "how loving is the faithful slave, now I too can pioneer". The thing is you can always put in 30+ hours in the field ministry, you just don't have that label of achievement attached to it.

I think the real intention is a pilot project to see if the total results (hours/placements) from more 30+ hr aux pioneers exceed the results from 50+ hr aux pioneers. If succesfull, I wouldn't be suprised to see it become permanent.

95

What is a false prophet?

by Spade in

if jehovahs witnesses are false-prophets, who can we look to as a prophet(s)?.

http://www.watchtower21.org/2011/01/what-is-false-prophet.html.

a false prophet as described in the old testament under the mosaic law covenant:.

pirata

I personally believe speaking in tongues, prophesying, and any diving knowledge beyond what has been provided in the Bible has ceased:

(1 Corinthians 13:8-12) 8 Love never fails. But whether there are [gifts of] prophesying, they will be done away with; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will be done away with. 9 For we have partial knowledge and we prophesy partially; 10 but when that which is complete arrives, that which is partial will be done away with. 11 When I was a babe, I used to speak as a babe, to think as a babe, to reason as a babe; but now that I have become a man, I have done away with the [traits] of a babe. 12 For at present we see in hazy outline by means of a metal mirror, but then it will be face to face. At present I know partially, but then I shall know accurately even as I am accurately known. (NWT)

So, I don't think there are any "true prophets" today that make new prophecies beyond what the Bible has provided or tries to pinpoint specific predictions that strain the credibility based on the highly symbolic prophecies provided in the Bible, or by tying together a number of prophecies and calculations to make a unique application to our day.

More than a few Christian groups thoroughout history have tried to guess what a prophecy means, make up a "second fulfillment", or try to make it fit modern day events (an occurence among different Christian religions it seems, I remember a Christian studen''ts report in high school applying a prophecy in Isaiah where "arrows" were a prophesy of "rockets" in the Middle East conflicts.). In regards to the Watchtower Society, it seems that that after the 1975 incident, and with the change that the governing body must decide on any new or changes in official teachings, that we will not see any individuals guesses/predictions allowed to make it into official teachings. The organization now seems to be following the advice given that same year.:

*** w75 7/1 p. 389 Mideastern Events—Do They Fulfill Prophecy? ***
Of course, devoted servants of God are rightly concerned with what is happening in fulfillment of Bible prophecy. They are like the Hebrew prophets of ancient times who were keenly interested in the fulfillment of their spirit-inspired utterances about the Messiah or Christ. At 1 Peter 1:10, 11, we read: “A diligent inquiry and a careful search were made by the prophets who prophesied about the undeserved kindness meant for you. They kept on investigating what particular season or what sort of season the spirit in them was indicating concerning Christ when it was bearing witness beforehand about the sufferings for Christ and about the glories to follow these.”
However, we should not go beyond what a particular prophecy actually says. Bible prophecies cannot be understood in full detail until the events to which they point take place. So we do well not to speculate as to what certain happenings in the Middle East or elsewhere may or may not mean.
Such speculation can lead to one’s becoming off balance and deeply involved with matters that actually have little or nothing to do with the building up of faith. A person might also spend much time that could otherwise be used far more profitably in gaining spiritual strength

Incidentally, after Rutherford's prediction for 1925 did not come to pass, he admitted :

*** w84 10/1 p. 24 ‘Jehovah Has Dealt Rewardingly With Me’ ***
Regarding his misguided statements as to what we could expect in 1925, he once confessed to us at Bethel, “I made an ass of myself.”

Rutherford seemed to have learned from this incident and although there were some other suggestions in regards to dates, he never again made one officially so strongly as the one he did for 1925. The 1975 excitement came up after Rutherford has passed away and the vice-president, Fred Franz, had speculated that it would be extremely fitting for Armageddon to come after 6000 years of man's existence, which he calculated to be 1975. A bit of wiggle room was added by saying that the 6000 years would be measured from when Eve was created (not Adam), but then this teaching was abandoned soon after. So, no Fred never said that it "will" come, but since it was coming from the Faithful Slave, it was taken by many JWs and Society representaives as are more than just a "maybe".

The next preditions coming up are the Christian groups that say Jesus MIGHT be coming on dates this years such as May 14 2011 ( http://www.jonathanselby.com/May14,2011.html ), or May 21, 2011. I have seen billboards advertising this date. Of course, by saying "MIGHT", they have provided the technicality they need to say that they never said it was a certainty.

When it comes down to it, the Apostle John (written after 70CE) thought the end was near, all Christian groups in the past 2000 years applied prophecies to their own times and felt the end was near. Conclusion? Take Jesus advice: (Matthew 24:42) "Keep on the watch, therefore, because YOU do not know on what day YOUR Lord is coming." Whether the end is coming tomorrow or not in our lifeteime, that time element should not be an important factor in our Christian faith. Not knowing when the end is coming should keep a Christian just as watchful, if not more, than if they knew the date.

20

Discovering Mortality

by pirata in

jw
friends

most of my life i never gave thought to my mortality because i'd be petting a lion forever in the new system.

my hobby could wait because i would have time to pursue it as a perfect being in a paradise.

dying was not a huge deal because i'd wake up in a paradise earth.. then i woke up.

pirata

LOL @ unshackled! :)

26

A certain "special program", or an "organizational adjustment"?

by possible-san in

well, in a certain bulletin board (2ch) in japan, the boe letter dated january 19 (?

), 2011 has become a topic of conversation.. that is connected with a certain "special program/organizational adjustment.".

do you know something about this?.

pirata

There was a January 19, 2010 letter regarding how Ministerial Servants can be used in the congregation when there are not enough elders...

16

ExJWs and NonJWs Ask: Should I Try to Change My Mate?

by pirata in

jw
friends

i put this together more as a collection of my thoughts.

i would appreciate hearing your thoughts, disagreements, rebuttals, etc on this subject as it has been weighing a lot on my mind lately:.

after reading a lot of heart-breaking stories over the years on this message forum about mates who no longer believe in the jw religion, the common thread seems to be a desire to get the jw mate to see the same thing; with usually dissapointing results.. i am currently of the opinion that maybe the best thing is not to try to change your mate's religion.

pirata

That would be all well and fine if only the witness mate would reciprocate. In large measure, most of them will not. They would be just as determined to get you back into the religion as you are to get them out. They will continually rag on anything not stamped with the WT seal of approval and expect you to sit there and take it even if you are of the opinion that there is nothing terribly wrong with the issue. If the conversation deviates to anything critical of the WT Soceity you're labeled the troublemaker and fault-finder when in fact, it is them on not seeing anything positive in the world.

@out4good3. That is a good point. It has to work both ways. I looked through all the Watchtower Library and their is a pittance of articles that deal with living with a mate who is an ex-JW. The most current one that discussed this at length was in 1952 (but let me know if I missed a newer one). Some of the JWs have mentioned on other message boards that this would be similar to living with an unbelieving mate. BUT, articles such as the following basically say that the now-unbelieving mate is under Satan's influence:

***

w52 11/15 p.704 QuestionsFromReaders***

God’s law does not allow a marriage partner to dismiss his mate because his mate becomes disfellowshiped or apostatizes. Neither will the law of the land in most cases allow a divorce to be granted on such grounds. The faithful believer and the apostate or disfellowshiped mate must legally continue to live together and render proper marriage dues one to the other

Satan’s influence through the disfellowshiped member of the family will be to cause the other member or members of the family who are in the truth to join the disfellowshiped member in his course or in his position toward God’s organization. To do this would be disastrous, and so the faithful family member must recognize and conform to the disfellowship order. How would or could this be done while living under the same roof or in personal, physical contact daily with the disfellowshiped? In this way: By refusing to have religious relationship with the disfellowshiped.

The marriage partner would render the marriage dues according to the law of the land and in due payment for all material benefits bestowed and accepted. But to have religious communion with the disfellowshiped person—no, there would be none of that! The faithful marriage partner would not discuss religion with the apostate or disfellowshiped and would not accompany that one to his (or her) place of religious association and participate in the meetings with that one. As Jesus said: “If he does not listen even to the congregation [which was obliged to disfellowship him], let him be to you just as a man of the nations and as a tax collector [to Jehovah’s sanctified nation].” (Matt. 18:17, NW) Hurt to such one would not be authorized, but there would be no spiritual or religious fellowshiping.

The purpose of observing the disfellowship order is to make the disfellowshiped one realize the error of his way and to shame him, if possible, so that he may be recovered, and also to safeguard your own salvation to life in the new world in vindication of God. (2 Thess. 3:14, 15; Titus 2:8) Because of being in close, indissoluble natural family ties and being of the same household under the one roof you may have to eat material food and live physically with that one at home, in which case 1 Corinthians 5:9-11 and 2 John 10 could not apply; but do not defeat the purpose of the congregation’s disfellowship order by eating spiritual or religious food with such one or receiving such one favorably in a religious way and bidding him farewell with a wish for his prosperity in his apostate course.

20

Discovering Mortality

by pirata in

jw
friends

most of my life i never gave thought to my mortality because i'd be petting a lion forever in the new system.

my hobby could wait because i would have time to pursue it as a perfect being in a paradise.

dying was not a huge deal because i'd wake up in a paradise earth.. then i woke up.

pirata

Thank you all for your input. I really appreciate it.

In summary:

Do not fear death. Do not handicap your life now by worrying about death. Accept that it is coming. Make each day count. Live an honorable and enjoyable life. Any afterlife is bonus. Leave behind a positive contribution by the way you've lived your life.

This reminds me of dialogue from the scene at the end of the movie "Star Trek:Generations":

Picard: "Someone once told me that time was a predator that stalked us all our lives. I rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey and reminds us to cherish every moment, because it will never come again. What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived. After all Number One, we're only mortal."
Riker: "Speak for yourself sir, I plan to live forever."

PS. @elderelite, after reading the quotes you provided, I finally understand where the Klingon culture comes from.

30

Is there any real difference...

by undercover in

jw
friends

...between a group of people who wear sandwich board signs, hold up signs, hand out handbills or put up billboards with the messages of: .

"religion is a snare and a racket"; " millions now living will never die"; "live forever in paradise".

and people who hold up signs, hand out handbills or put up billboards that say: .

pirata

I like bohm's suggestions. People close their minds to direct attacks. A statement like "is it fair to ask other to examine their beliefs critically, but never perform a similar examination of your own?" is more likely to get people to think.

16

ExJWs and NonJWs Ask: Should I Try to Change My Mate?

by pirata in

jw
friends

i put this together more as a collection of my thoughts.

i would appreciate hearing your thoughts, disagreements, rebuttals, etc on this subject as it has been weighing a lot on my mind lately:.

after reading a lot of heart-breaking stories over the years on this message forum about mates who no longer believe in the jw religion, the common thread seems to be a desire to get the jw mate to see the same thing; with usually dissapointing results.. i am currently of the opinion that maybe the best thing is not to try to change your mate's religion.

pirata

I put this together more as a collection of my thoughts. I would appreciate hearing your thoughts, disagreements, rebuttals, etc on this subject as it has been weighing a lot on my mind lately:

-------------------------------------------------------------

After reading a lot of heart-breaking stories over the years on this message forum about mates who no longer believe in the JW religion, the common thread seems to be a desire to get the JW mate to see the same thing; with usually dissapointing results.

I am currently of the opinion that maybe the best thing is NOT to try to change your mate's religion. Agree to disagree. Don't discuss religion. If you have a spiritual need, discuss it with others and focus on common interests that you have with your mate.

Ccriticizing the Watchtower, or the Awake, or the governing body, or the brothers and sisters, makes you look more like an enemy than a friend; at least from the JW mates point of view. This puts up their defences and causes a more of a strain in the marriage. When their defences are up, they're not listening anyways.

The time may come when your mate reaches out to you for information. They may have doubts and appreciate that they have someone they can discuss it with. Or not. Live with the realization that they may never change, and make the best of your marriage. If the JW mate is the one that is refusing to make the marriage work, then you have tried your best. If they are willing to give it a go, then you may still have a good thing.

Your JW mate may try to informally witness from time to time. This gives you opportunities to express your thoughts on what they say. A two-way informal witness of sorts. I would think that keeping positive, making new friends, speaking kindly of your JW family and former JW associates that are shunning you may be a powerful "witness" in itself.

5

Have your Critical Thinking skills improve since you found this site.

by jam in

critical thinking clarifies goals, examines assumptions, discern hidden.

values, evaluates evidence, accomplishes action, and assesses conclusions.. using strong critical thinking we might evaluate an argument, for example,.

as worthy of acceptence because it is valid and base on true premises.. fluid intelligence; directly correlates with critical thinking skills.

pirata

Before I joined this site I thought critical thinking was criticizing.

After learning about this site I discovered that it means being perceptive.

Exposure to this site motivated me to learn about logical fallacies and other means of persuasion.

42

My Marriage Ending...Or Other Options

by doinmypart in

i don't usually post regarding my personal relationship, but i need some help.. i've been married for 20+ years (married young, both of us raised as witnesses), and my wife and i have kids.

my wife feels like i've disappointed her, made a fool of her, and betrayed her when i stopped being a witness.

other than the witness-thing we seem to have a pretty good marriage, but she can't get over the fact that i'm never going to be a witness again.

pirata

There is an interesting discussion regarding religiously divided households here: http://www.religioustolerance.org/ifm_diff.htm

With the most suitable application being this one:

6. Diversity:

If the spouses have a high level of commitment to their faith, any form of compromise may be intolerable. Each spouse may choose to follow their past religious heritage, separately. They would continue to go to their own religious services and celebrate different holy days. This is considered the least desirable approach by many couples, because it reduces the amount of time that they spend together and diminishes the level of companionship in their marriage. This may be compensated for by a substitute joint activity.

A crisis may develop if the couple has children. One spouse may be willing to give their partner complete religious freedom of belief and practice. But they may not be able to tolerate what they see as teaching "lies" to the children. One "religious skeptic" posted to a thirties-something Internet list: "I...am having trouble raising our children in 'her' church when I don't support it or many of its doctrines."

Dr. Willard F. Harley of Marriage Builders 2 recommends that whenever a conflict arises, to:

	set ground rules to make negotiations pleasant and safe
	have a time out if you reach an impasse
	remain respectful and nonjudgmental at all times
	identify the problem, so that each spouse can state the other's position accurately
	brainstorm solutions, without evaluating their worth or practicality
	choose the most appealing solution

Dr. Hurley writes: "...marriage (and children) will thrive only if spouses put each other's feelings before the dictates of their religious convictions. It doesn't mean that religious convictions must be abandoned. It simply means that you must live your faith in a way that accommodates the feelings of your spouse."

The "diversity" option may be the only viable one in situations where both spouses are strongly attached to their separate faith groups.