Posts by MrMonroe

23

Are Faith and Reason Compatible? Jan Awake

by DanaBug in

here's some quotes from that article:.

the bible says, for example, that if your worship is to be acceptable to god, it must be a sacred service with your power of reason.

in other words, you must worship god in a way that is worthy of thinking beings.

MrMonroe

faith based on falsehood is only a delusion.

How very true. And yet how many Witnesses could explain the factual basis on which they believe the doctrines of the WTS? Please explain:

The significance of 1914, in view of the fact that the "pivotal" date of 607 is demonstrably wrong.
Biblical proof that God has a Christian "organization" and that that organization is the WTS.
Why he has a "faithful and discreet slave" to "feed" his followers, yet there is no process by which individual members of that are able to influence beliefs and practices of Jehovah's Witnesses.
The process by which the Governing Body arrives at its doctrines, and why fundamental "truths" that were once given as proof that God had bestowed its blessing on this "organization" have since completely changed.
What "slave class" CT Russell consulted with when he formed the Bible Students and established Watchtower doctrines.
Why JF Rutherford, who introduced major, fundamental changes to both WTS doctrines and the nature of the organization, achieved this only after he opposed, and then sacked, a majority of the WTS board of directors in 1917 (subsequently described as the governing body of true Christians) and yet is still considered to have been acting in accord with theocratic governance.
Why the reference to 144,000 in Revelation is treated as literal, but every other number is symbolic.
Why the practice of shunning individuals and family members who make a conscientious decision to leave a religious denomination, which is clearly contrary to the teachings of Christ, is cited as evidence of Christ's active direction of his organization.

57

December 15th WT gives example of sister who quit her job so she could go to an convention.

by life is to short in

i was beyond mad when i heard this.

it is on page 30 of the wt.. it says "a pioneer named roxana is one who has seen how jehovah provides for his people.

when she asked her employer for permission to take some days off to attend one of our conventions, he angrily retorted that if she went, he would fire her.

Output at that factory will presumably plummet several times a year as workers tell their boss they need ANOTHER weekend off to go to an idoctrination session and reduced hours so they can go pioneering. The boss won't mind; he'll be confident Jehovah will cover all costs.

35

this from march 15 tower

by therevealer in

is this just to inane for words.

most of the lumber looks sawn rather than hewn.

are they planning or arguing?

MrMonroe

I recall about 10 years ago being transfixed in a Watchtower study with an illustration of Noah's family building the ark. They had rather stupidly butted the planks together without any support behind them. I thought to myself, whatever idiots in Brooklyn drew that picture clearly had never laid their hands on timber, hammer and nails. Nor had the even bigger idiots who had approved it.

36

District Assembly Dramas - where the heck do they come from?

by babygirl30 in

despite growing up a jw i was always curious where this corny plays came from?

my best memories of them were when they used to turn the lights out in the convention center - cause that meant i could sleep!!!

but seriously, who writes them?

MrMonroe

"Shame on you, Jookbeard. You are speaking as one of the senseless ones." (Raising arms in the air). "For my part, I will stick with what is good and righteous. May Je HO vah curse you!"

47

Why do JW's only pick on Birthdays, Holidays, when so many other things are pagan

by Joliette in

jw
friends

i've always wondered this, and with the holidays coming up, why does the watchtower only pick on certain things, and leave other things to question, or to the conscience?.

MrMonroe

Some Old Light:

Watchtower, December 1904, pg 364: " EVEN though Christmas day is not the real anniversary of our Lord's birth, but more properly the annunciation day or the date of his human begetting ( Luke 1:28 ), nevertheless, since the celebration of our Lord's birth is not a matter of divine appointment or injunction, but merely a tribute of respect to him, it is not necessary for us to quibble particularly about the date. We may as well join with the civilized world in celebrating the grand event on the day which the majority celebrate --"Christmas day."

The Golden Age, December 24, 1919, page 215: "Christmas is regarded by many people as the date of the birth of the babe Jesus in a manger at Bethlehem. Whether the date is correct or not is of small importance, but the event was and is of the greatest importance."

Then the New Light:

Yearbrook, 1975, page 147: “At our early conventions, between sessions as the friends were chatting together,” writes Anna E. Zimmerman, “you might have seen some friends hand you their ‘Manna’ book [Daily Heavenly Manna for the Household of Faith], asking you to please write your name and address in their ‘Manna.’ You would write it on the blank page opposite the date of your birthday, and when your birthday came along and they read their text that morning for the day they might decide to write you a card or letter, wishing you a happy birthday.”

Yes, in those earlier days, dedicated Christians commemorated birthdays. Well, then, why not celebrate the supposed birthday of Jesus? This they also did for many years. In Pastor Russell’s day, Christmas was celebrated at the old Bible House in Allegheny, Pennsylvania. Ora Sullivan Wakefield recalls that Brother Russell gave members of the Bible House family five- or ten-dollar gold pieces at Christmas. Mabel P. M. Philbrick remarks: “A custom that certainly would not be carried on today was the celebration of Christmas with a Christmas tree in the Bethel dining room. Brother Russell’s usual ‘Good morning, all’ was changed to ‘Merry Christmas, all.’”

What caused the Bible Students to stop celebrating Christmas? Richard H. Barber gave this answer: “I was asked to give an hour talk over a [radio] hookup on the subject of Christmas. It was given December 12, 1928, and published in The Golden Age #241 and again a year later in #268. That talk pointed out the pagan origin of Christmas. After that, the brothers at Bethel never celebrated Christmas again.”

“Did we mind putting those pagan things away?” asks Charles John Brandlein. “Absolutely not. This was just complying with new things learned, and we had never known before they were pagan. It was just like taking a soiled garment off and throwing it away.” Next, birthday celebrations and Mother’s Day were discarded—more creature worship. Sister Lilian Kammerud recalls: “How readily the brothers all dropped these holidays and admitted they were glad to be free. New truths always make us happy and . . . we felt we were privileged to know things that others were ignorant about.”

36

District Assembly Dramas - where the heck do they come from?

by babygirl30 in

despite growing up a jw i was always curious where this corny plays came from?

my best memories of them were when they used to turn the lights out in the convention center - cause that meant i could sleep!!!

but seriously, who writes them?

MrMonroe

The dramas were all written on the basis of "Evidently". The assumptions were just preposterous! I'd often try to follow it along in the Bible and be thinking, "Sheesh, where the hell are they getting this stuff?"

My favorite expression was when the good guy (who would represent the true god Je HO Vah!) would berate the doubter in his midst, telling him, "Oh Bithelemel, You are speaking as one of the senseless ones!"

9

from a witness e-mail site - this proves that there is no creature worship, not!

by therevealer in

one of my favorite experiences ever was when bro.

barr was the bethel speaker at one of our district conventions.

he was sitting in the section where i served as an attendant.

MrMonroe

Not sure which GB member it was on Channel 9. It was in 2005, and an excerpt from the program was in their end-of-year wrapup here: http://sgp1.paddington.ninemsn.com.au/sunday/cover_stories/article_1920.asp?s=1

If anyone taped it and can could upload the program to YouTube, I'd be very grateful.

9

from a witness e-mail site - this proves that there is no creature worship, not!

by therevealer in

one of my favorite experiences ever was when bro.

barr was the bethel speaker at one of our district conventions.

he was sitting in the section where i served as an attendant.

MrMonroe

Utterly sickening. The picture is quite a contrast with the image that remains in my mind from when an Australian Channel 9 current affairs show, "Sunday", attempted to put some questions to a GB member at a district convention some years ago. The story was about (you guessed it) shameful handling of child sex abuse cases in a Melbourne congregation. The GB member kept walking away, studiously ignoring the interviewer, who was persistent but courteous. I was already becoming disenchanted with the "loving brothers" in the org, but that display of contempt and arrogance was a shocker.

23

Rutherford's Doctrines are Dead and so are the Reasons for JWs House-to-House Ministry

by AndersonsInfo in

terry, a very astute poster on jwn recently started the following thread of interest:.

when i read the posts on terrys thread, i was reminded that in my last two articles, which can be read on freeminds and were posted recently on jwn by randy watters, i discussed the changes made to two major old watch tower doctrines that have definitely affected todays door to door ministry of jehovahs witnesses: .

1) the teaching, vindicate jehovah's name," officially changed in 1993, after seven decades of use, to "sanctify jehovah's name" (which is more in line with the lord's prayer, "let your name be sanctified").

MrMonroe

In his "Apocalypse Delayed", Jim Penton commented (p.298) on the WTS's use of witnessing as a device to reduce the levels of dissent within its ranks. He quotes Robert P. Carroll ("When Prophecy Failed: Cognitive Dissonance in the Prophetic Tradition of the Old Testament") who wrote:

"One of the major ways in which dissonance may be reduced is for a group committed to a certain set of cognitive beliefs to engage in proselytizing activities."

Penton notes that strategy is:

"...something which Witness leaders have evidently recognized since Russell's day and recently stressed again ... as noted by sociologists Festinger, Riecken and Schachter in 1956 and Robert Carroll 20 years later: 'As more and more believers join the group the strength of the dissonance-producing event is steadily eroded and becomes less and less a source of significant cognitive dissonance'. This is, however, only one way in which proselytizing may be important. By encouraging believers to engage in it, the society knows they will have less time and energy to concern themselves with 'heretical' thoughts. Hence, Witness leaders have recently placed strong emphasis on the preaching work and have urged ordinary Witnesses to 'keep busy in the work of the Lord'."

And ain't that so? I recall in the 1980s, as a freshly baptized Witness, becoming more absorbed in the whole Witness myth by mere virtue of having to explain it myself. When you discern gaps in the story, you make haste to paper over them yourself as you deliver it. Even towards the end of my term as a Witness, I had a months-long Bible study with two women and I remember commenting to the woman I took to the study that it may not have benefited the students much, but boy, it helped reinforce my own belief. Why? Because I had to deliver it in a convincing way! It makes me feel so stupid now that I thought that way.

Back in 1966 the Watchtower pointed out: "To help to protect his people today from the false course of mingling with the nations and learning their works, Jehovah has made arrangements through his organization for his people to spend five hours each week at congregational meetings." (Jan 15, pg 44). It's a curiously ambiguous statement. Were those five hours a week necessary for the training, or was the point of the exercise the five hours themselves, keeping the Witnesses at meetings instead of allowing them to be at home or at the sportsground or picture theatre? Since Rutherford's day the WTS has always wanted to keep its people busy. The busier they are, the less time they have to think and examine.

Therefore any reason to keep the Witnesses witnessing is valid. Make them feel guilty, make them feel obliged. Anything to keep them out there and active.

5

Once the Org has its claws in you ...

by MrMonroe in

almost three years after quitting meetings, and receiving only the most minimal, perfunctory interest from one elder (one visit six months later and no questions or expressions of interest from the congo members we thought were our "friends") i received a phone call last night from that elder, demanding an explanation for a recent action of mine.

i told him i had no interest in discussing my actions with him and that it was strange that after three years of silence only now has he contacted me for a "chat", because he has taken offence at something.

(so much for looking for the lost sheep ... remember the nov 15, 2008 wt study articles, ""help those who stray from the flock?

MrMonroe

Almost three years after quitting meetings, and receiving only the most minimal, perfunctory interest from one elder (one visit six months later and NO questions or expressions of interest from the congo members we thought were our "friends") I received a phone call last night from that elder, demanding an explanation for a recent action of mine. I told him I had no interest in discussing my actions with him and that it was strange that after three years of silence only now has he contacted me for a "chat", because he has taken offence at something. (So much for looking for the lost sheep ... remember the Nov 15, 2008 WT study articles, ""Help Those Who Stray From the Flock? Why in God's name do they "study" those articles when they have no intention of applying the information?)

What gets me is that no matter how long you've been gone, they still consider you're in their control, that they have the right to demand explanations about the decisions I take in my life. I think this guy was quite taken aback that I rebuffed him. I told him the phone call was inappropriate, that I had never wanted to discuss my reasons for leaving and still didn't.

Weirdly, he said twice that he "knew" I'd had "issues with the brothers". I still have no idea who or what he's referring to, but I don't doubt for a moment my wife and I have been the subject of much gossip over the past three years. When someone leaves without explanation, they have to come up with some "reason" and I'm guessing they decided we'd been "stumbled" or that we were too headstrong or independent or disobedient or some crap. Poor Witnesses have so little to do in their lives outside meetings and witnessing, the drama of someone's departure and speculation over their reasons provides a little excitement until the next case of adultery or disfellowshipping or reproof.

So what happens now? Is me ticking him off counted as "brazen conduct"? Will he be so affronted that he summons other elders, blows it up and decides it's time he dealt with me to keep the congregation clean? If he does try to establish a JC, I'll play Page 73 of the Shepherding the Flock book to the letter: (a) I don't describe myself as a Witness, (b) I doubt half the congregation would even know who I am, (c) I have no interest in attending any committee meetings or meeting any elder because it's all in the past and I've moved on .... but I'll tell him if they go ahead, to please themselves because it won't affect me one way or the other.